Kestrel
Flashaholic
You could be right, just wanted to throw it out there. :shrug:
Solarforce Explosion
- Thread starter subalpine
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tandem
Enlightened
This video shows substantial case distortion, apparently virtually instantly, following a controlled test of an over-charged battery, shorted. The case in this example was flexible, unlike an aluminium tube. There's no doubt the cells can vent under adverse circumstances.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p21iZVFHEZk
This text available for preview within Google Books confirms all Lithium-based chemistries in their test showed venting and aerosolization of compounds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p21iZVFHEZk
This text available for preview within Google Books confirms all Lithium-based chemistries in their test showed venting and aerosolization of compounds.
subalpine
Newly Enlightened
internet sucks here, so no pics yet. the light is my duty light, and was room temp. was outside for maybe 5 mins before boom time. wife found some of it in the driveway. batteries are empty and charred. lots of metal shrapnel. the tail cap is in one piece still. lens, drop in and battery tube are no where to be found. i think they projected forward at the time, and are likely in the truck. i cant personalty decide what would be worse, what happened, or the same thing in my hand. could have taken off a finger.
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PoliceScannerMan
Flashaholic
Holy cow, glad you are (somewhat) ok man.
chillinn
Flashlight Enthusiast
We have to know what the improbable, or impossible is before it can be eliminated, to paraphrase Sherlock Holmes (er, A.C.Doyle). Lets hear the improbable or ridiculous, and then decide.
I bought a thing for my keychain, for decoration really, but its supposed to be used to safely discharge static electricity. I've never been shocked by my car, but from the product description, apparently static charge can build up, and people have been hurt. Actually, I didn't believe the product description. I can't even imagine credible circumstances that this would happen, but subalpine suggested there may have been an electrical arc. If it was snow lightening, the charge would have been great enough to leave very obvious signs it was lightning (like where it entered and exited). How about the less fantastic instances of static electricity? He saw a bright flash, what might that have been? If you apply a great charge to a flashlight, what would that do? When a incandescent bulb breaks but leaves the filament intact, I've seen it glow much brighter than usual before it burns out. Under what circumstances would an LED exhibit "bright flash?" What could the bright flash have been?
About the wrench on the tailcap I had athought about it might come loose a little piece of aluminum shaving from the threads if they didn't pair together properly and then tightened with a wrench.
A little shaving could give a short between the pos end of one battery and the inside of the wall of the flashlight.
But my first guess is unbalanced cells.
Subalpine, hoping for a quick recovery!
A little shaving could give a short between the pos end of one battery and the inside of the wall of the flashlight.
But my first guess is unbalanced cells.
Subalpine, hoping for a quick recovery!
Mr. Nobody
Enlightened
So the glass in your mouth was from what ? Is your jaw gone? Teeth tongue etc ? Sorry to be so blunt but the first post doesn't really paint a picture for me. Your last reply you said you could have lost a finger. Right now I imagine from what you posted is the exploded while in your mouth...so I as anyone assume you lost your teeth and any other tissue or bone matter. As aluminum is shrapnel and cuts tissue and bone without a problem. So can I get a more painted image....in text what exactly the deal is here ?
Sorry OP this has happened to you. my advice is don't put things in your mouth...(I have learned that the hard way)
my prayers and positive thoughts your way.
Sorry OP this has happened to you. my advice is don't put things in your mouth...(I have learned that the hard way)
my prayers and positive thoughts your way.
tandem
Enlightened
Gunnar, you may be on to something.
Like Kestrel and Gunnar I find it hard not to think back to SubAlpine's initial difficulty with the tailcap. Wrenching one on or off simply isn't normal and damage to the threads is almost certain given the gauge of the material and the forces employed. Gunnar's speculation about a chunk of thread being sheared off, possibly shorting within the light, certainly could be a possibility if not a certainty.
In addition to cell to tube wall shorting, here's another possibility for where a short could develop: at the drop-in itself. This photo shows a SolarForce XP-G R5 low voltage drop in left, a Malkoff M61 right.
It isn't difficult to imagine a small piece of aluminium falling forward into the base of the drop-in.
A short fits in with SubAlpine's additional observation of charred cells.
Like Kestrel and Gunnar I find it hard not to think back to SubAlpine's initial difficulty with the tailcap. Wrenching one on or off simply isn't normal and damage to the threads is almost certain given the gauge of the material and the forces employed. Gunnar's speculation about a chunk of thread being sheared off, possibly shorting within the light, certainly could be a possibility if not a certainty.
In addition to cell to tube wall shorting, here's another possibility for where a short could develop: at the drop-in itself. This photo shows a SolarForce XP-G R5 low voltage drop in left, a Malkoff M61 right.
It isn't difficult to imagine a small piece of aluminium falling forward into the base of the drop-in.
A short fits in with SubAlpine's additional observation of charred cells.
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RI Chevy
Flashlight Enthusiast
Maybe one of the battery wrappers came off and exposed the strip? Maybe too much voltage for the drop in? Still a lot of speculation.
chillinn
Flashlight Enthusiast
subalpine, IANAL, but there are about a half-dozen in the family (I know there are attorneys here, but also know attorneys are tight-lipped with advice as a rule, which I am, of course, not bound by). It is clear to me already, in my non-expert opinion, that this incident is not your fault, and that at least either or both Solarforce and Tenergy, and possibly SB, are culpable for your injuries, pain and suffering, medical expenses, and loss of work.
Many pride themselves on avoiding lawsuits in our litigous society, but when there is a significant injury, pride is not helpful. You have a family, you're losing work, and your injuries, pain and suffering and emergency medical expenses and subsequent medical expenses are considerable, that much is clear. Basically, when you sue, you sue everyone. You need to (or have your wife) contact an attorney, best a firm that specializes in personal injury that can work on contingence (which is ordinary for injury cases), but before that, and as ugly as it might be, you need to fully photo-document your injuries, and as best you can, remember what you can and document the incident as well, save everything, and have all that professionally notorized. It would be best (again, no expert... listen to your attorney) if you did not share too much, or share anything more publicly, nor should you even in the slightest amount accept any blame. No one can legitimately blame you for looking out for yourself and your family's best interests. You might want to contact the mods depending on what your attorney tells you regarding this and previous threads (again, the attorney will tell you the proper course of action).
----
Its also possible that if you own your home that your home owners' insurance can help you out in some way with temporary relief from medical expenses and loss of work, as well as your car insurance. Its even possible one or both of your insurance companies will go to court on your behalf.
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It is important to keep in mind that LiFePO4 cells are not devoid of risk. There have been reports of very serious incidents, e.g. that below where an experienced EV enthusiast (Greg Fordyce) left his EV charging overnight on a very cold night. See here for the original thread, and see here for higher res photos. (The emphasis below is mine, not Greg's).
Greg said:
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RI Chevy
Flashlight Enthusiast
Good advice. I agree 100%! And photograph the entire scene and gather every piece of that light and secure it. Send it to an forensic electrical expert for evaluation. You have to look out for yourself.
välineurheilija
Enlightened
They weren't protected batteries so no strip.
Starting a fire is one thing, but a sudden explosion without warning is another. The video posted earlier showing a dead short took 13 minutes of slowly venting gas before there was an explosion. Not to say the conclusion that there was a battery explosion should be ruled out, but to me it doesn't seem to fit the facts as they are known unless the OP's cells were in fact fakes and were not really LiFePO4 chemistry, but something more volatile, like unprotected ICR.
One aspect of the original account which I feel could do with some clarification is how glass ended up on subalpine's mouth, if that in fact happened at all. If I were holding a light in my mouth, it would be with the glass facing outwards, so in the case of an explosion (whether caused by venting or by thermal shock; it makes no difference), I'd expect glass to shoot forward, away from me. If the result was a cloud of fine glass particles going everywhere, I'd expect to get a lot more in my eyes than my mouth. However, if the light were to vent hydrogen fluoride gas then that could cause some very nasty acid burns that might feel like broken glass, and the gas could have vented through the tail directly into the mouth and throat.
I said before that I'm not sure whether HF venting is a risk with LiFePO4 as it is with other lithium chemistries, but if subalpine hasn't been checked for signs of hydrofluoric acid poisoning then he definitely should be. "Think horses not zebras". The chances of some made-in-China batteries being incorrectly labelled (deliberately or accidentally) is probably a lot higher than for a chemistry widely considered to be very stable to suddenly act like one that is far more volatile. It's better to be safe than sorry when it comes to the medical implications of this.
To put it another way, if the known facts do not fit then at least one of those facts is probably wrong.
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Bullzeyebill
Flashaholic
Please do not change the thread title. Thanks,
Bill
Bill
Bullzeyebill
Flashaholic
Guys let's not continue "arm chair quarter backing" We do not have enough evidence. so we are shooting blanks. Let's wish the OP good health, and later, no doubt, he will give us more information derived from an investigation.
Bill
Bill
Noticed you edited my post, which was weird because I didn't change the thread title. Then noticed it was actually changed by Gauss163, to whom I was replying. You might want to edit that one too in case anyone else replies to it.
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ven
Flashaholic
Very sorry to hear ,wishing you a speedy recovery from across the pond.
RI Chevy
Flashlight Enthusiast
Got it. No strips. Thanks
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