Surefire Saint headlamp? (Part 1)
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greenLED
Flashaholic
nzbazza
Enlightened
Re: Surefire Saint headlamp?
These are my initial thoughts about the "Saint" HL from looking at the scan:
These are my initial thoughts about the "Saint" HL from looking at the scan:
- It isn't pretty!!!
- It's going to be CR123 powered. I'm picking 2 cells.
- I don't see any reflector or optic on the front, and the two knobs on either side of the front unit are cut back on an angle - this is going to be a flood headlamp ala Zebralight H30 I reckon.
- It surprises me that Surefire haven't published this headlamp in their catalogue and it will be available soonish (end of Aug) while the UA2 and UB2 are in the catalogue but who knows when they will be ready.
- The blurb suggests there will be "a line" of surefire headlamps
- I wonder about how many levels/switching mechanisms.
LED-holic
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: Surefire Saint headlamp?
wow, are we looking at the same light? :sick2:
wow, are we looking at the same light? :sick2:
would really love to make this my first SureFire... not so sure after the ad now.
Re: Surefire Saint headlamp?
No doubt! If those idiots at SureFire had half a brain they would check with Hong Kong on what should really be in their lights and then design them to easily accept the aftermarket drop in instead of some integrated design. That or SureFire should just toss in the towel and not even bother...
Sheesh!! A SureFire headlamp sounded interesting to me until this post set me straight! :thumbsup:
No doubt! If those idiots at SureFire had half a brain they would check with Hong Kong on what should really be in their lights and then design them to easily accept the aftermarket drop in instead of some integrated design. That or SureFire should just toss in the towel and not even bother...
Sheesh!! A SureFire headlamp sounded interesting to me until this post set me straight! :thumbsup:
Rzr800
Enlightened
Re: Surefire Saint headlamp?
Probably a great business decision on their part though, as:
#1...the parts will be negligible and inexpensive with the price remaining just as high as ever...
and #2 (but most importantly)...how easy will it be for both SF reps and the 'gotta have it' taxpayer funded employees that they call on to convince purchasing agents that a $150 or higher 'hands free' light is somehow (now) the greatest thing since sliced bread...and only bulletproof 'reliable' with the SF logo attached? (hey, you could bang your head against a rock just as likely as with your handheld).
The specs. of this light will indeed tell the story as to how serious this company is about bringing truly the latest and the greatest to those with lots of discretionary income (mainly ours) as a headlamp truly does narrow down the argument in terms of what is practical and what is not (as mcgizmo mentioned...either do the job right or don't even bother... as 'somebody' is out there footing the bill for the supposedly the finest to be had).
Probably a great business decision on their part though, as:
#1...the parts will be negligible and inexpensive with the price remaining just as high as ever...
and #2 (but most importantly)...how easy will it be for both SF reps and the 'gotta have it' taxpayer funded employees that they call on to convince purchasing agents that a $150 or higher 'hands free' light is somehow (now) the greatest thing since sliced bread...and only bulletproof 'reliable' with the SF logo attached? (hey, you could bang your head against a rock just as likely as with your handheld).
The specs. of this light will indeed tell the story as to how serious this company is about bringing truly the latest and the greatest to those with lots of discretionary income (mainly ours) as a headlamp truly does narrow down the argument in terms of what is practical and what is not (as mcgizmo mentioned...either do the job right or don't even bother... as 'somebody' is out there footing the bill for the supposedly the finest to be had).
Re: Surefire Saint headlamp?
Just look at what Surefire has been doing with LEDs, a company like them can't and wont suceed if they concentrate on fighting lumens wars with other companies (since a cheapie DXP7 blows the surefire LEDs out of the water). In addition, the consumerbase is growing less and less interested in lumen figures unless they're rediculously high and more and more interested runtimes, UI, and usefulness.
Just look at what Surefire has been doing with LEDs, a company like them can't and wont suceed if they concentrate on fighting lumens wars with other companies (since a cheapie DXP7 blows the surefire LEDs out of the water). In addition, the consumerbase is growing less and less interested in lumen figures unless they're rediculously high and more and more interested runtimes, UI, and usefulness.
Re: Surefire Saint headlamp?
What do we have so far to evaluate? A picture of the headlamp that doesn't show much detail and certainly doesn't represent what the headlamp does when on and in use and we have the spec of 100 lumens of output.
Not much to go on at all but with this tiny bit of info and our personal biases in regards to SureFire we can make our cases and speculate like experts.
:welcome:
I don't use headlamps much but I have logged a number of days wearing them in attics and under houses doing some low voltage installations of LED wiring and fixtures and some plumbing repairs. The different headlamps all worked quite well for me and none of them came close to 100 lumens of output and the majority of the time I didn't use them on high.
Although I have never made a headlamp myself, I have spent a lot of time thinking about them and do hope to make something at least for myself when and if I get my ducks in a row. From a design standpoint, one of the first concerns I see is that of thermal relief. A headlamp presumably is a light that will be on for significant periods and it is a light that you want small and light weight and its ability to bleed off heat is restricted to convection and radiation unless you want to grease up your forehead and sync out the heat there (no thanks!! :green
I know nothing about this SF headlamp but considering the thermal situation and making guesses based on the picture, It wouldn't surprise me if the LED wasn't a P7 being driven an low and relative cool levels of power to get you the 100 lumens.
My first post was insincere and frankly BS based on BS. This post may be BS to many of you as well but it is at least sincere and I for one won't draw any conclusions on this headlamp without a lot more information and I wouldn't feel qualified to make any strong determination without actually experiencing the device in use, myself.
What do we have so far to evaluate? A picture of the headlamp that doesn't show much detail and certainly doesn't represent what the headlamp does when on and in use and we have the spec of 100 lumens of output.
Not much to go on at all but with this tiny bit of info and our personal biases in regards to SureFire we can make our cases and speculate like experts.
:welcome:I don't use headlamps much but I have logged a number of days wearing them in attics and under houses doing some low voltage installations of LED wiring and fixtures and some plumbing repairs. The different headlamps all worked quite well for me and none of them came close to 100 lumens of output and the majority of the time I didn't use them on high.
Although I have never made a headlamp myself, I have spent a lot of time thinking about them and do hope to make something at least for myself when and if I get my ducks in a row. From a design standpoint, one of the first concerns I see is that of thermal relief. A headlamp presumably is a light that will be on for significant periods and it is a light that you want small and light weight and its ability to bleed off heat is restricted to convection and radiation unless you want to grease up your forehead and sync out the heat there (no thanks!! :green
I know nothing about this SF headlamp but considering the thermal situation and making guesses based on the picture, It wouldn't surprise me if the LED wasn't a P7 being driven an low and relative cool levels of power to get you the 100 lumens.
My first post was insincere and frankly BS based on BS. This post may be BS to many of you as well but it is at least sincere and I for one won't draw any conclusions on this headlamp without a lot more information and I wouldn't feel qualified to make any strong determination without actually experiencing the device in use, myself.
Re: Surefire Saint headlamp?
Interesting.
I can't tell much from the picture. The front is weird..
I might be interested, I hope it has ~3 output levels (low, medium for most work, high if you really need the output). I would prefer something like the Tikka XP - it has decent throw + a diffuser.
I don't change batteries in my headlamp that often (I don't go hiking every day unfortunately) so running the SF headlamp on primary CR123A shouldn't be an issue for me. I am running my Tikka XP on three alkalines - they last me a very long time.
Something lightweight but rugged, long running and reliable that's what I am looking for...
I can't wait for more info.
Interesting.
I can't tell much from the picture. The front is weird..
I might be interested, I hope it has ~3 output levels (low, medium for most work, high if you really need the output). I would prefer something like the Tikka XP - it has decent throw + a diffuser.
I don't change batteries in my headlamp that often (I don't go hiking every day unfortunately
) so running the SF headlamp on primary CR123A shouldn't be an issue for me. I am running my Tikka XP on three alkalines - they last me a very long time.Something lightweight but rugged, long running and reliable that's what I am looking for...
I can't wait for more info.
Re: Surefire Saint headlamp?
well it is in a kind of utilitarian sort of way. too each his own
well it is in a kind of utilitarian sort of way. too each his own
Yucca Patrol
Enlightened
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Re: Surefire Saint headlamp?
It would surprise the hell out of me if Surefire used a state-of-the-art emitter like the P7. They always seem to use cheaper and much older technology and call it "tried and true", and that is why we have to look to Hong Kong to upgrade our Surefire lights with the newest and brightest drop-ins.
It would surprise the hell out of me if Surefire used a state-of-the-art emitter like the P7. They always seem to use cheaper and much older technology and call it "tried and true", and that is why we have to look to Hong Kong to upgrade our Surefire lights with the newest and brightest drop-ins.
Illum
Flashaholic
Re: Surefire Saint headlamp?
Whats your application? 200 lumens on high will wipe out everything down range, if theres a 200 lumen high I sure as @#$% hope theres a 10 lumen low somewhere in there:thinking:
I hope surefire makes a regulator that yields relatively equivalent performance compared to this
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/nuwai_hlx-712l.htm
5 hours of dead flat regulation followed by a MOON MODE of some sort
Petzl threw out an "ultra"...that sounds more interesting to me actually.
Whats your application? 200 lumens on high will wipe out everything down range, if theres a 200 lumen high I sure as @#$% hope theres a 10 lumen low somewhere in there:thinking:
I hope surefire makes a regulator that yields relatively equivalent performance compared to this
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/nuwai_hlx-712l.htm
5 hours of dead flat regulation followed by a MOON MODE of some sort
Petzl threw out an "ultra"...that sounds more interesting to me actually.
Re: Surefire Saint headlamp?
You do realize that the P7 came into existence because of SureFire and at their request for such a LED to Seoul?!? In many examples, I have seen a SF prototype that didn't make it into production and available to consumers until well over a year of lapsed time. With lead times like this, how would you expect SureFire to have the latest and greatest a week after introduction? Your expression of "tried and true" has an element of time associated with it. This lapse of time may not sit well with many and I know I have found it quite frustrating myself on numerous occasions.
We have new LED's and new bin's coming out like clockwork these days. If a flashlight is named after a particular LED and even with the bin distinction included in its name, what would the expected life cycle in the market for such a light be? A couple months? Like it or not, some manufacturers work on a "tried and true" platform and expect a light design to be viable for years possibly. I can buy time dated food at the grocery store that has a longer shelf life than some of these quick to market and quick to be obsolete import flashlights!
In a market beyond CPF and what's new today, what is the significance of a XR-E R2 designation for instance?
Your whole complaint is really based on time to market and time intended for marketability. SF may pay premium today for premium LED's which are old news by the time they show up in production lights.
If you can see fit to accept this for the reality that it is, you might not need to weigh down a thread bringing to attention a new product from SureFire with bull poop that is not specific to the new product but a function of your disdain for how SureFire does business and conducts R&D in general.
Your wonder "drop ins" is a small portion of the market and relates to incandescent based lights which now can be host to LED modules. Where are the Hong Kong latest and greatest drop ins for the old technology SureFire U2, E1L, L1 and on and on?
I will wager that Hong Kong doesn't come up with any drop in for the headlamp that is topic of discussion in this thread. I say this because I doubt SF has designed the headlamp with ease of replacement of the LED as a design goal. I could be wrong but I doubt it.
IMHO, a childish, impatient, unrealistic and ignorant attitude permeates some of the posts and comments in this thread and others when SF is the topic. The market has room for "tried and true" as well as hot off the line latest and potentially greatest. That the market is served by different manufacturers which may not in themselves embrace both, comes as no surprise to me.
You express upset at SF for being so slow and out of date. Are you also as upset at Hong Kong for not supplying these wonder drop ins with a host of the quality that you seem to look to SF for? The price would likely be better and then you could just ignore SF completely.
You do realize that the P7 came into existence because of SureFire and at their request for such a LED to Seoul?!? In many examples, I have seen a SF prototype that didn't make it into production and available to consumers until well over a year of lapsed time. With lead times like this, how would you expect SureFire to have the latest and greatest a week after introduction? Your expression of "tried and true" has an element of time associated with it. This lapse of time may not sit well with many and I know I have found it quite frustrating myself on numerous occasions.
We have new LED's and new bin's coming out like clockwork these days. If a flashlight is named after a particular LED and even with the bin distinction included in its name, what would the expected life cycle in the market for such a light be? A couple months? Like it or not, some manufacturers work on a "tried and true" platform and expect a light design to be viable for years possibly. I can buy time dated food at the grocery store that has a longer shelf life than some of these quick to market and quick to be obsolete import flashlights!
In a market beyond CPF and what's new today, what is the significance of a XR-E R2 designation for instance?
Your whole complaint is really based on time to market and time intended for marketability. SF may pay premium today for premium LED's which are old news by the time they show up in production lights.
If you can see fit to accept this for the reality that it is, you might not need to weigh down a thread bringing to attention a new product from SureFire with bull poop that is not specific to the new product but a function of your disdain for how SureFire does business and conducts R&D in general.
Your wonder "drop ins" is a small portion of the market and relates to incandescent based lights which now can be host to LED modules. Where are the Hong Kong latest and greatest drop ins for the old technology SureFire U2, E1L, L1 and on and on?
I will wager that Hong Kong doesn't come up with any drop in for the headlamp that is topic of discussion in this thread. I say this because I doubt SF has designed the headlamp with ease of replacement of the LED as a design goal. I could be wrong but I doubt it.
IMHO, a childish, impatient, unrealistic and ignorant attitude permeates some of the posts and comments in this thread and others when SF is the topic. The market has room for "tried and true" as well as hot off the line latest and potentially greatest. That the market is served by different manufacturers which may not in themselves embrace both, comes as no surprise to me.
You express upset at SF for being so slow and out of date. Are you also as upset at Hong Kong for not supplying these wonder drop ins with a host of the quality that you seem to look to SF for? The price would likely be better and then you could just ignore SF completely.
SilentK
Enlightened
Re: Surefire Saint headlamp?
for those who are compaining about the lumen output, if you read the article hard enough it indicates that there will be a series af headlamps. so everyone here is taking thatg one lumen rating and saying that "oh it is so weak" i would bet that if it is true and there is a series, that there will be another one with a much higher output. in my opinion, they need to just make a headlamp that takes the p60 lamp.:twothumbs so they can include the p60L and let us take care of the rest. also include regulation that goes by volts. {6.0, 5.0, 3.0, 1.5, .5.} or something like that. it might not work but hey One more thing. i dont thing i have EVER seen a mass produced headlamp that has 100 lumen out of the front.
for those who are compaining about the lumen output, if you read the article hard enough it indicates that there will be a series af headlamps. so everyone here is taking thatg one lumen rating and saying that "oh it is so weak" i would bet that if it is true and there is a series, that there will be another one with a much higher output. in my opinion, they need to just make a headlamp that takes the p60 lamp.:twothumbs so they can include the p60L and let us take care of the rest. also include regulation that goes by volts. {6.0, 5.0, 3.0, 1.5, .5.} or something like that. it might not work but hey
One more thing. i dont thing i have EVER seen a mass produced headlamp that has 100 lumen out of the front.Re: Surefire Saint headlamp?
The River Rock 6v (136 lumen rated at the bulb) may be close if not over 100 lumens out the front. I compared it against the FENIX L2D CE and the ceiling bounce test looks equal to my eye.
We need someone with a lux/lumen meter to verify though.
The River Rock 6v (136 lumen rated at the bulb) may be close if not over 100 lumens out the front. I compared it against the FENIX L2D CE and the ceiling bounce test looks equal to my eye.
We need someone with a lux/lumen meter to verify though.
photonhoer
Newly Enlightened
Re: Surefire Saint headlamp?
Thanks, Mac. I appreciate that someone with your respect and authority in the community has come out saying this. I felt it, about this specific SF post but also about many others, but honestly I shrank from saying it myself because I was sure I would have been drowned if I had said it.
The shear bandwidth consumed by speculation without data/experience is very disappointing. The S/N ratio suffers substantially. Can't we clean it up ourselves? It would greatly improve the quality of this excellent Forum.
Thanks, Mac. I appreciate that someone with your respect and authority in the community has come out saying this. I felt it, about this specific SF post but also about many others, but honestly I shrank from saying it myself because I was sure I would have been drowned if I had said it.
The shear bandwidth consumed by speculation without data/experience is very disappointing. The S/N ratio suffers substantially. Can't we clean it up ourselves? It would greatly improve the quality of this excellent Forum.
Yucca Patrol
Enlightened
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2008
- Messages
- 954
Re: Surefire Saint headlamp?
Sorry to set you off, McGizmo. . . .
When it comes to headlamps, my needs are probably a bit more extreme than average because I use them for vertical caving. I often need a very bright light for many many hours underground and need to be prepared for an unexpected extended stay underground if something were to go wrong. An incredibly bright headlamp helps me to see the bottom of a 300+ foot pit while I am rappelling down the rope.
Being able to use rechargeable AA batteries that can be used in multiple lights/devices is also very desirable for my purposes, and rechargeable CR-123's don't have the capacity or reliability I need for long run-times underground.
Like my other Surefire lights, I know this new headlamp will hold up to the very worst I can throw at it, and I will almost certainly buy this light when it comes out, but it still falls short in lumen output and battery type when I imagine my ideal headlamp.
Maybe I am childish, impatient, unrealistic, and ignorant, but I know what works for me underground in the caves. At this point in time, my ideal headlamp does not exist, so I make do with a modified PT Apex and a couple Fenix L2D's mounted to my helmet with bored out mini-Mag-lite helmet mounts (not all of them on at the same time most of the time). With this set-up, I achieve the light output I need, can use rechargeable AA's, and don't have to buy $20 worth of disposable lithium batteries every time I go underground.
You will be happy to know that I do keep a SF 6P LED in the bottom of my emergency kit. If all my plastic headlamps and cheap Chinese junk fail me, I'll die underground with a SF firmly clutched in my cold dead hand.
Sorry to set you off, McGizmo. . . .
When it comes to headlamps, my needs are probably a bit more extreme than average because I use them for vertical caving. I often need a very bright light for many many hours underground and need to be prepared for an unexpected extended stay underground if something were to go wrong. An incredibly bright headlamp helps me to see the bottom of a 300+ foot pit while I am rappelling down the rope.
Being able to use rechargeable AA batteries that can be used in multiple lights/devices is also very desirable for my purposes, and rechargeable CR-123's don't have the capacity or reliability I need for long run-times underground.
Like my other Surefire lights, I know this new headlamp will hold up to the very worst I can throw at it, and I will almost certainly buy this light when it comes out, but it still falls short in lumen output and battery type when I imagine my ideal headlamp.
Maybe I am childish, impatient, unrealistic, and ignorant, but I know what works for me underground in the caves. At this point in time, my ideal headlamp does not exist, so I make do with a modified PT Apex and a couple Fenix L2D's mounted to my helmet with bored out mini-Mag-lite helmet mounts (not all of them on at the same time most of the time). With this set-up, I achieve the light output I need, can use rechargeable AA's, and don't have to buy $20 worth of disposable lithium batteries every time I go underground.
You will be happy to know that I do keep a SF 6P LED in the bottom of my emergency kit. If all my plastic headlamps and cheap Chinese junk fail me, I'll die underground with a SF firmly clutched in my cold dead hand.
Re: Surefire Saint headlamp?
Yucca Patrol,
Your posts did set me off and perhaps it would have been best had I been silent but if they were what brought out your most recent post then I am glad I made them. You obviously have a need for something that isn't available at present and I can understand your frustration that results. Your most recent post is very constructive in nature and if SureFire were by chance reading this thread, they might glean some valuable customer or potential customer feedback from reading it. What could they glean from your earlier posts?
I know I am guilty of too many words in my posts but it takes some effort to try to get an idea or set of ideas across and I am not gifted with the ability to get the message across in a few choice words. On the other hand, many feel they have communicated the "essence" in one or two lines and I submit they have not.
Thank you for your response.
Yucca Patrol,
Your posts did set me off and perhaps it would have been best had I been silent but if they were what brought out your most recent post then I am glad I made them. You obviously have a need for something that isn't available at present and I can understand your frustration that results. Your most recent post is very constructive in nature and if SureFire were by chance reading this thread, they might glean some valuable customer or potential customer feedback from reading it. What could they glean from your earlier posts?
I know I am guilty of too many words in my posts but it takes some effort to try to get an idea or set of ideas across and I am not gifted with the ability to get the message across in a few choice words. On the other hand, many feel they have communicated the "essence" in one or two lines and I submit they have not.
Thank you for your response.
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