Specific Gun Reco for Ca Guy

SoCal80

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Pasadena, CA
Hey everyone! New here and just wanting to find out what specific gun you guys would recommend for someone living in Ca. I have researched and found out we have a lot of laws in place that restricts us on lots of guns we could buy legally to use in CA.

I am looking for a gun to use as self defense but also to use at the range. I am interested to hear what people would recommend for hand guns and riffles. This weekend I am hoping to get out to one of the local gun ranges to try out the glock, sig, and hk.

Any information/opinions would be much appreciated. Thanks and look forward to going through old threads to learn new things.

Steve
 

nerdgineer

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In case you haven't looked at it already, this thread covers a lot of the issues and recommendations:

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=91675

Biggest difference in CA is that you're still stuck with 10 round mags, so high capacity 9mms won't be able to loaded to their full potential here. You'll probably get a lot of advice about safety before you get specifics on a gun.
 

CLHC

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Each particular "high-powered tool" varies from person to person. The ones that suits me fine are the following: Beretta 92FS, Heckler-Koch USP Tactical, Sig Sauer P220 & P226. These fit like an extension of my hand and are balanced. Much like you know what fits your hand and "feels" right. You'll have to try each one.

My brother has a CCW and on his person is a Glock while his wife (also has a CCW) totes a Lady S&W in her bag/satchel. I don't have a CCW and for me, and that's just me, I do things according to the law of the land (including California) because I sure as "Heckler" do not want to ruin my chances for future purchases (though not just relegated to firearms only)—among other things and for others.

As for long-guns, the Benelli M1 S90T w/VCS, SGT SR870, Colt's M-HBAR suits me to a "T".

Just my 1* worth. . .
 

AJ_Dual

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Re: Specific Gun Reco for Ca Guy (warning LONG)

There really are lots of questions that need to be answered first. If anything, the subject of firearms is as diverse as flashlights, computers or cars. We established gunnies need to know what your expectations and needs for the firearm are.

What do you want the handgun for?

Self-defense for home,
Self defense for concealed carry (If you live in a CA county that issues permits),
Both home and concealed carry self defense
Range/target practice/plinking
Handgun hunting large game or small game
A hunting/fishing/camping backup (bears, cougars)
A combination of some or all the above?

How much do you intend to practice and/or shoot the handgun recreationally? Have you ever fired a handgun before, more than one kind? If so, did you like one more than another? Would you consider, or do you plan on, owning more than one firearm to eventually meet more than one need? Do you know firearms knowledgeable individuals that could help you practice, or even if they're unfamiliar with your choice, at least operate most any firearm safely until you have sufficient skill? (It sounds as if you do...)

These all have direct bearing on what type of firearm might be best for you. Perhaps it's not even a handgun that best suits your needs. Perhaps you have needs that can only be met by more than one firearm...

CA has the "approved handgun list" which means the mfg. has to submit to all sorts of safety, trigger, and drop tests, and has to have a certain minimum of safety features. Of course anyone who has more than two firing neurons in their skull knows this is really just CA's way of trying to hinder and limit handgun ownership, but I digress. There's still plenty of choices available so far, and if you find your "must have" handgun is not on the approved list, used guns made and sold before the list went into effect are still legal for sale as consignment through a dealer.

If you plan to practice frequently, (at least several times a year) and/or use the handgun recreationally at a range or on legal land of sufficient size and emptiness, the list of recommendations is endless. There are many, many, quality handguns, both revolvers and autos, that will be suitable for target and self defense use if you plan on taking the time to practice and familiarize yourself with the firearm. Gun people may debate the qualities of various manufacturers and models, but from a choice of top-tier makers, any selection should be fine from a quality standpoint: Glock, Ruger, Sig Sauer, Smith & Wesson, Colt, Walther, Kimber, Springfield Armory, Kahr, CZ, Baretta, Steyr, Taurus, (And I haven't mentioned them all) are all fine brands with different offerings.

If you are inspired by recent events, (Katrina 9/11 etc.), or just by "normal" crime, and see how easily social order can break down in a widespread or local emergency, and feel a firearm might be a prudent investment. However, you don't plan on becoming a "gun nut" who will practice regularly beyond a minimum required to be safe, and have some chance of hitting your target in a basic defensive situation, I do have some pretty concrete ideas. (Practice and becoming a "gun nut" is preferable from a skill and safety standpoint, but I wish to be realistic with what type of buyer you may be.)

Handgun:

For the "buy it, shoot it once-twice, and store it at home until an emergency" kind of owner, I'd recommend a mid-sized 3" or 4" barreled .357 Magnum revolver from Smith & Wesson, Colt, Ruger, or Taurus, probably in stainless steel since you won't be cleaning it frequently . It is extremely easy to operate, simple to load, and accidents are les likely since the user can see if there are rounds in the cylinder immediately, whereas ammunition in an auto with a magazine is "hidden", and can even still be loaded and fire with the magazine removed. (A common and tragic mistake.)

Also, if kept loaded, as it ought to be if kept for defense, all the springs and parts are at rest. The position of the trigger and hammer are no different on a fully loaded revolver than an empty one. All you need to do to fire a loaded revolver is pick it up, aim, and pull the trigger. If you're not going to get a significant amount of practice, autos often have safeties and catches that could hinder or confuse the user in an emergency if they're not intimately familiar with their operation to the point of reflex in an emergency. There are autos with no external safeties, such as Glocks, Steyr, and the Walther/Smith & Wesson 99, other than a special "safety" trigger, but the trigger pull is generally lighter than a revolver, and are somewhat more accident prone with an under-educated owner.

The .357 Magnum may sound intimidating or excessive, but I assure you it is a normal and mainstream defensive round, and was commonly carried by police up until autos became popular in the 1980's over revolvers for law enforcement. It is a powerful round, but is still within the limit of what most people can control with a little practice. The .357 is also very versatile, in that .357 revolvers can chamber and fire lesser .38 Special ammunition for practice, or if recoil or sensitivity becomes an issue. Despite the difference in numbers, .357 is really just a slightly lengthened .38 Special so it can contain more powder, and also so it will not fit in weaker .38 Special-only guns for safety reasons. .357 is still a very popular caliber today, and is available at any gun-store or hunting counter across the country.

The downsides to a revolver are the capacity, usually only 6 rounds, although 7 and even 8 round models are available. They are also potentially slower to reload as compared to a magazine change in an auto. However this is countered by the fact that multi-round gunfights in private self-defense situations are extremely rare. There are speed loaders that can carry and put all the rounds into a revolver's cylinder at once available as a popular accessory. And, rapid magazine changes under stress or fire with an auto is something that must be practiced many times before you can expect to be truly efficient. The last downside is that revolvers, or any handgun is on average, is more difficult to hit with than a rifle, carbine or shotgun. The shorter length, and the way they are held, just make this a fact of life, even for proficient shooters. A well practiced shooter may easily be more accurate with a handgun, than a novice with a rifle, but both will still see an improvement with a long arm.

Shotgun:

If it is to only defend your home, and not be carried about, or concealed with a permit, I might also recommend a pump-action 12 gauge shotgun, probably a Remington 870 or a Mossberg 500. There are lots of misconceptions about shotguns, even sometimes from "gun nuts" who ought to know better. Things like "you don't have to aim", "it will clear out a whole room" are utter B.S. Unless you live in an incredibly large mansion, any shotgun load will not spread wider than your outstretched fingers inside most any home. It will also not spread much wider than an individual adult human being inside the longest distance in the average suburban yard. (note: shooting at people outside your home is likely to get you in trouble, especially in CA without very good reason…)

This all means you still HAVE TO AIM. However, despite these myths, the shotgun is an incredibly useful defensive tool, and if you have either the time or the opportunity, to grab one and use it, it is a better choice than a handgun. The power of the load, plus the effects of multiple impacting pellets makes the shotgun extremely effective as compared to most handgun loads. Also, the three point hold a long-arm gives you (two hands + shoulder stock) in addition to the longer barrel gives you a longer sight radius, which on average will make any person more accurate, and more likely to hit their target. (Try quickly AND accurately aiming at things in your house using a stubby pen, then try it two-handed with a yardstick, you'll understand the difference immediately.)

It is a hotly debated topic, but there is also the general theory that while multiple smaller shotgun pellets working in concert are very powerful, individually they are slower and weaker than most handgun or rifle rounds, and less likely to penetrate multiple walls of your house, or worse, your neighbors homes and endangering your family or bystanders.

There are some obvious downsides to the shotgun, it is larger than a handgun, and more difficult to store safely, but still have quick access. (however, products do exist to aid with this, things like the between the seats locking shotgun clamp in police cars are available to homeowners), it can get caught up in tight corners, doorways or hallways, making it difficult to aim or get into action. Also, the longer barrel makes it easier for a close-in assailant to deflect or wrestle away the gun. That being said, I believe the benefits of the power the 12 gauge affords, and the hitability of a long barrel and a stock makes it even out with a handgun.

Whatever you decide, the best general advice is to practice, and look for friends, ranges, stores, classes, or shooting clubs that can help you try different firearms, learn gun handling and safety, and practice, practice, practice.

Here's a few forums you might want to check out:

www.thefiringline.com
www.thehighroad.org
www.glocktalk.com

Some other excellent resources:

www.packing.org
www.nra.org
www.gunownersca.com
www.calguns.net
 

Wutda

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May 22, 2005
Messages
99
Welcome SoCal80,

Personally I have a HK USP9 compact and USP45. As for long guns, I have a Robar SR60 and a Mossberg 590. I'm very happy with the HKs.

I don't get to shoot the rifle or shotgun too often as there are very few rifle ranges in So Cali. I'd have to drive at least 70 miles and make it a day's event to do so.

I used to own an Armalite AR-10 and a HK SP89 but have since gotten rid of them due to the CA Assault weapons ban.

If you haven't done so already check out the CA DoJ website. They have a list of handguns that can be legally purchased in the state.

Good luck with your purchase. Stay safe.
 

nerdgineer

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Southern California
OK. So I'm just having fun now since the serious stuff has been covered already. One thing to look at is what's on sale. If you can go find a FFL holder who'll do mail order for you (not hard in LA), then you can get something from the CDNN catalog which has about the best prices I know of. It can be downloaded here:

http://www.cdnninvestments.com/dowournewcat.html

Personally, I'd go for one of the guns on page 7: HKUSP .45 ACP for $672 or the CZTT45P for $289, depending on my finances and the FFL guy's fees. These are new guns.

Tons of others as you'll see.
 

Frangible

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Jun 19, 2003
Messages
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As I generally said in the other thread... if you're not going to be carrying it, get a pump action shotgun with an 18" barrel (Winchester 1300, Mossberg 500, Remington 835, etc etc), you shouldn't have to pay more than $250. They are a lot easier to use and train with than a handgun and are terrifically lethal. A shotgun is simply a better weapon than a handgun. The advantage to handguns is they are compact. Get some 00 or #1 buckshot.

If you have small halls, get a shotgun with a pistol grip. Otherwise, go for the full stock.

I'm not trying to be anti-handgun here, I love handguns, but if you don't need the size of a handgun, don't make the sacrifices for it that size requires.
 

Outrider

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Mar 3, 2005
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Hi and Welcome to CPF!
I have one suggeston for you. Before you buy anything, go to Amazon.com and buy
Bostons Gun Bible. You will not be sorry and will keep this book on your reference shelf.

Outrider
 

SoCal80

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Sep 9, 2005
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Location
Pasadena, CA
Thanks everyone for the great replies. Lots of great info. So much reading to be done. I am very well aware of making SAFETY my number one thing before anything. Had work all week and will finally get out tomorrow to the range hopefully to shoot a variety of guns.

I am looking for a gun that I could use for home security, at the range for target shooting, and for protection when I am outdoors camping and wheeling. I do not intend to carry conceal. The way my work schedule is I have work pretty much throughout the whole week and every other saturday if Im lucky. So I plan to go out to the range to shoot a few rounds through couple different guns to I find the one I am most comfortable with and feel I could handle.

I understand that it takes lots and lots of practice and could get costly. But hoping that all the time and money invested will pay off in the future if and when I would need to use the skills I develope.

Thanks again everyone for your responses. I will keep everyone posted on what happens. Hopefully, I can get a feel for few of the hand guns at the range. Going to buy some ammo before going and see about asking some of the locals if I could try their guns using my ammo.

Thanks again.

Steve
 

SoCal80

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So went out shooting and ended up feeling most comfortable w/ the HK40 & HK 9mm. I liked how I felt like I had more of a handle on those guns than the other guns that I had test shot. So now I am looking to buy.

I went and looked at a few HK's and found a few that I wanted to buy. However, I wanted to find out if any of you could tell me if it is a good deal. The first gun is the HK40 Compact in stainless steel finsih which dealer quoted me $850 out the door. The other was same gun but in 9mm for $800 out the door. Would you guys say that is a good price for those particular guns? I don't really have a preference on stainless or the standard black finsih. If you guys have any recommendations on a good place to go in So.Cal that would be great.

Thanks
Steve
 

AJ_Dual

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USP for $800-850?

$800? For a USP compact?

Yeah, the stainless goes for a bit more, but...

Holy…..

That might be fair for Kal-EE-ForNEEah, because of the tough anti-gun environment and a bad small business climate in general, that may be what everybody is selling them for, but I'd shop around first. Wow… I thought Wisconsin had bad retail gun markups.

Here's a way you might go about it, if your gun shop choices are limited.

Ask the dealer what his "FFL transfer fee" is. This is when you buy the gun from somebody else, either a mail/internet wholesaler from out of state, or a "private sale" in California, and to be legal, it's shipped to his store, and he does the paperwork & background check. . Make a note of that, for argument, say it's $50. There might be an additional California pistol background check fee to the state as well...

Most carriers such as FedEx or UPS, when you ship a handgun, require it go next-day-air, because the tracking is better, and it keeps them in their hands as little as possible to deter theft by their employees. That might be $25 on the high side, depending on weight and insurance.

Now, go find the same model of HK USP in a wholesale catalog, like CDNN, or Davidsons. Or in a Shotgun News mail-order dealer ad. You can find "Shotgun News" or "Gun List" at a well stocked news/magazine rack in a bookstore.

Take that almost certainly lower price on your HK, add the $50+25 that shipping and an FFL transfer will cost you on top of wholesale. This is the price you want to offer the gun store.

Politely talk to the gun shop owner, manager, clerk, whatever, and lay this out for them. Be logical, don't act insulted by their initial price.
and imply you understand that they've got one price for the rubes, posers, and wanna-be's, and another for the real gun-nuts, "those in the know".

Tell them:

"I know that this HK USP goes for about $XXX wholesale in places like CDNN or Shotgun News. Your wholesale cost might even be a bit better than that because of the distributor you work with. You said your FFL transfer is "$50" (insert his fee here), I'd probably pay an extra $25 in overnight air pistol shipping on top of that order. Can you sell me the HK for $XXX+75, Not including tax and CA gun fees?"

Then politely point out that if they balk, you'll just go to an FFL who will work with you to order that HK USP from that wholesale place.

The process there is you order the gun directly from the wholesaler in the ad, pay them and shipping over the phone with a credit-card. You tell them the local FFL dealer you want it sent to. If he's on their file, they'll just send it right away. If not, the FFL dealer doing the transfer has to send them a copy of his license for their files before they send him your gun.

There may be "kitchen table" FFL's in your area (there's fewer these days, ATF and anti-gun states try to run them out of business even though it's legal, but they're still out there...) that do not have shops and who live off doing transfers. Shotgun News' website: http://www.shotgunnews.com/ has an "FFL finder" screen you can run by zip code. If you find some dealers in your area you didn't know about, call them up and ask if they do transfers, and what their fees are. Also ask if they're on file with the mail-order place you want to get the USP from. Most are happy to as it's a big part of their business as compared to the store FFL's.

I'm hoping for your sake, that the $XXX=75 figure you come up with is more like $650 for "out the door". Also, generously point out to the store that you're happy to buy some accessories from him you'll need anyway with the $250 or so in savings over his list price. Things like a holster (for open carry where legal), an extra magazine, some premium defensive ammunition, or a cleaning kit. Maybe all, if you like what he's got. If he's smart, he'll jump at the deal because like many kinds of retail, they make their margin on the accessories anyway.

This negotiation tactic, I call it "Wholesale Plus", has worked for me in the past on things like cheap AK's which were $299 wholesale, but my local store has on the wall for an obnoxious $550. I politely broke it down for them in the exact same way. Wholesale+FFL-fee+shipping, and they sold me the AK for $355. Just make sure you're calm, clean-cut, and have some passing knowledge of the gun business and current prices. If you do, and you don't act like some wanna-be with gunlust in his eyes, you'll usually save some money.
 
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SoCal80

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Re: USP for $800-850?

Aj,
Thanks for that great reply. I will look online and shop around and see what comes up. Then I will talk to local gun shop owner and see what happens. Thanks again and I will report back on what happens. Thanks

Steve
 

Wutda

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May 22, 2005
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SoCal80,

AJ makes an excellent point about going through a FFL holder to make your purchase. About 3 years ago, I bought my USP45F here in CA through a FFL holder and saved over $100 vs buying it at a retail shop. In other words, my out-the-door price was $100 cheaper than the list price of one retail dealer.

$800 for a USP9C?? Wow, prices have really gone up. I bought mine back in '97 for about $460 + tax/fees (and that was from a retail shop!!).

If you really like the HK's, check out the boards at www.hkpro.com. You may even be able to ask if there are some FFL holders in your area that other people have used. You may even find someone who is selling something you'd be interested in.
 

racerx2oo3

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Aug 1, 2005
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Re: USP for $800-850?

Another thing...don't be afraid of the "Used" rack. Gun owners love to trade up to new and different things. Both of the guns I own, a 9mm CZ-75 Compact and my Franchi 612 12-Gauge Shotgun where both purchased used, and both are excellent guns in terms of quality and performance.

I saved a great deal on each purchase by going with a used gun. In both cases each gun had only be fired a few times. The CZ-75 had seen so little use that the magazine had no wear at all. The Franchi had never been fired, it was won by the former owner in a Raffle and sold unfired.

Buying used requires a degree of flexibility. I had been looking for a CZ-75, but probably would not have picked a compact unless a deal like this had presented itself. I had been looking for a Beretta shotgun when I bought the Franchi, however, since the Franchi uses the except same rotary bolt system as the Beretta, I ended up with a firearm that will stand toe to toe with a Beretta, a a much more reasonable price.

Know that buying in California is going to cost you more than buying in Texas or Nevada would. California is an expensive place to do business and gun store even more so. This state would love to make it as difficult as possible for Gunstores to exist. As such they already get by on razor thin margins. Buying online will get you the best price, but it will not help support your local gunstores which are already having a difficult time due to state of active hostility against them in this state.

Racer X
 

AJ_Dual

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Re: USP for $800-850?

Both excelent points. Do not be afraid of buying a USED gun, only fear buying an ABUSED gun. :)

There is a big difference. The majority of firearms in this country sit lots and are shot little.

Also, I can imagine why running a gun shop in CA could be a very difficult exercise indeed. On that pistol's margin, the shop owner has to pay his income taxes, both personal and business, his employees payroll and FICA tax, his property tax, inventory tax, lease/mortgage, electric bill, property and liability insurance (enormous I'm sure), and the $240 markup on those HK's over the wholesale prices dosen't seem so unreasonable.

That's why I suggest the bargaining strategy above, but then spending the savings on ammo and accessories with that same dealer where his real bread-n-butter margin is anyway, since it sounded like SoCal80 could afford to spend the $800.

racerx2oo3 said:
Another thing...don't be afraid of the "Used" rack. Gun owners love to trade up to new and different things. Both of the guns I own, a 9mm CZ-75 Compact and my Franchi 612 12-Gauge Shotgun where both purchased used, and both are excellent guns in terms of quality and performance.
(snip)
Know that buying in California is going to cost you more than buying in Texas or Nevada would. California is an expensive place to do business and gun store even more so. This state would love to make it as difficult as possible for Gunstores to exist. As such they already get by on razor thin margins. Buying online will get you the best price, but it will not help support your local gunstores which are already having a difficult time due to state of active hostility against them in this state.
Racer X
 

SoCal80

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Pasadena, CA
Re: USP for $800-850?

Thanks for the USED suggestion. I am considering that option. Going out tomorrow to a few local shops to see what they have available in used section. The guy at the gun shop I went to the other day said he had a Mini 14 on consignment that has only had 10-20 shots put through it. It looked brand new so hopefully can find something like that in HK. There is just so much information but I am very thankful for all of your opinions and advice. Thanks again.
 
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