Spain pulls out of Iraq
- Thread starter ikendu
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Topper
Flashaholic*
I love Spanish rice. I support the President of America.
I wanted to stay out of this. I am pleased with the fact that Saddam is out. If you like him fine. Spanish troops?
It has been awhile, unless things changed they are still a real force. Changing sides on different posts? I do not understand. I am not Baiting just tossing in my 2 cents.
Topper
I wanted to stay out of this. I am pleased with the fact that Saddam is out. If you like him fine. Spanish troops?
It has been awhile, unless things changed they are still a real force. Changing sides on different posts? I do not understand. I am not Baiting just tossing in my 2 cents.
Topper
jayflash
Flashlight Enthusiast
Topper, I think we're all glad Saddam is kaput.
Why does this reference to liking Saddam continue to crop up in every Iraq debate?
Taking issue with policy or actions has NOTHING to do with support of that tyrant.
Why does this reference to liking Saddam continue to crop up in every Iraq debate?
Taking issue with policy or actions has NOTHING to do with support of that tyrant.
Icebreak
Flashlight Enthusiast
Your welcome. If you get a chance, Rule Number #5 shows how to customize URLs. Glad I could help.
Back to the interesting dialog.
Back to the interesting dialog.
Topper
Flashaholic*
jayflash,I wish you were right. I will not quote you can read the thread over if you wish.
Jayflash, I do not consider Iraq as a debate. We have folks over there that are defending your right to debate. There are some Folks willing to stand with those that feel the same.
Topper
Jayflash, I do not consider Iraq as a debate. We have folks over there that are defending your right to debate. There are some Folks willing to stand with those that feel the same.
Topper
Interesting to say our folks are in Iraq to defend our right to debate, when these same folks shut down an Iraq newspaper ( helping spark the current crisis). I guess we do not think the Iraq people have the same equal right to debate.
Topper
Flashaholic*
Dark star I resepect your right to make fun of me.
I would shut down some here if I was in charge. I am not. good thing. That is my last post on this thread.
Topper /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif
I would shut down some here if I was in charge. I am not. good thing. That is my last post on this thread.
Topper /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif
Ok... for this post, I am not an administrator. I remove my hat. Any administrators who want to slap my wrist or ban me for this post... feel free... I'm sure I'll deserve it... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon6.gif
I find it very strange that when the United States was attacked on September 11, 2001, the American people were screaming for vengeance. The compassion that poured from every corner of this great nation was the likes of which I doubt we've ever seen. The entire world felt our pain as the horror of that day played over and over and over for months. The entire world was effected by that day.
But it didn't take long for people to go back to their selfish ways. Screw the rest of the world... screw our fellow Americans... it's all about ME! However, at that point we had already deployed our troops to Afghanistan... because the people DEMANDED payback! Well now all of a sudden... "oh! we shouldn't put our sons and daughters lives at risk for oil!"... HUH?!?!?
And then Saddam started up with his crap again... and the UN and it's *****-politics refused to enforce the sanctions that it had imposed... further putting the world at risk and further condemning an entire nation of people to an existance of oppression, slavery, abuse, poverty, torture and murder.
Where's your compassion now people? Oh, that's right... it's all about YOU!!! It doesn't effect you, so who gives a damn? Only when it's in your own back yard does it matter. Well guess what? Those two planes that flew into the WTC WERE in your own back yard! Didn't feel very good, did it? Kinda sucked, didn't it? How many people died that day? You cared because they were AMERICANS... but you could care less if they are on the other side of the world... and let me tell you right now, the number of Iraqi citizens that have died at the hands of Saddam and his thugs makes the numbers from 9-11 look like chump change.
You sit here and whine about WMD and who did what and who's only wanting to line their pockets... who cares?!?!? Does it matter what reasons we used to go over there to free those people? Do you think they really give a rat's *** what our reasons were? They were just happy we came. And unless you've been over there and talked with these people yourselves, you truly have no idea what they think. And if you think that CNN or any other news agency is giving you the REAL story, then I have a bridge for you.
But screw them! We got Saddam, now let them rebuild their own country and government. Well guess what? It wouldn't happen. Because the very people who are killing the coalition troops would take over in a hearbeat and things would go right back to the way they were with Saddam. And again... if you believe otherwise, I have a second bridge for you.
And now this thing with Spain. The compassion that came from this board the day that they were bombed warmed my heart to no end. And you all embraced the flag that I put up in remembrance of those who died that day. You all felt the pain again... the pain that you felt on September 11, 2001. The world felt it. And now here we go again... the compassion is gone and screw those assholes! Take down the flag!!!
I'm so sick of the selfishness and lack of compassion that is displayed on a daily basis in this world. We are all HUMANS and we all feel pain. It's unfortunate though that some only feel it when it effects them and screw anyone else. How quick they are to turn their backs on their fellow humans... as long as it's not in their back yard. God help you all when it is again. You'll have no one to blame but yourselves when everyone looks at you and says, "Screw you!"
I find it very strange that when the United States was attacked on September 11, 2001, the American people were screaming for vengeance. The compassion that poured from every corner of this great nation was the likes of which I doubt we've ever seen. The entire world felt our pain as the horror of that day played over and over and over for months. The entire world was effected by that day.
But it didn't take long for people to go back to their selfish ways. Screw the rest of the world... screw our fellow Americans... it's all about ME! However, at that point we had already deployed our troops to Afghanistan... because the people DEMANDED payback! Well now all of a sudden... "oh! we shouldn't put our sons and daughters lives at risk for oil!"... HUH?!?!?
And then Saddam started up with his crap again... and the UN and it's *****-politics refused to enforce the sanctions that it had imposed... further putting the world at risk and further condemning an entire nation of people to an existance of oppression, slavery, abuse, poverty, torture and murder.
Where's your compassion now people? Oh, that's right... it's all about YOU!!! It doesn't effect you, so who gives a damn? Only when it's in your own back yard does it matter. Well guess what? Those two planes that flew into the WTC WERE in your own back yard! Didn't feel very good, did it? Kinda sucked, didn't it? How many people died that day? You cared because they were AMERICANS... but you could care less if they are on the other side of the world... and let me tell you right now, the number of Iraqi citizens that have died at the hands of Saddam and his thugs makes the numbers from 9-11 look like chump change.
You sit here and whine about WMD and who did what and who's only wanting to line their pockets... who cares?!?!? Does it matter what reasons we used to go over there to free those people? Do you think they really give a rat's *** what our reasons were? They were just happy we came. And unless you've been over there and talked with these people yourselves, you truly have no idea what they think. And if you think that CNN or any other news agency is giving you the REAL story, then I have a bridge for you.
But screw them! We got Saddam, now let them rebuild their own country and government. Well guess what? It wouldn't happen. Because the very people who are killing the coalition troops would take over in a hearbeat and things would go right back to the way they were with Saddam. And again... if you believe otherwise, I have a second bridge for you.
And now this thing with Spain. The compassion that came from this board the day that they were bombed warmed my heart to no end. And you all embraced the flag that I put up in remembrance of those who died that day. You all felt the pain again... the pain that you felt on September 11, 2001. The world felt it. And now here we go again... the compassion is gone and screw those assholes! Take down the flag!!!
I'm so sick of the selfishness and lack of compassion that is displayed on a daily basis in this world. We are all HUMANS and we all feel pain. It's unfortunate though that some only feel it when it effects them and screw anyone else. How quick they are to turn their backs on their fellow humans... as long as it's not in their back yard. God help you all when it is again. You'll have no one to blame but yourselves when everyone looks at you and says, "Screw you!"
darkgear.com
Enlightened
I had 9-11 on tape(can't find it since I moved). CNN should just play back the whole day on an anniversary. Watching the whole thing again stirs soooo much emotion. People need to remember what it was like that day...
The Congo lost about three million people in their recent war. In Rwanda, roughly one million more people were killed in only a few months, and a lot of estimates said that 1000 peacekeepers could have averted the entire thing. And Clinton knew, and refused to send them, according to some reports.
Neither the US, or the UN did anything effective in either case, and that's 4,000,000 dead people. 4 million people. We didn't lift a finger.
Although it would only cost about $40 million to eradicate polio, they're having trouble finding the money, and we just spent about $80 billion dollars plus going to Iraq. Iraq was a secular socialist country - secular, as in non-Islamic - they came down hard on their militants to safeguard the current regime. They had free, if basic health care, and free, and quite good, education. Rather like Tito in Yugoslavia, the dictator, though nasty, held the lid on an incredibly violent and explosive set of ethnic and religious rivalries spanning the centuries.
Now, everybody hated the heck out of Hussein, and if you were a political opponent, he was a monster. But the basic quality of life was pretty middle-class for most people most of the time. It was a dictatorship, but nothing like North Korea where people are literally starving to death by the thousands. Iraq wasn't supporting Al Qaeda - in fact, they'd been on the Islamic Fundamentalist Hit List for a long time because they were resisting the spread of radical islam to protect Hussein's power.
We could, and should, have left well alone if there were no WMD.
Because, when all's said and done, it is going to require a miracle from god to give the average Iraqi more liberty than they had under Hussein. Well over 50% of the population of Iraq wants a fundamentalist muslim theocracy in Iraq - to turn Iraq into a second Iran.
If we give them democracy, they'll vote in a clerical dictator.
Rather than chasing around non-existent weapons, we should have made sure the Saudis were hunting down every last Al Qaeda donor in Saudi Arabia and putting them on trial, restoring rule of law of Afghanistan, rather than invading, turning the place over, and then abandoning it. We should have taken care of our problem with terrorism, rather than fighting strategic wars under the lie of fighting the war on terror.
And make no mistake, Iraq is a strategic war. Getting US troops out of Saudi Arabia has been a key foreign policy goal for years. Moving them into Iraq solves a lot of political problems, and conveniently parks out tanks on something like a third of the world's oil supply. Completely cold-heartedly it makes a lot of sense, and I can imagine that clear eyed people in the Pentagon could see it as a necessary plan.
But not me.
And if we wanted to do some good in the world, eradicating polio would have been a cheep, good start.
In the long run, the invasion of Iraq is almost certainly going to turn out to be a human welfare disaster for the people of Iraq. If we did it to save them from Hussein, we should have given a lot more thought to what was going to happen, and how we were going to save them from themselves and each other.
The Economist on Rwanda:
http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2536344
Literally the morning after 9/11, according to Richard Clarke, George Bush and **** Cheney started trying to pin the attack on Iraq. Clarke, Tenet and others told them squarely that Al Qaeda was in Afghanistan, and not Iraq, and yet we invaded. There are no weapons, and whatever happens now our nation is responsible for.
Neither the US, or the UN did anything effective in either case, and that's 4,000,000 dead people. 4 million people. We didn't lift a finger.
Although it would only cost about $40 million to eradicate polio, they're having trouble finding the money, and we just spent about $80 billion dollars plus going to Iraq. Iraq was a secular socialist country - secular, as in non-Islamic - they came down hard on their militants to safeguard the current regime. They had free, if basic health care, and free, and quite good, education. Rather like Tito in Yugoslavia, the dictator, though nasty, held the lid on an incredibly violent and explosive set of ethnic and religious rivalries spanning the centuries.
Now, everybody hated the heck out of Hussein, and if you were a political opponent, he was a monster. But the basic quality of life was pretty middle-class for most people most of the time. It was a dictatorship, but nothing like North Korea where people are literally starving to death by the thousands. Iraq wasn't supporting Al Qaeda - in fact, they'd been on the Islamic Fundamentalist Hit List for a long time because they were resisting the spread of radical islam to protect Hussein's power.
We could, and should, have left well alone if there were no WMD.
Because, when all's said and done, it is going to require a miracle from god to give the average Iraqi more liberty than they had under Hussein. Well over 50% of the population of Iraq wants a fundamentalist muslim theocracy in Iraq - to turn Iraq into a second Iran.
If we give them democracy, they'll vote in a clerical dictator.
Rather than chasing around non-existent weapons, we should have made sure the Saudis were hunting down every last Al Qaeda donor in Saudi Arabia and putting them on trial, restoring rule of law of Afghanistan, rather than invading, turning the place over, and then abandoning it. We should have taken care of our problem with terrorism, rather than fighting strategic wars under the lie of fighting the war on terror.
And make no mistake, Iraq is a strategic war. Getting US troops out of Saudi Arabia has been a key foreign policy goal for years. Moving them into Iraq solves a lot of political problems, and conveniently parks out tanks on something like a third of the world's oil supply. Completely cold-heartedly it makes a lot of sense, and I can imagine that clear eyed people in the Pentagon could see it as a necessary plan.
But not me.
And if we wanted to do some good in the world, eradicating polio would have been a cheep, good start.
In the long run, the invasion of Iraq is almost certainly going to turn out to be a human welfare disaster for the people of Iraq. If we did it to save them from Hussein, we should have given a lot more thought to what was going to happen, and how we were going to save them from themselves and each other.
The Economist on Rwanda:
http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2536344
Literally the morning after 9/11, according to Richard Clarke, George Bush and **** Cheney started trying to pin the attack on Iraq. Clarke, Tenet and others told them squarely that Al Qaeda was in Afghanistan, and not Iraq, and yet we invaded. There are no weapons, and whatever happens now our nation is responsible for.
Jack_Crow
Enlightened
Ms. Sasha,
Nicely put.
I was near the Pentagon Impact on 9-11.
I saw what those *******s did to us, to our people.
There is a reason why Im here, more than a pay check.
There is a reason why I do more than the minimum to get by here.
Ive helped the MP's set up a new cop radio system.
Put on the air an FM stereo station for the troopers to relax with.
I fix blown up PC power supply's for the Guard units serving here.
All of this is above and byond my contract duties.
Why, because it helps the war effort.
It saves some money and time.
It makes a tough life just a little better.
No doubt it burns my buns that some people whine about this and that. It's their right to do so. I have a bear of a time respecting the thinking.
What can I say to such people. Come to Iraq if you have the stones.
I have worked on the edge of the chemical weapons de mil business. Nerve gas is the most nasty stuff. I was always jumpey at any Nerve Gas plant. Even mustard gas gives me the creeps. Fortunatly our country is geting rid of this stuff as quickly as possible. The thought of more in the world makes any sane human twitch.
No doubt there were chemical weapons here. Several thousand dead Kurds and Iranians can't be wrong. It's a major releif that we diden't find any. Disposing of stuff here would be a major cost expense.
The poverty here is stagering. You may have witnessed poverty back home, but that's mild compared to what I saw on the road here.
This country has been on a train wreck for 25 years, and now it's starting to get it's act togther. The difference between Kuwait and Iraq are huge. When I take my vacation in July, I will find a way to link some photos here.
It's one thing to sit in a nice warm home and type out things that sound good. Try it here.
Much luck
Jack Crow in SCANIA Iraq, near the town of Nippur
Nicely put.
I was near the Pentagon Impact on 9-11.
I saw what those *******s did to us, to our people.
There is a reason why Im here, more than a pay check.
There is a reason why I do more than the minimum to get by here.
Ive helped the MP's set up a new cop radio system.
Put on the air an FM stereo station for the troopers to relax with.
I fix blown up PC power supply's for the Guard units serving here.
All of this is above and byond my contract duties.
Why, because it helps the war effort.
It saves some money and time.
It makes a tough life just a little better.
No doubt it burns my buns that some people whine about this and that. It's their right to do so. I have a bear of a time respecting the thinking.
What can I say to such people. Come to Iraq if you have the stones.
I have worked on the edge of the chemical weapons de mil business. Nerve gas is the most nasty stuff. I was always jumpey at any Nerve Gas plant. Even mustard gas gives me the creeps. Fortunatly our country is geting rid of this stuff as quickly as possible. The thought of more in the world makes any sane human twitch.
No doubt there were chemical weapons here. Several thousand dead Kurds and Iranians can't be wrong. It's a major releif that we diden't find any. Disposing of stuff here would be a major cost expense.
The poverty here is stagering. You may have witnessed poverty back home, but that's mild compared to what I saw on the road here.
This country has been on a train wreck for 25 years, and now it's starting to get it's act togther. The difference between Kuwait and Iraq are huge. When I take my vacation in July, I will find a way to link some photos here.
It's one thing to sit in a nice warm home and type out things that sound good. Try it here.
Much luck
Jack Crow in SCANIA Iraq, near the town of Nippur
And, what I'm saying, in a nutshell, is this. We should get out of Iraq as soon as possible, and in the regions where some other power is able to maintain rule of law, simply hand it to them and withdraw.
Anything else is going to result in perpeual war and uprisings, killing many Iraqis and Americans for no good reason. Ethnic violence is almost certain in the long run, and invasion by Iran or Turkey not unlikely, but the alternative is for the US to remain as police and peacekeepers over a people who simply do not want us to rule their country.
Anything else is going to result in perpeual war and uprisings, killing many Iraqis and Americans for no good reason. Ethnic violence is almost certain in the long run, and invasion by Iran or Turkey not unlikely, but the alternative is for the US to remain as police and peacekeepers over a people who simply do not want us to rule their country.
IlluminatingBikr
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2003
- Messages
- 2,320
Sasha,
Brilliantly said. I couldn't agree more. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif
Brilliantly said. I couldn't agree more. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif
Sub_Umbra
Flashlight Enthusiast
[ QUOTE ]
Muppet:
I hope you can understand that, from my perspective, we ignored much, much worse situations and still do because they have no long-term strategic value.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bingo!
Muppet:
I hope you can understand that, from my perspective, we ignored much, much worse situations and still do because they have no long-term strategic value.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bingo!
DieselDave
Super Moderator,
One of the really sad parts of this thread is that if we had a Democrat in charge the libs would be expounding about how we are in Iraq liberating the poor and down trodden. They would speak of children, death squads and how the near genocide of the Kurds was plenty of proof of Iraq's WMD capability. The conservatives would be saying we need to get a guy that would not ***** foot around and finish the job. They would be screaming about the deficit and would want a firm date of when our troops were coming home. They would talk about the huge cuts in the military and intelligence caused us to be errant about the existence of WMD's. Richard Clarke wouldn't have written a book and might still have a job. 40% of the population would be on the other side of where they are now. I say 40% because most republicans would continue to support our troops and the war and not just with "I support our troops but…"
Partisan politics are part of life but when the views of the partisans are misleading and often-outright fabrications that fuel our enemies' resolve then they are dead wrong. IMO the Ted Kennedy's of the country are responsible for the death of some of our service members by their vicious and irresponsible self-serving comments. If you think I'm out of line then before bashing me give an honest answer to this question. If Bill Clinton was still President and we were at this time and place would Ted be saying the same things he is today? Don't give me a BS response that Willy wouldn't be there, that's not the question. If you say he would then I would submit you are so blind to reality there is no point to debate. I would enjoy reading your response even more if you think he (Ted) would still be saying, "Iraq is Clinton's Vietnam" and I promise not to attack you for believing it. Those of you that think we wouldn't be in Iraq fighting a war if Clinton were still President are probably right. By the same token I think there would be a good chance we would have experienced several more World Trade Centers type attacks right here at home if we had a more popularity poll driven President.
IMO Spain has made a mistake that will cost them later. What will be demanded of them next now that's it shown they are a "whipping boy" country, same thing for Honduras. Hell, even if you wanted to leave you can't. The bully has drawn a line in the sand and if you walk away you will never be able to face him again with his newfound confidence.
I fear another major attack in the US prior to the election now that the Al Quida's and the likes have been emboldened by the Spain's and Ted Kennedy's of the world but there will be a big difference at the result. Another attack on US soil will temporarily reunite us as a country again and will not bode well for Americans wanting appeasement. We have a long-standing history that extends from how we handle kidnappings to Bullies. Draw a line in the sand of America and she will kick the sand in your face and then really get mad. I love this place and hope we can put our differences aside and unite against a common foe. If you think we are right or wrong to be in Iraq it really doesn't matter, we are there. It's our friends and families fighting and they are on OUR side. So, if for love of family and friends if nothing else don't encourage our enemy. If you don't look at Saddam and all of the radical elements of Islam as our enemy them we will probably have a hard time finding any common ground. I am guessing there are those here that believe there is no justification for war regardless of political affiliation or beliefs. I respect that opinion and wish you all the best.
I believe war with Iraq was unavoidable. I believe this for some of the same reasons others think the war is bad or wrong. If we would have kept on with the saber-rattling we would have lost creditability with the world but most importantly with those that threaten our existence. The other side of the argument comes to the opposite conclusion. That is a difference of opinion I won't attempt to address. We had 11 years of resolutions and mostly idle threats. The world community watched as we did nothing or lobbed a few missiles. The terrorist were watching as well and became more bold and frequent in their attacks. The experts on every side of the aisle said Iraq had WMD and we continued to make threats and do little and the terrorist watched and learned. They made attacks and we arrested a few people, big deal. We were losing the war on terror. Who do blame for this lack of action? The Republicans blame Clinton and the Democrats blame Bush. I blame Bush 1, Clinton, Bush 2 and the apathy/selfishness of the American people. We should have crushed Saddam in 91. We should have waged all out war after the first World Trade Center bombing, or even further back than that after the Pan-Am flight bombing or the Beirut Barracks bombing. We should have voted the likes of Ted Kennedy out of office and the list goes on. We had our head in the sand far too long and now we continue to pay the price with American lives. Iraq is about far more than WMD or oil, it's about resolve. Getting Osama is also a very important symbol and must be pursued to its end. Understanding that no matter what we do there will be many terror groups, mostly Islamic that will hate us and try to kill us just for who we are is vitally important. There is only one way to defeat terrorism and that's is to kill as many of them as possible. Not capture, not incarcerate, kill. Death is a concept understood by all. I don't believe for a second there are thousands of people excited at the concept of meeting Alla with a bomb strapped to their belly.
We can argue the justification for going into Iraq from now until we have world peace and it won't make a hill of beans. Good or bad Iraq is not a war we can lose or abandon. Even John Kerry knows this to be fact and even though he may hate it, it's reality. Making all the links to why it's Bush's or Clinton's fault or anyone else for that matter resolves nothing not to mention it's largely based on pundit spin using half-truths and wishful thinking.
Partisan politics are part of life but when the views of the partisans are misleading and often-outright fabrications that fuel our enemies' resolve then they are dead wrong. IMO the Ted Kennedy's of the country are responsible for the death of some of our service members by their vicious and irresponsible self-serving comments. If you think I'm out of line then before bashing me give an honest answer to this question. If Bill Clinton was still President and we were at this time and place would Ted be saying the same things he is today? Don't give me a BS response that Willy wouldn't be there, that's not the question. If you say he would then I would submit you are so blind to reality there is no point to debate. I would enjoy reading your response even more if you think he (Ted) would still be saying, "Iraq is Clinton's Vietnam" and I promise not to attack you for believing it. Those of you that think we wouldn't be in Iraq fighting a war if Clinton were still President are probably right. By the same token I think there would be a good chance we would have experienced several more World Trade Centers type attacks right here at home if we had a more popularity poll driven President.
IMO Spain has made a mistake that will cost them later. What will be demanded of them next now that's it shown they are a "whipping boy" country, same thing for Honduras. Hell, even if you wanted to leave you can't. The bully has drawn a line in the sand and if you walk away you will never be able to face him again with his newfound confidence.
I fear another major attack in the US prior to the election now that the Al Quida's and the likes have been emboldened by the Spain's and Ted Kennedy's of the world but there will be a big difference at the result. Another attack on US soil will temporarily reunite us as a country again and will not bode well for Americans wanting appeasement. We have a long-standing history that extends from how we handle kidnappings to Bullies. Draw a line in the sand of America and she will kick the sand in your face and then really get mad. I love this place and hope we can put our differences aside and unite against a common foe. If you think we are right or wrong to be in Iraq it really doesn't matter, we are there. It's our friends and families fighting and they are on OUR side. So, if for love of family and friends if nothing else don't encourage our enemy. If you don't look at Saddam and all of the radical elements of Islam as our enemy them we will probably have a hard time finding any common ground. I am guessing there are those here that believe there is no justification for war regardless of political affiliation or beliefs. I respect that opinion and wish you all the best.
I believe war with Iraq was unavoidable. I believe this for some of the same reasons others think the war is bad or wrong. If we would have kept on with the saber-rattling we would have lost creditability with the world but most importantly with those that threaten our existence. The other side of the argument comes to the opposite conclusion. That is a difference of opinion I won't attempt to address. We had 11 years of resolutions and mostly idle threats. The world community watched as we did nothing or lobbed a few missiles. The terrorist were watching as well and became more bold and frequent in their attacks. The experts on every side of the aisle said Iraq had WMD and we continued to make threats and do little and the terrorist watched and learned. They made attacks and we arrested a few people, big deal. We were losing the war on terror. Who do blame for this lack of action? The Republicans blame Clinton and the Democrats blame Bush. I blame Bush 1, Clinton, Bush 2 and the apathy/selfishness of the American people. We should have crushed Saddam in 91. We should have waged all out war after the first World Trade Center bombing, or even further back than that after the Pan-Am flight bombing or the Beirut Barracks bombing. We should have voted the likes of Ted Kennedy out of office and the list goes on. We had our head in the sand far too long and now we continue to pay the price with American lives. Iraq is about far more than WMD or oil, it's about resolve. Getting Osama is also a very important symbol and must be pursued to its end. Understanding that no matter what we do there will be many terror groups, mostly Islamic that will hate us and try to kill us just for who we are is vitally important. There is only one way to defeat terrorism and that's is to kill as many of them as possible. Not capture, not incarcerate, kill. Death is a concept understood by all. I don't believe for a second there are thousands of people excited at the concept of meeting Alla with a bomb strapped to their belly.
We can argue the justification for going into Iraq from now until we have world peace and it won't make a hill of beans. Good or bad Iraq is not a war we can lose or abandon. Even John Kerry knows this to be fact and even though he may hate it, it's reality. Making all the links to why it's Bush's or Clinton's fault or anyone else for that matter resolves nothing not to mention it's largely based on pundit spin using half-truths and wishful thinking.
BB
Flashlight Enthusiast
Rather than going down the rat-hole of Republican vs Democrat and who did or would do what or who won what--at least these guys have to run in elections every 2-6 years. Or, going back and re-documenting Iraq's involvement with the first World Trade Center Bombing, funding of Hamas, PLO, harboring terrorists in Baghdad, working with Libya, North Korea, et. al.--Let us look forward at what the UN has done recently regarding a couple world problems.
The UN has never been, and never will be accountable for anything positive. Remember Kosovo? The UN is still there and More NATO troops for Kosovo:
[ QUOTE ]
From correspondents in Pristina, Serbia
March 20, 2004
ADDITIONAL NATO troops were on the ground in Kosovo today as the alliance struggled to prevent further violence in what it has termed "ethnic cleansing" by Albanians against Serbs.
The violence has forced around 900 Serbs in the UN-administered Serbian province to take refuge in NATO camps over the past few days, a source close to the multinational KFOR force said.
Admiral Gregory Johnson, NATO commander for southern Europe, denounced the violence, in which 32 people have died and more than 600 have been wounded, as "ethnic cleansing".
Anger mounted in Serbia, the sovereign power in the province, which has been administered by the United Nations since the end of the 1998-1999 war between Serbs and ethnic Albanians.
At a service in Saint-Sava Cathedral in memory of the Serb victims, Amfilohije, the Metropolitan Bishop of Montenegro, placed all the blame on the Muslim, ethnic Albanian majority in Kosovo.
[/ QUOTE ]
Remember Oil for Food? Well, besides the investigation to find out who was skimming what in the UN, there is now this:
Oil-for-Terror?
[ QUOTE ]
There appears to be much worse news to uncover in the Oil-for-Food scandal.
By Claudia Rosett--April 18, 2004
Beyond the billions in graft, smuggling, and lavish living for Saddam Hussein that were the hallmarks of the United Nations Oil-for-Food program in Iraq, there is one more penny yet to drop.
It's time to talk about Oil-for-Terror.
Especially with the U.N.'s own investigation into Oil-for-Food now taking shape, and more congressional hearings in the works, it is high time to focus on the likelihood that Saddam may have fiddled Oil-for-Food contracts not only to pad his own pockets, buy pals, and acquire clandestine arms — but also to fund terrorist groups, quite possibly including al Qaeda.
There are at least two links documented already. Both involve oil buyers picked by Saddam and approved by the U.N. One was a firm with close ties to a Liechtenstein trust that has since been designated by the U.N. itself as "belonging to or affiliated with Al Qaeda." The other was a Swiss-registered subsidiary of a Saudi oil firm that had close dealings with the Taliban during Osama bin Laden's 1990's heyday in Afghanistan.
[/ QUOTE ]
I feel very sorry for what happened to Spain and her people, and I believe that they have made a wrong decision. But it is their decision and one that they will have to live with--and the US will be there if they need us.
But for those that believe the UN will solve any problem out there--I believe the UN will bring the destruction of the civilized world if we let it "manage" the world's problems.
-Bill
The UN has never been, and never will be accountable for anything positive. Remember Kosovo? The UN is still there and More NATO troops for Kosovo:
[ QUOTE ]
From correspondents in Pristina, Serbia
March 20, 2004
ADDITIONAL NATO troops were on the ground in Kosovo today as the alliance struggled to prevent further violence in what it has termed "ethnic cleansing" by Albanians against Serbs.
The violence has forced around 900 Serbs in the UN-administered Serbian province to take refuge in NATO camps over the past few days, a source close to the multinational KFOR force said.
Admiral Gregory Johnson, NATO commander for southern Europe, denounced the violence, in which 32 people have died and more than 600 have been wounded, as "ethnic cleansing".
Anger mounted in Serbia, the sovereign power in the province, which has been administered by the United Nations since the end of the 1998-1999 war between Serbs and ethnic Albanians.
At a service in Saint-Sava Cathedral in memory of the Serb victims, Amfilohije, the Metropolitan Bishop of Montenegro, placed all the blame on the Muslim, ethnic Albanian majority in Kosovo.
[/ QUOTE ]
Remember Oil for Food? Well, besides the investigation to find out who was skimming what in the UN, there is now this:
Oil-for-Terror?
[ QUOTE ]
There appears to be much worse news to uncover in the Oil-for-Food scandal.
By Claudia Rosett--April 18, 2004
Beyond the billions in graft, smuggling, and lavish living for Saddam Hussein that were the hallmarks of the United Nations Oil-for-Food program in Iraq, there is one more penny yet to drop.
It's time to talk about Oil-for-Terror.
Especially with the U.N.'s own investigation into Oil-for-Food now taking shape, and more congressional hearings in the works, it is high time to focus on the likelihood that Saddam may have fiddled Oil-for-Food contracts not only to pad his own pockets, buy pals, and acquire clandestine arms — but also to fund terrorist groups, quite possibly including al Qaeda.
There are at least two links documented already. Both involve oil buyers picked by Saddam and approved by the U.N. One was a firm with close ties to a Liechtenstein trust that has since been designated by the U.N. itself as "belonging to or affiliated with Al Qaeda." The other was a Swiss-registered subsidiary of a Saudi oil firm that had close dealings with the Taliban during Osama bin Laden's 1990's heyday in Afghanistan.
[/ QUOTE ]
I feel very sorry for what happened to Spain and her people, and I believe that they have made a wrong decision. But it is their decision and one that they will have to live with--and the US will be there if they need us.
But for those that believe the UN will solve any problem out there--I believe the UN will bring the destruction of the civilized world if we let it "manage" the world's problems.
-Bill
Darell
Flashaholic
Just one question for you, Dave.
[ QUOTE ]
Good or bad Iraq is not a war we can lose or abandon.
[/ QUOTE ]How do we determine when we've "won" this war?
[ QUOTE ]
Good or bad Iraq is not a war we can lose or abandon.
[/ QUOTE ]How do we determine when we've "won" this war?
