Sold/Expired SF M6-R order information and updates - Part 2

[js]

Crosman451,

You're very welcome! And thank ALL of you for your patience with the slow delivery of the orders. I'm getting closer and closer to finishing, and I *really* want to be done before summer, so I'm going to be pushing harder on the M6-R stuff. Especially now that the USL packs situation is handled.

After, Starlight's order goes out by the end of this week or Monday of next week, I will need to do the rest of the end-to-end soldering and build up another bunch of packs and form and cycle them, so there will be a bit of a delay before I can start work on the rest of the orders after Starlight's.

Also, I edited the first post of part 1 of this thread (link in first post of this thread) so you can see what the current and completely up to date (for now) list looks like.

And finally, after starlight, I think I will just begin again at the top of the list and fill the orders, regardless of whether or not the person has his or her USL order yet. Bill should be getting to the USL orders quite a bit faster than before now that he has a ready supply of packs for them. Post here if anyone has a problem with this idea. Oh, but I will still push the split shipped orders (cy and rick258) till last--only fair, I think.

OK. Thanks everyone!

 

[PhantomZ]

Jim,

got my package this morning, thx. like everyone who got thier package says, your work on the battery is awsome. when i first saw the battery, i was shocked that it was so small, but it was a good fit~

got a couple questions. i'm alittle worried that the plastic will wear on the 3 sides after some use. think it'll just be ok or can you or anyone else recommend some extra protection?

also, you basicly plug everything first, before the battery, making sure the settings and lights on are correct, then plug the battery in and press start. about how long will it take till full charge (when all lights go off)? couldnt find the charging time going back on the post. maybe i just missed it cause there were lots to read.

thx !

 

[js]

PhantomZ,

Don't worry about the plastic wearing away. With anything approaching normal use, it won't. It has proven itself in the field. And even if it did start, the wear would occur right above the rubber bands top and bottom, at the six points of contact with the inside of the M6 body. And thus would pose no problem electrically. And underneath that is kapton tape.

I should probably remove that bit in the care and use instructions warning people about compromising the plastic shrink wrap. I wasn't thinking of wear and regular use, but rather of something unusual: a cut or tear due to contact with a sharp object, etc. I just wanted people to be aware of this so they could send it back to me to get re-covered should it happen.

And yes: for charging, plug in charger power supply, connect charger to power supply (if not already connected), then plug in charging cable to charger, and THEN connect the pack to the charging cable. Then start charging.

The only thing to watch out for is if you connect the charging cable to the pack before connecting the banana plugs to the charger at the other end. Because once you connect to the pack, those plugs have 10+ volts across them and the pack will easily dump 10 or more amps through the connection should you touch the banana plugs together. This will fry the tiny terminals in the connector shells, and would basically be BAD. So if you keep the charging cable plugged into the charger all the time, and keep the charger connected to the power supply all the time, then all you would do is plug in the power cord, then connect to the pack, then start charging.

Charging time will depend on the charge rate you select and upon the state of charge of the pack. If you charge at the slowest rate (about .2 amps), and the pack was fully used up, it will take about 6 hours to complete the charge. But charging at higher rates is fine, too. I tested the setup out, and up to about .6 amps is pretty safe. Go higher at your own risk. At .6 amps, the charge will take 2 hours.

 

[PhantomZ]

thanks for the info jim. i started to charge the pack last night when i saw the light flashing. almost didnt notice it till i looked longer at the light. charging at 0.2 i stopped after 2 and half hours cause i wanted to sleep badly U_U.

 

[js]

**EDIT** I have formally and for the record retracted my endorsement of the HD-M6. PM me for my reasons.

*Deep breath*

OK. Lots to say.

230 or so (all my remaining cells) of my GP 1100 2/3A's have gone "lame", which is as good as "bad" for the M6-R application. Instead of getting 1050 or so mAh at 1C draw, I am only getting 900 or so. This would correspond to at least a 4 minute reduction in runtime. So instead of 19 minutes, these would yield 15 minutes. This is obviously unacceptable. The cells do no cycle up to capacity in any reasonable number of cycles, although some experiments that SilverFox has done do suggest that after 50 or so cycles they might regain the 200 mAh of missing capacity.

This represents $550 worth of cells and a significant amount of time, because all of them were prepped and ready for end-to-end soldering.

I did a lot of thinking, soul-searchnig, and equivocating over the past two or three days, and I have decided to cut my losses and give up the struggle. Most especially because of andrewwynn's new kick-a** rechargeable M6 solution: The HD-M6

Check it out. I talked with Andrew on the phone at length over the weekend, and I feel very confident that his solution will work exactly as advertised, and (more importantly) that he will have it ready to go and have all the orders out before I could even get halfway through the remaining 25 or so packs that I am slated to make. His solution in a nut-shell is this:

Modify the LOTC so that six Li-ion 17500 cells can fit in a 3p2s solution with one of his hot-drivers to hold-back the fully charged voltage. The LOTC mod can be completely reversible if you buy a new internal cup for it, which will allow you to swap internals and go from HD-M6 to stock M6 configuration in a jiffy. Or you can just have him mod your tailcap and not worry about swapping back and forth. Plus he even has a longer spring for the modded tailcap that will allow use of the MB20 if you wish. Plus, you can always just buy another LOTC.

The benefit? Well, there are a number of them:

1. Li-ion can just sit around and won't go lame or lose capacity.
2. 40 minutes of HOLA runtime (!!!)
3. hot driver will regulate on BOTH current and voltage and thus AWR will set it to work perfectly for BOTH the regular M6 HOLA and M6 LOLA.
4. If a cell goes bad, it is easily replaced. The pack is like a battery holder in that the cells are not soldered or welded in. Plus, you can always upgrade to better cells when they become available.
5. Timely delivery due to low manual labor necessary for each pack.
6. No manual labor needed from me at all.

I am officially and formally giving the HD-M6 my approval and recommendation. I think it is a superior solution in every way, except that it is not a total drop-in like the M6-R is--but given that one can just swap LOTC internals to go back and forth, this is hardly an issue.

So, here is what I want to happen:

I want to refund and cancel all paid orders, and cancel all unpaid orders, with the exception of starlight (your order will ship out fairly soon, and with brand new cells in the pack).

I've talked to andrew about this, and all people who were on the M6-R list will get priority on the HD-M6 list, and, for convenience, I can just send your money right over to andrewwynn so you don't need to deal with getting the refund, and then paying him, and so on. Or I will just refund you directly and you can decide what to do later. Whatever you want.

For those who feel very (and I mean very) strongly that they would prefer one of my M6-R packs, I will consider honoring the agreement we had and completing your order,

BUT, consider that the AWR solution is twice the runtime, and Li-ion, and much easier to maintain and repair on your own. And consider that I am burnt out beyond burnt out, and would definitely prefer to have you go with AWR's rechargeable M6 solution. And consider that me having to buy new cells for every continued M6-R order will mean that much extra cost for each pack I have to build from now on.

If you all can see your way clear to releasing me from our agreement, and forgiving me for taking FOREVER to complete your orders (and then backing out after all that time) then I would greatly appreciate it.

***

So, this will also mean that I will be selling off the extra regulators I have if anyone is interested in building his or her own M6-R solution. The regulators will work perfectly for 9 series NiMH or for 3 series Li-ion. A 3 17670 Li-ion pack would be a total drop-in solution, and the regulator will fit alongside the pack. Depending on exactly what happens here, I will be posting about 20 of these for sale on B/S/T for about $30 each shipped. But if anyone who is signed up on the M6-R list wants to buy one or more of these, you have first dibs.

OK. That's all for now. I will be spreading the word via email and PM to people whose money I have, but if anyone reading this wants to also spread the word, please feel free to do so.

 

[Jerimoth]

Jim- no worries- we've been with you through all your struggles and would share your sense of relief to get this off your back, no pun intended. I'm definitely interested in the alternative Andrew is offering. Jerimoth

 

[js]

Thanks, Jerimoth. Much appreciated. I will put you down for an HD-M6 fund transfer. Extra money will obviously be refunded, and underpayment to AWR will obviously necessitate settling up with him at some point.

For those who will be needing full or partial refunds from me, please ensure that the address you gave me when you placed your M6-R order is still valid. If in doubt, please email me at [email protected] or PM me with the correct address.

 

[andrewwynn]

As Jim mentined, we had a very good talk on the phone on Sat.. the summary of which was that I had figured out a way with about 1/8th the man-hours to build this LiON based pack. I am not sure what the JS pack cost, but I'm aiming for right around $100 for my pack, could be even less if somebody opted for the 3.0AH vs 3.3AH solution. I had told Jim that anybody on his list could move right over to the HD-M6 list and i will use their original paypal date for shipping order.

I think i actually made a math error in your favor, i think my timeline was off a full week toward the long side, updates will be on my HD-M6 intro thread. It will take about 6 weeks to get the machined part made, by which time, i would most likely have all the packs ready to be matched with the part and sent off... looks like end of may for most, and maybe just into the first week of June to have any quantity completed.

I still don't know what the demand or interest will be.. i anticipate having the prototype done this weekend, knowing what all the costs will be and set a price and open a BST on sunday or monday.

-awr

 

[Sakugenken]

No worries Jim. Glad to hear you found a way to work it out. I also would like one of Andrew's packs. My one problem was that this pack is linked with my USL. Could you please contact Bill and sort things out. I really appreciate it

 

[Lightraven]

I know I had indicated in December, right after getting my M6-R pack that I would report on it for use at my job.

For various reasons, most of which I communicated to JS, I delayed this post. I wanted to make sure I was being thorough. I have posted on some other threads about my use of the M6-R, in each case, having found it to be a terrific solution to the frequent to semi-frequent use of the M6 in a law enforcement context.

In one case, I approached 3 minor (not felonious) criminals in a very dark area in my vehicle using night vision goggles. I got out and then lit them up using the M6-R to see them more clearly and to deny their own ability to see me clearly. For this purpose, the M6-R is unparalleled. The various lights of my vehicle cannot be aimed at people who are walking away from the headlights or alley lights which are fixed to the lightbar.

In another instance, I used a Costco HID to locate 2 minor criminals hiding in a bush. I set the HID down in order to approach them with my M6-R. The M6-R is used to deny their vision as well as see their hands clearly as I approach.

During a suspicious car stop made in close proximity to an arrest minutes earlier, I was forced to move between the beams of two cars' headlights while looking into a dark cabin at the suspects. I used the M6-R to light up the interior and make it more difficult for the suspects to see us.

Another night, I stood up on the top of a mesa while shining the M6-R towards a road below so my fellows could more safely climb down as well as see what was around them while searching for suspects. Their own Stinger beams were, by comparison, dim and narrow.

Only one application did I find the M6-R to be less than ideal. When attempting to stop traffic on the interstate, I tried to flash the drivers of oncoming vehicles with my M6-R. Because the M6 HOLA bulb is already a bit slow to light up and turn off, and with the addition of the pack's soft start delay, the flashing was awkwardly slow. Since cars were coming at me fast, I was jabbing the button a little faster than the light could deal with. So, I adapted by simply keeping the light on and waving the light left and right to simulate a lighthouse flashing effect. It worked fine.

There is another M6 thread going where the discussion sometimes turns to the appropriate use of the M6 and what is "tactical" use. Should the M6 be expected to burn for 20 minutes continously? In the months that I have been using JS's M6-R pack, I have never had the light die on me when I was using it--and this is despite not keeping it fully charged. In other words, the runtime in field use was never an issue. In trying to be thorough, however, I did runtime tests at home and communicated my results to JS.

I recently did a runtime test with unused Surefire batteries and got only 11 minutes and change before a thermal shutdown. After a cooldown, the batteries were only good for another 5+ minutes at a reduced brightness.

JS's pack, even with "unacceptable" (JS's word) run times is still superior to the SF123 standard power supply. The pack runs continuously, without shutdown and at full brightness for its entire usable life. You get a subtle blinking that warns you of impending death, rather than unwanted dimming or sudden death. Then, the pack can be recharged for pennies of electricity after work, ready to go on the next night's shift. Even the 10X Dominator can't compete for being easily carried.

To the extent JS might have felt that he was working his @$$ off and not knowing how his creation was being successfully used in medium stakes applications (if not tactical, I won't call anything I do that), I will hope this post, in part, makes up for it. Given the demand for M6-R packs, they seemed to be underpriced by JS. He could have asked for, and gotten more. The fact that he didn't as well as his communications to me indicate a strong desire to make really high quality products that get used where it counts.

The M6-R is my primary duty flashlight and will continue to be.

 

[andrewwynn]

JS's pack is a superior solution, absolutely first-rate.. I 'totally cheated' by having the 'innocence' shall we say to not consider the feelings of the M6 when i took a dremel to a brand-new M6 that hadn't even gone through it's first set of batteries! When i saw all the wasted space inside a stock M6 and the fact that SIX 17500s would fit in w/o all the empty airspace, i just had to make it happen.

My 'baddest' solution using NiMH was and will be (some people will be more comfortable with NiMH i'm sure).. is a stack of GP2000s x 6 in series.. it will use the exact same configuration of the driver, just a different battery pack solution. I just sized up the GP2000s and a stack of 6 of them with a PCB on both sides is EXACTLY the height of an MB20 battery pack.. so.. i will be able to make a lower capacity pack that will run from GP2000s.. should run for about 23 minutes (real runtime.. GP2000s will output 1.9+AH even at 10A!).. i won't be doing that solution first.. hang tough if you want the NIMH and 'zero mod' solution.

I will be 'madly' mad-scientisting to see if i can make the driver as a separate module from the pack so that you can swap the batteries but not the driver.. it will make it more economical for certain to have multiple battery packs, but only if it's not too much more labor that the labor would outweigh the benefit of the ease of manufacture of the 'single unit' solution i've got in the works right now.

Great real-life stories of the M6 solution.. my favorite thing about JS's or my packs.. they are incredibly more efficient than the stock CR123 solution.. The last math worked out that there is about 11W of heat pumped into the batteries in the stock solution.. and nearly ZERO with JS's solution and maybe 2W with the HD-M6 solution (about 94% efficient).

I'm a big fan of the holding power of LiON.. that you can use it once/month and still expect it to light up.. with a little more energy density as a bonus. NIMH blows away LiON for current capability, but parallel cells makes up for it with relatively low power output.. People will really like the guilt-free lumens from their HD-M6 just like the M6-R.

Big footsteps to follow, thanks for leading the way JS.

-awr

 

[Starlight]

*Deep breath*

OK. Lots to say.
..................

So, here is what I want to happen:

I want to refund and cancel all paid orders, and cancel all unpaid orders, with the exception of starlight (your order will ship out fairly soon, and with brand new cells in the pack).
..................

Jim, any estimate on my M6R?

Thanks,
Harry

 

[Starlight]

Bump. Jim?

 

[MSaxatilus]

Starlight,

With all due respect, I believe you should read a few posts back and find out the bad news for yourself.

MSax

 

[andrewwynn]

The hotdriver M6 sales thread has opened here anybody on the M6-R is invited to swap directly over and keep your place in line. The pack ended up at a price of $120 for the first pack. $110 for add'l packs and $80 for the battery pack alone... only one $5 shipping fee per order.. anywhere on earth*

*unless your particular country has some extremly high cost to ship, then only the difference between the typical amount and your country would be added.

-awr

 

[Starlight]

MSax, with all due respect, I suggest you reread the post from js where he says that mine will ship soon. I'm simply trying to find out when that might be.

 

[MSaxatilus]

Starlight,

Sorry if that came across wrong, because I didn't mean to be a jerk. I thought that you just may not have seen the previous posts about JS abandoning the project. I do agree with AWR though, his rechargeable pack looks like a tremendous alternative.

Good luck, seriously... I wasn't trying to bust stones.

MSax

 

[Starlight]

MSax, you still didn't reread the post from js. He is stopping all future orders, except mine. His post says, and I quote, "I want to refund and cancel all paid orders, and cancel all unpaid orders, with the exception of starlight (your order will ship out fairly soon, and with brand new cells in the pack)."

That's me, starlight. I have an M6R coming. See, I can read. Now, I just want to know when.

 

[js]

Starlight,

As always, I am running behind. I am really very sorry.

Anyway, probably in a week, but there is one other possibility. PM sent.

 

[stuartyr]

Jim,

I am having some problems with my M6-R, I have sent you an email.

stuarty