Rigel SkyLite Mini Red/White - continuously variable brightness

rigelsys

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paulr said:
I've been wondering for a while where to get 660nm red leds. Typical red led flashlights are 635nm which is more orangey. I guess I gotta order one of these...

Yes we do use 660nm deep red leds, for better scotropic (sp?) response. I have found the 635nm too orangy. Because 660nm is a deeper red, they are usually quoted as having lower candlepower (lower mcd) compared to 635nm not because they put out less watts, but because the eye's sensitivity drops quite a bit between 635 and 660nm

Leon Palmer
Rigel Systems
 

rigelsys

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Sub_Umbra said:
It's blue/green. With the stock 2016s it's supposed to be ~495nm and because of the PWM it seems to hold that color no matter how far it is dimmed. With a 2032 it looks like about ~505nm and again, it holds that color well at all levels. (I'm not really good at judging colors but I have a turquoise Pak-Lite which is supposed to be ~505nm and with the 2032 the Freedom looks the same color to me.

I've been interested in Dark Adaptation and NV compatable lights for some time. I first started reading your posts in a thread I started a while back called, "How Red is Red?" All of the regular Dark Adaptation guys showed up for that one. I learned a lot. I read all the links and most of the secondary links. After Katrina I went back and read a lot of it again. (We were using NV compatible lights for six weeks during the K event.)

Most of my lights are green (SEE avatar) or blue/green and the blue/green is what I use the most of. I'm also interested in seeing how much color shift I'll have with my green Rigel Mini with it's current regulation.

Sounds like we're both into some of the same things.

Regards,


Sub

the blue greens we use were tested and approved by the AFRL (Air Force Research Lab) Night Vision folks in Arizona for use around military night vision equipment.

Leon Palmer
Rigel Systems
 

rigelsys

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And if any body's interested in the early history of LED flashlights (from our perspective anyway) download the history of Rigel Systems on the customer care tab on our website at www.rigelsys.com

If enuf interest is posed, I will regale the assembled multitude with my story of being contacted for prior art during the great LED patent wars a few years ago

Leon Palmer
Rigel Systems
 

UnknownVT

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rigelsys wrote: "And if any body's interested in the early history of LED flashlights (from our perspective anyway) download the history of Rigel Systems on the customer care tab on our website at www.rigelsys.com

If enuf interest is posed, I will regale the assembled multitude with my story of being contacted for prior art during the great LED patent wars a few years ago"

Many thanks for the input.

I, for one, would be very interested in hearing your story.

I've taken some current draw readings from my sample of the Rigel SkyLite Mini Red/White -

.................... Max ........... Min
Red ............. 55.9mA ..... 1.75mA
White .......... 55.6mA ..... 1.75mA
 

Sub_Umbra

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rigelsys said:
the blue greens we use were tested and approved by the AFRL (Air Force Research Lab) Night Vision folks in Arizona for use around military night vision equipment.

Leon Palmer
Rigel Systems
Wow. This is really interesting. Thanks for mentioning that. I've kinda been really itchy to see what color the green lights are.

Do you know the dominant wavelength of the blue/greens you use?

EDIT: I'd like to hear the story, too. :D
 
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Sub_Umbra

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Hey Leon,

I just read the brief history on your site. The lineage of your lights is interesting. Since I'm not an astronomer it was also cool to see just what those other products are for that I keep seeing on your site.

Sub
 

PeterW

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Regardless of the white/green/red debate......
I am about to put together my own light. I will have red (>650nm) and white LEDs in it. I plan to put a 1Mohm pot in there too, so I can get microamps current. A 10kohm pot didn't make it dim enough.

I found that I could 'short' out a microswitch in my prototype with my skin resistance (>>Mohm) and the LED die would JUST begin to glow and I could STILL read text in a pitch black room (from an inch away). So my philosophy is that if in doubt, make it dimmer!! If your eyes are struggling, then they aren't going to be so affected.

I feel that most red 'Astro'lights are probably too bright, but I'd love someoone to test their night vision with some lights as a test. Keep the 'contol' eye covered during 'exposure' to the test light.

Cheers

PEterW
 

UnknownVT

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PeterW wrote: "Regardless of the white/green/red debate......
I am about to put together my own light. I will have red (>650nm) and white LEDs in it. I plan to put a 1Mohm pot in there too, so I can get microamps current. A 10kohm pot didn't make it dim enough.

I found that I could 'short' out a microswitch in my prototype with my skin resistance (>>Mohm) and the LED die would JUST begin to glow and I could STILL read text in a pitch black room (from an inch away). So my philosophy is that if in doubt, make it dimmer!! If your eyes are struggling, then they aren't going to be so affected.

I feel that most red 'Astro'lights are probably too bright, but I'd love someoone to test their night vision with some lights as a test. Keep the 'contol' eye covered during 'exposure' to the test light."


Cool - please keep us informed of your experiments.

However in mitigation :D

Rigel Systems have been making these astronomy lights for years and have a very good reputation among astronomers -
so I personally would give them at least the benefit of the doubt that they DO know what they are doing.....

If you please look at Post #19 above the Red LEDs on dimmest setting is pretty low - I could only manage to read 10pt print with the light about 1" away from the paper - which meant it would only illuminate about one word at a time........

On its dimmest setting the current draw was only 1.75mA.

A very important point - Red above about 650nm is the correct color to preserve Scotopic human Night Vision - there is NO debate - it is simply human physiology - don't take my word for it - please read the the USAF Flight Surgeon's Guide Chapter 8 (section on Night Vision starting about 3/4 way down the page).

So establishing that - it is NOT that important how bright the Reds are - as the vision Rods of the eyes (used for Scotopic human vision) are not sensitive to Red above about 650nm -
within reason of course - as too high a light level even in Red will start to affect the Cones or Phototopic vision of the eyes and leave one temporarily blinded.

Even though it is admairable to have such a dim Red level - it is probably done to help least disturb other people - rather than the pure scotopic human night vison preservation.
 

UnknownVT

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I've been EDC'ing at home the Rigel SkyLite Mini so have used it more (OK, played
blush.gif
)

Back on more of a flashaholic tangent - I thought the light was pretty bright on white LEDs - and although in my comparisons above I noted it was "comparable" to the eternaLight ergo3 Red/White on its brightest whites and the Energizer LED HeadBeam 2x Brighter - I think the Rigel SkyLite Mini Red/White on brightest White level is a bit brighter than the eternaLight.

In comparison it seemed at about the same level as my other at home EDC the AdvancedMart 0.5w 1AA - so I thought I'd do a side-by-side comparison beamshot of the two.

Rigel SkyLite Mini Red/White on Brightest White vs. AdvancedMart 0.5w 1AA
SkyLM_AdvM05w1AA.jpg
SkyLM_AdvM05w1AA2U.jpg
 

rigelsys

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UnknownVT said:
PeterW wrote: "Regardless of the white/green/red debate......
I am about to put together my own light. I will have red (>650nm) and white LEDs in it. I plan to put a 1Mohm pot in there too, so I can get microamps current. A 10kohm pot didn't make it dim enough.

I found that I could 'short' out a microswitch in my prototype with my skin resistance (>>Mohm) and the LED die would JUST begin to glow and I could STILL read text in a pitch black room (from an inch away). So my philosophy is that if in doubt, make it dimmer!! If your eyes are struggling, then they aren't going to be so affected.

I feel that most red 'Astro'lights are probably too bright, but I'd love someoone to test their night vision with some lights as a test. Keep the 'contol' eye covered during 'exposure' to the test light."


Cool - please keep us informed of your experiments.

However in mitigation :D

Rigel Systems have been making these astronomy lights for years and have a very good reputation among astronomers -
so I personally would give them at least the benefit of the doubt that they DO know what they are doing.....

If you please look at Post #19 above the Red LEDs on dimmest setting is pretty low - I could only manage to read 10pt print with the light about 1" away from the paper - which meant it would only illuminate about one word at a time........

On its dimmest setting the current draw was only 1.75mA.

A very important point - Red above about 650nm is the correct color to preserve Scotopic human Night Vision - there is NO debate - it is simply human physiology - don't take my word for it - please read the the USAF Flight Surgeon's Guide Chapter 8 (section on Night Vision starting about 3/4 way down the page).

So establishing that - it is NOT that important how bright the Reds are - as the vision Rods of the eyes (used for Scotopic human vision) are not sensitive to Red above about 650nm -
within reason of course - as too high a light level even in Red will start to affect the Cones or Phototopic vision of the eyes and leave one temporarily blinded.

Even though it is admairable to have such a dim Red level - it is probably done to help least disturb other people - rather than the pure scotopic human night vison preservation.

Green vs Red has been argued quite a bit in the Astro hobby. The gist is, visual acuity in red is pretty bad, to read one has to crank the red up to the point that it decreases dark adaptation. Visual acuity in the green is so much better, that the green can be used at much lower levels than red to read by and so green doesn't affect night vision as much. Our position is, that if you don't need to read fine print, then red is the best. If you need to read fine print in the dark, then green is better.

I have done the comparison between green and white, and it's amazing how much sharper vision is in the green.

Leon Palmer
Rigel Systems
 

Sub_Umbra

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rigelsys said:
Green vs Red has been argued quite a bit in the Astro hobby. The gist is, visual acuity in red is pretty bad, to read one has to crank the red up to the point that it decreases dark adaptation. Visual acuity in the green is so much better, that the green can be used at much lower levels than red to read by and so green doesn't affect night vision as much. Our position is, that if you don't need to read fine print, then red is the best. If you need to read fine print in the dark, then green is better.

I have done the comparison between green and white, and it's amazing how much sharper vision is in the green.

Leon Palmer
Rigel Systems

I wanted to ask you your thoughts on the red/green question since you come from the Astro side. You beat me to it. Thanks.
 

Sub_Umbra

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Leon,

I was wondering if you got my Money Order for a MIL Starlite Mini from New Orleans? Our Mail service is still kind of jerky going out and coming into New Orleans. I mailed it on 02.07.06. It was to Mike Smith.

The mail here is much better than it was a couple months ago, mainly it's just slow.

Thanks
Sub
 
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UnknownVT

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rigelsys wrote: "Green vs Red has been argued quite a bit in the Astro hobby. The gist is, visual acuity in red is pretty bad, to read one has to crank the red up to the point that it decreases dark adaptation. Visual acuity in the green is so much better, that the green can be used at much lower levels than red to read by and so green doesn't affect night vision as much. Our position is, that if you don't need to read fine print, then red is the best. If you need to read fine print in the dark, then green is better. "

Far be it from me to to even contemplate contradicting someone who is very experienced in use of light with astronomy.

I would very much agree that red causes problems in acucity for lots of people - including me.
I too would see better using a dim green.

BUT if we are talking about strictly preserving Scotopic human night vision - which takes about half an hour to acquire in a totally dark environment (or wearing suitable red goggles) - any light other than red that allows one to read will affect the very sensitive Rods used for Scotopic human night vision.

Sorry to seem pedantic about using the words "Scotopic human night vision" - but I want to be explicit about what we are talking about.

For what I call semi-dark conditioning - ie: just being about to see well in the dark - this takes only about 5-7 minutes in the dark - which uses the cones - mainly Photopic "daylight" vision, or the mixed Mesopic vision using both rods and cones - then almost any colored light will do depending on personal taste - the dimmer the better - there is then VERY good argument for using green - as it is the wavelength that the human eye is most sensitive to - so in theory one needs th least amount of green to still see.

But - this is a personal take - I find green an unusual and somewhat UNcomfortable color to use and find a yellow or amber "better" - I know this is most likely conditioning and what we are used to, as most artificial lights are yellow biassed - so I understand if this only works for me.......and YMMV -

However from the USAF Flight Surgeon's Guide Chapter 8 - which I take as authorative -

QUOTE:
"Enhancing and Maintaining Dark Adaptation: For maximum utilization of scotopic vision, 20 to 30 minutes are required, in total darkness, to attain satisfactory dark-adaptation. A more practical alternative is to have the aircrew members wear red goggles to facilitate dark adaptation. Red goggles can be worn in normal illumination and do not interfere significantly with the ability to read maps, charts, manuals, etc. They block all light except red light, and red light does not simulate the rods, as we have seen.


To understand why red filters can be used to achieve dark adaptation, it is necessary to examine the relative positions of the photopic and scotopic sensitivity curves in Figure 8-20. If a red filter with a cutoff at about 650 nanometers is worn, essentially no light is transmitted to the eye that can stimulate the rods. However, the cones are sensitive to the red light, and, thus, adequate visual acuity is permitted. By wearing red goggles for 30 minutes, the rods are almost fully dark adapted. Although the cones are not dark adapted, it only takes about 5 to 7 minutes, after a pilot steps into the dark, for the cones to adapt. Cone adaptation is relatively unimportant, since they are incapable of functioning in starlight illumination. There are, however, some drawbacks to wearing red goggles. For example, when reading maps, all markings in red ink on a white background may be invisible. In addition, red light creates or worsens near point blur in the pre-presbyopic or presbyopic pilot, as red light comes to a focus behind the retina and requires more accommodation to bring it into focus.

Dark adaptation of the rods develops rather slowly over a period of 20 to 30 minutes, but it can be lost in a second or two upon exposure to bright lights. The night flyer must, therefore, be taught to avoid bright lights. Also, the instrument panel must be kept illuminated at the lowest level consistent with safe operation, and the flyer must avoid looking at flares, after-burner flames, or gun flashes. If light must be used, it should be as dim as possible and used for the shortest possible period.

Dark adaptation is an independent process in each eye. Even though a bright light may shine in one eye, the other will retain its dark adaptation, if it is protected from the light. This is a useful bit of information, because a flyer can preserve dark adaptation in one eye by simply closing it.

Cockpit Illumination: The use of red light (wavelength greater than 650 nanometers) for illumination of the cockpit is desirable, because it, like red goggles, does not affect dark adaptation. Red cockpit lighting has been traditional since World War II. The intent was to maintain the greatest rod sensitivity possible, while still providing some illumination for central foveal vision. However, red cockpit lighting did create some near vision problems for the pre-presbyopic and presbyopic aviators. With the increased use of electronic and electro-optical devices for navigation, target detection, and night vision, the importance of the pilot's visual efficiency within the cockpit has increased and new problems have been created. Low intensity, white cockpit lighting is presently used to solve those problems. It affords a more natural visual environment within the aircraft, without degrading the color of objects. Blue-green cockpit lighting is used in aircraft in which night-vision devices are used because, unlike the human eye, these devices are not sensitive to light at that end of the visual spectrum. In addition, blue-green light is the easiest for accommodative focus and is seen by the rods more readily than any other color. It is not seen as blue-green, however, but only as light. However, the enemy can easily see a blue-green light, under scotopic conditions, in any position of his peripheral field, whereas a low intensity red light would be invisible unless viewed directly. "

Thanks for the input and discussion.
 
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SilverFox

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Hello Vincent,

Those times that find me in combat situations, I will go for red, however, when I am out playing around at night, I prefer the yellow green of the SureFire A2.

The blue green of these Rigel lights is also very good, and I am able to dim it down quite a bit below that of the yellow green A2.

At night around the campsite in a non threat environment, I find the green much more enjoyable to use than the red. If I need my night vision back, I simply close my eyes... and usually fall asleep. :)

These are great lights for low light situations. The variable brightness allows you to dial in the amount of light you need. To view distant objects, turn the light up, for close up use, dial it back down. All we are missing is a high power green laser pointer to point out the heavenly objects...

Tom
 

UnknownVT

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SilverFox wrote: "At night around the campsite in a non threat environment, I find the green much more enjoyable to use than the red. If I need my night vision back, I simply close my eyes... and usually fall asleep. :)
These are great lights for low light situations. The variable brightness allows you to dial in the amount of light you need. To view distant objects, turn the light up, for close up use, dial it back down."

Tom,

Many thanks for that input.

Yes, red can be very troublesome for seeing detail/definition - like reading small print - for some people (including me).

I have found from experience that I prefer Yellow/amber - as in a Photon Yellow - I EDC'd a Photon 1 Yellow for over 7 years and finally replaced it with a Photon 2 Yellow. For NON-scotopic semi-dark conditioning use - I seem to see better contrast and definition using a dim yellow than any other color including white.

It probably is a personal thing but I find green a rather unusual color light that one normally does not encounter - so it is somewhat disturbing for me - even though I do know theoretically one should be able to see using the least amount of light using green - but if I can't get along with the color green it won't work for me......admittedly that may just be a personal bias.

Whereas most humans are already "conditioned" to yellow/amber light - as that occurs naturally like when the day changes from dark to bright and visa versa - ie: sunrise and sunset. Fire, candle light are all yellow, and even our current electric lights are yellow and people seem to prefer soft/warm lights which are more yellow - even street lighting has been adapted to suit our yellow light conditioning........

But you're right - that's why I am so enthusiastic about this Rigel SkyLite Mini - as I can easily dial-in the right amount of light for the situation - just playing around I was surprised how little light I needed to see -

BUT also realized how seldom I ever use true Scotopic human night vision - since it requires 20-30 minutes in a totally dark enviroment to even attain - and the vision is very uncomfortable since there is almost no definition and no color whatsoever...... it almost feels like not seeing but somehow seeing....:huh:
being that sensitive it is easily disturbed by any light - if one can see color it is TOO BRIGHT - that is other than Red above about 650nm which the Rods of the eyes are insensitive to....

Chart taken from USAF Flight Surgeon's Guide Chapter 8
showing just how sensitive one's eyes are using Scotopic vision -
therefore how easily Scotopic vision would be disturbed with any visible amount of light - except for Red.


To close one's eyes for a few minutes to regain adaption is probably the semi-dark adaption for the Cones - ie: Photopic or maybe Mesopic vision - since it takes 20-30 minutes to attain Scotopic vision.......
 

rigelsys

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Sub_Umbra said:
Leon,

I was wondering if you got my Money Order for a MIL Starlite Mini from New Orleans? Our Mail service is still kind of jerky going out and coming into New Orleans. I mailed it on 02.07.06. It was to Lance Chalfont.

The mail here is much better than it was a couple months ago, mainly it's just slow.

Thanks
Sub


Hi,

It mailed last wed. You should have it soon!

thanks

Leon
 

rigelsys

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UnknownVT said:
SilverFox wrote: "At night around the campsite in a non threat environment, I find the green much more enjoyable to use than the red. If I need my night vision back, I simply close my eyes... and usually fall asleep. :)
These are great lights for low light situations. The variable brightness allows you to dial in the amount of light you need. To view distant objects, turn the light up, for close up use, dial it back down."

Tom,

Many thanks for that input.

Yes, red can be very troublesome for seeing detail/definition - like reading small print - for some people (including me).

I have found from experience that I prefer Yellow/amber - as in a Photon Yellow - I EDC'd a Photon 1 Yellow for over 7 years and finally replaced it with a Photon 2 Yellow. For NON-scotopic semi-dark conditioning use - I seem to see better contrast and definition using a dim yellow than any other color including white.

It probably is a personal thing but I find green a rather unusual color light that one normally does not encounter - so it is somewhat disturbing for me - even though I do know theoretically one should be able to see using the least amount of light using green - but if I can't get along with the color green it won't work for me......admittedly that may just be a personal bias.

Whereas most humans are already "conditioned" to yellow/amber light - as that occurs naturally like when the day changes from dark to bright and visa versa - ie: sunrise and sunset. Fire, candle light are all yellow, and even our current electric lights are yellow and people seem to prefer soft/warm lights which are more yellow - even street lighting has been adapted to suit our yellow light conditioning........

But you're right - that's why I am so enthusiastic about this Rigel SkyLite Mini - as I can easily dial-in the right amount of light for the situation - just playing around I was surprised how little light I needed to see -

BUT also realized how seldom I ever use true Scotopic human night vision - since it requires 20-30 minutes in a totally dark enviroment to even attain - and the vision is very uncomfortable since there is almost no definition and no color whatsoever...... it almost feels like not seeing but somehow seeing....:huh:
being that sensitive it is easily disturbed by any light - if one can see color it is TOO BRIGHT - that is other than Red above about 650nm which the Rods of the eyes are insensitive to....

Chart taken from USAF Flight Surgeon's Guide Chapter 8
showing just how sensitive one's eyes are using Scotopic vision -
therefore how easily Scotopic vision would be disturbed with any visible amount of light - except for Red.


To close one's eyes for a few minutes to regain adaption is probably the semi-dark adaption for the Cones - ie: Photopic or maybe Mesopic vision - since it takes 20-30 minutes to attain Scotopic vision.......

I've enjoyed this discussion here, as it gets quite heated in the astro forums... I discussed it with an optometrist, as to why acuity at red is worse than at yellow-green, he points out it may be because red focuses behind the retina, while the eye lens, optimized for yellow/green, focuses yellow/green on the retina (difference in refractive index between red & yellow/green). Dark adaptation is quite an amazing process. I have a great book called "the eye, an approachable part of the brain" which goes into all the neural computational (i.e., brain) behind the retina. What happens is quite amazing, beyond the pupils dialiating, and the chemical changes, are also computational changes, as the eye trades spatial and temporal resolution for sensitivity (i.e., spatial resolution decreases, which is why astronomer's use higher powers to see spatial changes in an object, and temporal changes as the eye's integration time lengthens, thou I don't know by how much).

But great discussion!

Leon
 

UnknownVT

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rigelsys wrote: "I've enjoyed this discussion here, as it gets quite heated in the astro forums... I discussed it with an optometrist, as to why acuity at red is worse than at yellow-green, he points out it may be because red focuses behind the retina, while the eye lens, optimized for yellow/green, focuses yellow/green on the retina (difference in refractive index between red & yellow/green). "

Yes, CPF is a wonderful place for (mostly very civil) discussion - where everyone is listened to with respect.

We are indeed fortunate to have you on CPF.

Your optometrist is obviously correct about red light being focussed behind the retina - this is just human physiology, and simple physics
- as confirmed by USAF Flight Surgeon's Guide Chapter 8

QUOTE:
"Visual Acuity <snip>
Also, the refractive characteristics of the eye causes blue light to focus in front of the retina and red light to focus behind the retina, when compared to yellow light that is focused on the retina."
and

"Cockpit Illumination: <snip>
However, red cockpit lighting did create some near vision problems for the pre-presbyopic and presbyopic aviators."

That's old sight and people starting to develop old sight -

we had a fairly recent discussion that blue light seem to help correct old sight -
that's exactly the same - focussing the shorter wavelength (blue) light in front of the retina for normal sight - but on old sight - actually onto the retina - thus correcting the faulty vision.
 
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UnknownVT

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I realise I am resurrecting an old thread, but am looking for a super dim light. The Rigel offering looks good but I was wondering if anyone has compared this to the Sky-Watcher offering as this is much easier to get in the UK?:
http://www.scopesnskies.com/prod/nightvision-torch/dual/led.html

Sorry to be so late in responding.

I am not familiar with the Sky-Watcher, but it does look interesting
and somewhat "similar" to the Rigel SkyLite Mini - in the 2x red and 2x white LED arrangement, and the use of a 9V battery.....

I did compare the lowest white level of the Rigel SkyLite with the moonlight mode of the Quark AA (rated at 0.2 lumens) in Post #50 in 4Sevens Quark AA Comparison Review if that's of any help......
 
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