Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

[IlluminationDomination]

One question that, surprisingly hasn't come up yet... does this phasing out also affect the Eneloop line of batteries? AA's and AAA's are also cylindrical, aren't they?

Good question. I do not know. Liionwholesale ONLY sells Li. Ion batteries and that was the only chemistry he was referring to.

 

[iamlucky13]

One question that, surprisingly hasn't come up yet... does this phasing out also affect the Eneloop line of batteries? AA's and AAA's are also cylindrical, aren't they?

There's no confirmed phase out of any Panasonic/Sanyo batteries.

We're hearing this from a discount wholesaler. They probably are getting information from a commercial distributor. We don't know what Panasonic has actually told the distributor, but there is a limited amount of information on future plans they can tell distributors without first notifying shareholders, which would then make it public info. So we're hearing this 4th hand.

In fact, Panasonic's latest annual report says they plan to continue increasing battery production to remain the top global producer.

Given the scale of their business relationship with an industrial customer who plans to within the next year or two be using over 1 billion cells a year, I don't believe for one second that Panasonic is simply getting out of the cylindrical battery business. However, there's several things going on that could create such an impression:

1.) Rapidly growing battery demand means it is a lucrative market. That may mean some other company could seek to buy Panasonic's battery business from them. If the price their offering is high enough, Panasonic might be willing to sell for the cash to invest in other product sectors, rather than the one everybody already recognizes is growing. Technically this would mean Panasonic gets out of the business, but it also means their products remain in production, possibly under a new name. This wouldn't affect current supply.

2.) Heavy demand in the EV industry especially means some battery types are not easily available other than in industrial quantities.

3.) Small cylindrical cells are expected to be replaced in many applications in the long term by large prismatic cells. This is not happening yet, but some folks in the distribution chain may be prematurely assuming it's imminent.

4.) Manufacturers are trying to discourage the sale of unprotected cells to consumers, because there is some liability in doing so, and they don't want to get sued for somebody abusing a cell and burning their house down or having a flashlight blow up while holding it in their teeth and dying (which happened with an off brand battery recently - EDIT - I may be incorrectly understanding this incident. See further posts).

#2 and #4 both fit what IlluminationDomination has reported, but neither indicates Panasonic is actually phasing out of either cylindrical lithium-ion batteries, or NiMH.

 

[Gauss163]

4.) Manufacturers are trying to discourage the sale of unprotected cells to consumers, because there is some liability in doing so, and they don't want to get sued for somebody abusing a cell and burning their house down or having a flashlight blow up while holding it in their teeth and dying (which happened with an off brand battery recently).

Where did you find info on the type of battery in Caleb Joyner's flashlight? I didn't see any such info in a quick web search.

 

[WalkIntoTheLight]

Where did you find info on the type of battery in Caleb Joyner's flashlight? I didn't see any such info in a quick web search.

From the article, it doesn't sound like the flashlight's battery was to blame. It sounds like he shorted out the car's battery. That might have caused the flashlight to explode, though.

 

[iamlucky13]

Where did you find info on the type of battery in Caleb Joyner's flashlight? I didn't see any such info in a quick web search.

Did I misunderstand the news reports? Was it not due to a venting battery bursting the flashlight body?

Regardless, the basic point about discouraging consumer sales remains. I think it was one of your posts that introduced me to Sony's warning to resellers that represented the same concern.

 

[Gauss163]

Did I misunderstand the news reports? Was it not due to a venting battery bursting the flashlight body?

What news reports do you refer to? None of the reports I saw gave any details about the batteries, so how did you infer that it was an
"off brand" (Li-ion) battery? In fact none of the news reports gave enough details to convince me that the flashlight batteries were the source of the explosion.

Regardless, the basic point about discouraging consumer sales remains. I think it was one of your posts that introduced me to Sony's warning to resellers that represented the same concern.

Yes, I agree with the point you were making. I was just curious if you knew more details about that incident.

 

[SubLGT]

From a Nov 2017 article at Korea IT News:

http://english.etnews.com/20171121200001

...Samsung SDI is going to greatly increase output of its cylindrical batteries in order to respond to rapid increase in demands from electric tool and electric vehicle manufacturers....According to industries on the 20th, Samsung SDI increased production capacity of its cylindrical batteries from 800 million in last year to about 1 billion in this year [2017]...

...said a representative for an industry: "Due to supply and demand for Panasonic's cylindrical batteries being tight as it has secured entire supply of cylindrical batteries for Tesla's electric vehicles, many companies are demanding cylindrical batteries from Samsung SDI."...

...Samsung SDI is going to supply its 21700 cylindrical batteries to Tesla for its world's biggest ESS project that is being established in Australia...Samsung SDI will supply 21700 batteries for Lucid Motors' initial supply of 20,000 batteries in 2018....

 

[iamlucky13]

What news reports do you refer to? None of the reports I saw gave any details about the batteries, so how did you infer that it was an
"off brand" (Li-ion) battery? In fact none of the news reports gave enough details to convince me that the flashlight batteries were the source of the explosion.

I apologize. I assumed it was the battery, but I don't have a source supporting that guess.

 

[equyst]

subscribed, this seems like a very interesting thread

 

[IlluminationDomination]

subscribed, this seems like a very interesting thread

:welcome:

 

[Jon-LiionWholesale]

OK guys, Jon from LiionWholesale here. I was linked to this thread. Let me clarify a bit what I was saying.

Panasonic is still making lithium ion batteries and will continue to do so, but nearly all of their production is now focused on Tesla and other automotive cells. Those automotive cells are very unlikely to get out onto the open market and also are unlikely to be suitable for flashlight use for various reasons. Mainly, many of them will be prismatic style, not cylindrical. Even the Tesla 2170 is not something I would ever recommend using outside of a system designed for it. So for the purposes of where flashlights are concerned, they seem to be phasing themselves out of the market.


While they're still making small numbers of the other cells like the 18650's, they are focusing almost all production on automotive stuff. They are not making nearly enough of the other non-automotive cells to satisfy demand. Many of the non-automotive models are officially discontinued, but some are not, they just aren't making nearly enough of them. All will continue to become harder to get and therefore more expensive.


This is not a rumor. We frequently have big Panasonic authorized battery pack makers coming to us for 18650 batteries now because they can't get them from Panasonic. I think things will mostly move to Samsung SDI and LG Chem for these industrial cells. Even now, those companies are a much better deal in almost all cases.

Hope that clarifies things.

 

[Jon-LiionWholesale]

One question that, surprisingly hasn't come up yet... does this phasing out also affect the Eneloop line of batteries? AA's and AAA's are also cylindrical, aren't they?

No, to my knowledge it doesn't affect that at all. We're talking about their industrial line of cells, not the consumer line like the Eneloop. I'm not as knowledgeable about their consumer market but I'd be surprised if they stopped selling those.

 

[IlluminationDomination]

OK guys, Jon from LiionWholesale here. I was linked to this thread. Let me clarify a bit what I was saying.

Panasonic is still making lithium ion batteries and will continue to do so, but nearly all of their production is now focused on Tesla and other automotive cells. Those automotive cells are very unlikely to get out onto the open market and also are unlikely to be suitable for flashlight use for various reasons. Mainly, many of them will be prismatic style, not cylindrical. Even the Tesla 2170 is not something I would ever recommend using outside of a system designed for it. So for the purposes of where flashlights are concerned, they seem to be phasing themselves out of the market.


While they're still making small numbers of the other cells like the 18650's, they are focusing almost all production on automotive stuff. They are not making nearly enough of the other non-automotive cells to satisfy demand. Many of the non-automotive models are officially discontinued, but some are not, they just aren't making nearly enough of them. All will continue to become harder to get and therefore more expensive.


This is not a rumor. We frequently have big Panasonic authorized battery pack makers coming to us for 18650 batteries now because they can't get them from Panasonic. I think things will mostly move to Samsung SDI and LG Chem for these industrial cells. Even now, those companies are a much better deal in almost all cases.

Hope that clarifies things.

Thanks for the clarification Jon.

 

[MrAl]

Hi,

I guess we just go with the other manufacturers then. Come to think of it now, i dont think i have any Panasonic 18650's unless they were rebranded and so i cant tell. The Sony's are the best anyway, 30 amps

 

[Gauss163]

I would not trust any claims on such matters unless they come directly from Panasonic. No doubt the industry is recently strongly driven by EV demands, and partnerships such as those between Tesla and Panasonic will affect short term supply. But don't expect to receive accurate information from rumor mills and small companies that supply hobbyists. Sometimes strategic decisions are not even revealed to major partners, so it would not be wise to assume that one can obtain accurate information many further levels down the supply chain.

 

[IlluminationDomination]

^^^

We will see. We are all entitled to our opinion.

No disrespect, However, I value Jons Opinion more than yours. He is involved directly with these manufacturers and I suspect you are not.

 

[Gauss163]

However, I value Jons Opinion more than yours. He is involved directly with these manufacturers and I suspect you are not.

What do you believe that "He is involved directly with these manufacturers"? Neither Panasonic nor any other top tier Li-ion manufacturer deal directly with small hobby suppliers.They are many levels further down the supply chain. So anything you hear at such levels should be taken with a grain of salt.

I value facts - not opinions and rumors. This thread does not contain even a single verifiable fact on the matter - only unfounded speculation.

 

[IlluminationDomination]

^^^^

I am not going to argue with you gauss. I browsed this forum for 5 years b/4 joining. I am VERY familiar w/ your interaction/tactics w/ HKJ, Administrators and the average Joe like me.

 

[IlluminationDomination]

^^^

We will see. We are all entitled to our opinion.

No disrespect, However, I value Jons Opinion more than yours. He is involved directly with these manufacturers and I suspect you are not.

I apologize. I misspoke. What I meant to say is that I trust the INFORMATION Jon got more than G163's opinion.

 

[Gauss163]

But I gave no opinions above. I merely emphasized the point that there are no verifiable facts posted on this matter - only opinions and speculations by folks very far removed from the source (Panasonic).

It is important to keep in mind that all sorts of marketing shenanigans can affect such matters. For example, if somewhere along the supply chain some vendor seeks to sway clients towards cells that are more profitable then they could exploit temporary shortages to their advantage by falsely spreading rumors that the shortages will be permanent. Clients far down the supply chain might have no clue that this was happening and may take them at their word (and may have no easy way to verify such claims).

As such, it is wise to be a bit skeptical of such claims unless they are straight from the manufacturer (and verifiably so).