Was I expecting too much?

[Druthu]

Good read...
I hope I don't have buyers remorse. I intend to purchase a new light after my AAA died.
I look at the 4Sevens lights and I really like that you can exchange parts between them. Buying one light and then a spare body for the same battery size 2xAA, 1xAA. I think that is pretty cool. I am also wrestling with trying to judge an item over the net and hpe it will be what I want once I get it in my hands.

 

[Serial Chiller]

Hello! Owning our next-gen lights require meticulous attention too, they need to be cleaned and greased (o-rings) from time to time to ensure proper operation.

It was about a month old and there was definitely a problem with the switch (checked it with a multimeter). However, today I got an email that a new switch is already on its way. So custumer support is great.

 

[fyrstormer]

There are people here who swear by 4Sevens, but I've never been impressed with their products. I outgrew Fenix pretty quickly when I discovered there were better lights on the market (I still remember comparing my new Arc6 to my Fenix P1D and thinking "I wish I'd skipped the P1D"), and 4Sevens seems to be on-par with Fenix -- on-average, that is. Certain aspects of Fenix lights seem to be better-built, like the switches and the screw threads for example. Nonetheless, 4Sevens products seem to have more of an aura surrounding them, at least on CPF. That's probably because 4Sevens paid close attention to CPF's feedback for a couple years while they were getting their business started, but now I see their products appearing in catalogs and general-market online stores more and more often. I don't think they're as concerned with what CPF thinks as they used to be, and frankly, most of the general population is going to be amazed when they get their hands on something even as fair-to-middling as a Quark.

If you want (what I consider) a really good light and you're willing to pay $100 for it, get a Jetbeam RRT-0. Infinite brightness control and it'll run on an RCR123, a CR123, a 14500, or an AA. They also have other lights with multi-click user interfaces, and some "base models" that have two modes selectable by tightening or loosening the head. Overall I think their products are at the top-quality for mass-produced lights.

 

[fyrstormer]

I own several 4sevens lights and my experience is similar. They have many really good ideas and on paper these lights are just awesome. I love my Preons or my Qmini CR2 (bought it three times, because I lost it twice), there are no comparable lights out there. Build quality, however, has always been a little bit disappointing. Last week I was examining a patient with a few other students. I was the one who paid the most for their penlight, yet I had to borrow one because mine did not work (Preon2 with a loose contact). The Qmini CR2 does not always make a solid impression either.

Funny you should mention it; those are the two 4Sevens lights I actually bought, because I couldn't find anything comparable on the market. After using my Preon for a few days, the switch popped loose inside of the metal housing, and I could never get it to fit properly again. The switch doesn't screw into place, it's just press-fit, and if it comes loose there's no way to hold it securely anymore. I even epoxied the switch in-place and it was still unreliable. My Preon is the only titanium light I ever just plain threw away.

The Qmini's twist switch never worked well either, often skipping modes or refusing to change modes at all, even on a brand-new battery. The contact surface for the twist-switch was thinner than the blunt side of my little Swiss Army knife blade; there's no way such a small contact area can survive years of regular use.

I'm usually the person who cautions others against jumping to conclusions based on initial experiences, but examining their lights as an engineer, certain deficiencies become obvious to me, and I can't explain them away as "I just got a bad one." Last time I waste my money on that brand.

 

[shane45_1911]

Last time I waste my money on that brand.

A bold statement, but one I fully agree with.

 

[red02]

So, went to going gear store (which was great experience by the way) and bought my first "good light"
Is a 4sevens quark x aa2.
Yep, is decently bright, but have some remorse. Was I expecting too much from a $65 light vs my previous cheaper lights?
Didn't expect it to scratch when I took off the clip. Nor the clip to bend so easy.
Didn't expect the batteries to rattle inside.

Sure it's bright, but just not sure it's worth it.
Did I buy the wrong brand, or am I expecting too much for that price range?

And I'm seriously asking opinions, not griping about it. I bought it, I scratched it, it's mine now.
:thanks:
JD

Does sound like your expectations were a little high. This is the most important point: You should return the light if you are not happy with it. It would be a waste of money if you didn't like and didn't use it as a result. Whats more, you'd waste more money and time trying to find another light more to your needs. That being said, all anodized lights are bound to get scratched, IIRC the Surefire LX2 has/had a problem where unscrewing the battery cap when the clip was installed produced scratches. As far as the battery rattle, it does happen with some lights. Even some surefires. Either way now you know what it is you want to look for in a light. That is the first step to finding a good fit for you.

 

[jdhermit]

Wow, lots of great responses! I do appreciate the breadth of experience on this forum.:rock:

Being that I've scratched it, bent the clip (my fault, didn't realize you're supposed to remove the ring all the way) AND have been using the crap out of it since Saturday, I would NOT feel right returning it.

Partly, I'm just comparing to the $40 Jetbeam my 12 year old son bought (almost same output), and his seems "sturdier".

I *do* realize $60 is not a ton to spend, but it just makes me leary of taking this up as a hobby and spending > $100 for these things. Guess that's the bottom line.

But again, I've used the crap out of it. There are things I'd change about the modes, etc., but the light out of it is incredible!

Just as an aside, I guess I buy sturdy things, that don't break...(YMMV, obviously)...car = Honda, carry a Gl*ck, tractor = John Deere, watch = Casio G Shock, etc. (I know, people can say they've had a problem with any of these brands, but I'm using for illustration).

So maybe Surefire next? I dunno, just felt like i did a lot of research and missed the boat on my first step...:sick2:

JD

 

[fyrstormer]

That being said, all anodized lights are bound to get scratched...

Not all anodizing is doomed to be scratched. My old natural-color Arc AAA-P had such durable anodizing I actually dropped it on concrete and then stepped on it while trying to pick it up and there was no damage. The underlying metal was dented, yes, but the anodizing was completely intact. I was disappointed to discover that not even arc makes their lights that durable anymore, to say nothing of most other brands. Real mil-spec anodizing is great stuff.

Either way now you know what it is you want to look for in a light. That is the first step to finding a good fit for you.

Bingo.

 

[RedForest UK]

My Preon is the only titanium light I ever just plain threw away.

4sevens offer relatively average lights at a slightly inflated price, but are trying to forge a brand name along the lines of latest technology and innovation etc as surefire pretty much has the durability but very high price market covered (I know there are other niche brands like HDS and Malkoff but they aren't anywhere near as well known).

However, while you are in general paying in my opinion around 30% more than you should far a quark (this is easy to work out from the Mini models, as they are OEM from the same factory and components as the iTP A series were, which retail around a third less) what you get with 4sevens is a 10 year warranty. This is arguably mainly what people pay surefire a massive amount of money for (although theirs is lifetime and I'm sure their lights are in general sturdier anyway).

However, you have to remember this point, if you treat 4sevens as a normal quality/efficiency to $ light they come out around 30% higher than they should, but if you factor in the fact that in 10 years of moderate to heavy use you are likely to need some sort of warranty help then you may well get your moneys worth. This is why I quoted the post above, throwing a Preon away seems pointless, as the extra cost of fixing it was part of what was paid for in the original purchase.

Of course, this reasoning means that for international customers, 4sevens is much worse value for money due to the shipping costs and added time of RMA added to the roughly 50% added on for retail here anyway. It also means 4sevens aren't ideal for those who won't use their lights at all as they probably won't need the warranty, and for people who won't bother with the warranty claim anyway if there is a problem. It also means that those of us likely to keep buying new lights as the technology advances and 'retiring' old ones also won't be getting as good a deal overall as the 10 year warranty isn't worth anything more than a 2 year one if the light is only used for 2 years.

The gist of this I guess is my advice to use the light as often as you can, put it through it's paces without worrying about breaking it (though obviously don't deliberately try to do so) and feel better about knowing that if it breaks even in 9 years time then you should get it fixed free of charge. That is why it cost you $60 and the Jetbeam was only $40, you've invested in the future

 

[Outdoorsman5]

Is 4sevens making top shelf quality lights ---- No. But they are making a solid mid-range quality light at a good price, and with a 10 year warranty. I think 4sevens is getting a lot of things right. They value several things that other companies do not value as much. 4sevens places a high value on keeping their lights small, compact, lightweight, powerful, and versatile. The quarks are smaller than most of their competitors and more lightweight. They place a lot of value on keeping up with technology (latest LED.) They also place a lot of value on their lights being versatile, and this subject is broad regarding the quarks:

They're lego-able with each other (tail, body, & head.) You can convert your Quark 2xAA into a single AA light, or a single CR123 light, or an 18650 light (this body no longer sold,) or a single 17670 light (using the 2x123 body.) You can even use one of the turbo heads in any of these configurations with the right battery. There are multiple tail switches to choose from and a deep carry pocket clip that you can get, plus other accessories. They're designed to use every type of battery chemistry (alkaline, lithium primary, NiMH, & Li-ion.) The circuitry can handle each of these batteries because they are using a buck/boost circuit in the quark line. They have two UI's to choose from. The quarks with the tactical UI are programmable. There are not many lights in this price range that are programmable. The output options are very versatile as well offering a really low low to a very bright max. The output options include - moonlight, low, medium, high, max, plus sos, strobe, and beacon.

With these features I can't think of a another brand out there that's doing all of these things with their lights in this price range. In fact, there aren't many higher priced/quality lights out there that are doing very many of these things. 4sevens has a pretty good niche with what they are doing which is why they are popular & well-liked by many around here. They could get upstaged by other companies, but at the moment they're doing a pretty good job & providing us with good lights at a price many of us are willing to pay.

 

[shane45_1911]

With these features I can't think of a another brand out there that's doing all of these things with their lights in this price range.

Which doesn't mean squat if they can't get the basics right.

I am not going to go into great detail for fear of people thinking I am being overtly negative, but my multiple experiences with pre-flash, swollen O-rings, defective UI, skipping modes, total failures from single 1-foot drops, sloppy/gritty threads, poor machining, poor anodizing, bad tints, etc. etc. etc. means no more money for 4Sevens from me. Ever.

 

[Outdoorsman5]

Which doesn't mean squat if they can't get the basics right.

I am not going to go into great detail for fear of people thinking I am being overtly negative, but my multiple experiences with pre-flash, swollen O-rings, defective UI, skipping modes, total failures from single 1-foot drops, sloppy/gritty threads, poor machining, poor anodizing, bad tints, etc. etc. etc. means no more money for 4Sevens from me. Ever.

I guess if I'd had all those problems with em then I'd be turned off too. Maybe I've just been lucky with the quarks I own & half dozen I've given away as gifts.

 

[hank]

They're lego-able with each other (tail, body, & head.) You can convert your Quark 2xAA into a single AA light, or a single CR123 light, or an 18650 light (this body no longer sold,) or a single 17670 light (using the 2x123 body.) You can even use one of the turbo heads in any of these configurations with the right battery. There are multiple tail switches ...

Best ad I've seen for their product. They should put it on their website.
(I own two neutral AA Minis and a warm Preon2, been quite happy with them; always sort of wondered what I wasn't getting about the Quark models -- and you've explained it!)

 

[shane45_1911]

I guess if I'd had all those problems with em then I'd be turned off too. Maybe I've just been lucky with the quarks I own & half dozen I've given away as gifts.

Don't get me wrong - all defects were offered to be repaired/replaced under warranty. I just got tired of the shipping/return hassles for my multiple issues which - I feel - should have been caught before the lights ever left the factory.

 

[cland72]

I toyed with the Fenix brand (which from what I can see is basically 4Sevens) and they were a letdown. Buy once, cry once. Unfortunately I bought several times and still cried when I bought my E2DL, which is by far my favorite light right now.

 

[Outdoorsman5]

Don't get me wrong - all defects were offered to be repaired/replaced under warranty. I just got tired of the shipping/return hassles for my multiple issues which - I feel - should have been caught before the lights ever left the factory.

I can relate, and definitely agree with you there.

 

[fyrstormer]

However, while you are in general paying in my opinion around 30% more than you should far a quark (this is easy to work out from the Mini models, as they are OEM from the same factory and components as the iTP A series were, which retail around a third less) what you get with 4sevens is a 10 year warranty. This is arguably mainly what people pay surefire a massive amount of money for (although theirs is lifetime and I'm sure their lights are in general sturdier anyway).

People buy Surefires because you can run them over with a Humvee and they still work, not because Surefire will replace it in exchange for a cool story.

The best warranty is one you never need to use. I mean no disrespect, but I've noticed that the attitude "durability is less important than periodic expert maintenance" is a much more prevalent attitude in Europe, where help is never far away. You need to understand, approximately half of the USA's landmass is so sparsely-populated that the nearest car shop is more than an hour's drive away, mail to the next town takes multiple days to arrive, and if you get trapped in an emergency you may well die before anyone notices you're missing. That is why Americans tend to have a much stronger preference for equipment that is extremely difficult to break, even if it's heavier, less efficient, burns more gasoline, etc.

If a tool breaks while you're in the middle of nowhere, you may not get the chance to mail it back to the factory for service -- and even if you do, you could end up waiting weeks for it to return. It is arguable that a flashlight is not such a critical item in all but the most severe circumstances, but once you get used to having tools that last for a decade before they need more than an oil change, it's very hard to tolerate anything that requires more attention -- even if the repairs are free.

...if you factor in the fact that in 10 years of moderate to heavy use you are likely to need some sort of warranty help then you may well get your moneys worth. This is why I quoted the post above, throwing a Preon away seems pointless, as the extra cost of fixing it was part of what was paid for in the original purchase.

Since the quoted post was mine, I'll offer the explanation that upon examining the light I decided it wasn't worth repairing. There is absolutely no way a press-fit switch can possibly be reliable over the long term. The light was defective by design.

I have a small multi-tool in my pocket -- a SeberTool M4 made by SeberTech USA. This is my second one. The first one I got 11 years ago. It served me extremely well the entire time, until one day the pliers broke from metal fatigue. After a decade of trouble-free use, I was thrilled it had lasted that long. I went online to buy a new one...and the company was gone. They sold the design to another company, and their version of the same product was a piece of crap. I searched eBay for a couple months before someone posted the original version of the tool, and I paid whatever price I needed to win the auction. (less than $100, but only slightly.)

The gist of this I guess is...feel better about knowing that if it breaks even in 9 years time then you should get it fixed free of charge. That is why it cost you $60 and the Jetbeam was only $40, you've invested in the future

It's a good thing I didn't need warranty service on my SeberTool M4, because the company was gone by the time the tool broke. 4Sevens may be gone in ten years, too, it's impossible to say for sure. Heck, they could be gone next year. So I say again, the best warranty is the one you never need to use. There is no substitute for durability.

 

[RedForest UK]

You make an interesting point. However there are places and activities which people do in Europe where a light really needs to not fail at all also, if you are going hiking and are a day/nights walk from the nearest town etc you really need a light that will be sure to work, the same to a greater extent if you're caving. I do not think it can be generalised so easily to US/EU differences. I do take your point that for many living in the US a failure of something even in day to day life can be a big problem though.

I also did realise my post sounded a little dismissing of surefire's reliability as a factor, which is why I added to bit about them 'being more reliable too'. Maybe I didn't emphasise that enough, but I do find it hard to buy into the brand superiority of surefire on a whole to the level it is by many others, although I accept in general they are more reliable and can take more rough treatment than the average light from another brand.

I think trust for a light can build through use and sometimes abuse of it and it surviving through that use. Perhaps this can be guaranteed out the box to a higher extent from top-quality brands, (and it is easier to attach such trust to a brand name than an individual light), but I have lights which I trust almost entirely (either through experience or because I made the parts that could conceivably break) which also have the latest technology/efficiency and did not cost more than $50 overall.

It is interesting to remember that in general the longer warranty a manufacturer offers, the greater confidence they have in their product. Of course if they have high profit margins this can skew their warranty policies etc but it could be argued both brands discussed here have relatively high profit margins and good marketing, which is why they are successful.

I was under the impression that light durability was not the main factor for buying this light for the OP and that while this will be a useful tool it is not critical to his survival. Maybe over time and use it will prove to be durable and last through the 10 years. What I'm trying to say is that he has 10 years in which (unless it is a situation where you really cannot risk losing the light at all) he won't have to worry about breaking the light or being overly careful with it, he can use it as much as he likes. If there is any issue, it will get fixed, and if there isn't all the better. The more it is used and does not show any issues the more he can come to trust it in the future.

 

[fyrstormer]

I have no special love for Surefire, I'm just addressing the point you made. I actually EDC a Jetbeam TC-R2 and a Muyshondt Aeon Ti as a backup. I own one Surefire, made of plastic, for use in situations where I don't want to be holding something that's thermally- and electrically-conductive. I've carried the Jetbeam TC-R2 for over a year now, and I haven't even had a single instance where the switch acted funny, to say nothing of refusing to work entirely. So yes, I agree that trust can build over time, and if your Quark works well, that's great. I have no doubt, however, that the average quality of a 4Sevens light is inferior to the average quality of a Jetbeam light. It's that average that matters before a purchase is made, because you have no idea whether you'll receive an above-average or below-average unit.

Warranties are tricky buggers. You might think that a long warranty suggests the manufacturer has confidence in their product, and sometimes it does mean that. However, a lot of the time, a long warranty is offered because it enhances the aura of the product and because the manufacturer is confident that the user won't want to bother with getting warranty service. Another thing you should know about the USA is that people here are much more tolerant of throwing away "cheap" things when they stop working. (yes, I'm sure there are people in Europe who are the same way, but it's certainly part of the culture here -- don't weigh yourself down with old things, just toss them and get new ones!)

Lots of manufacturers take that into consideration when selling products in the USA. All a manufacturer needs to do is require that warranty requests must include a copy of the purchase receipt, to prove date-of-purchase, and probably 75% of the potential warranty claims vanish. That goes a long way towards reducing the warranty cost of selling a product that would be terribly unprofitable if all in-warranty repairs were actually completed.

EDIT: The last part of your post suggests that you responded before I edited my previous post to include the story about my multi-tool. There is no guarantee the OP's warranty will be honored, because there's no guarantee the company will still exist at that time. I've been through that several times.

 

[RedForest UK]

Again, I agree with you, this time on basically everything you said. I have no particular love for any brand, though I'm partial to certain Fenix models as can be seen in my sigline and solarforce hosts are top quality when coupled with a well made drop-in (I like to custom make my own now). I actually only have one quark, which I picked up while on holiday in the USA summer 2010, a Mini AA neutral, it's been my keychain edc on 14500 since then and has had no issues. It is very worn down and has gathered dust inside the lense over time somehow, but is functionally as good as ever.

What you are saying about companies factoring in the % of people who won't RMA a product is another thing I was trying to get at in my first points to the OP. He paid more than he feels he maybe should have for the light, I'm sure there were other options, but he has it now so best to look at it in a good light. It has a 10 year warranty, so use it, don't hold back and if you do have an issue don't be one of the people who doesn't use the warranty, take advantage of it.

If you do that then you'll feel like you got your moneys worth in comparison to a light with no or shorter warranty of the same quality, as that is basically what your extra $ paid for. If it never breaks, even better, by the time you've built up trust of the light itself you'll not even think about other options at the time having seemed better as the trust will be unique to that light which has gone through what it has with you.

Either way, you feel much better than slightly regretting the purchase and letting that affect your subjective evaluation of the light and so not using it.