Water needs air to freeze?

binky

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Y'know, there are a bunch of great comments on some things that are going on when you see that soda slush up, and I'm having fun laughing at myself for having forgotten so much chem/thermo.

Here's another effect involved, from the dynamic rather than just static thermo perspective:
It's not just the lower pressure or the solution/dissolution that's going on. When you open the bottle you're letting out the gas. That lowers the enthalpy of the system (if you draw your border at the bottle) meaning the inside of the bottle gets colder because it's losing energy. The same effect is seen when you let CO2 out of one of those little cylinders and it gets so cold that it frosts up, just from letting the gas out.

That's soda. Doesn't have anything to do with cobb's initial water bottle question.
 

idleprocess

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One night on a backpacking trip it dipped under freezing - possibly down to ~20F. We had bought some inexpensive bottled water in 2L bottles for the trip.

The morning after the freeze, I was about to open one bottle when I noticed the water inside was kind of "hazy." It was kind of like lookingg through a perfectly uniform fog bank. The contents were still liquid, so I didn't give it much notice. When I opened the bottle, there was a loud hiss of escaping air and the entire thing flash-froze into a flawless block of ice.

The compressed air represented the energy from the phase change being released - it also allowed the liquid >> solid expansion to occur.
 

Brock

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Woops, since I am a diver I assume 5000' is 5000 feet down, not up, sorry for the confusion guys.

Bill I am also confused I thought sea water froze at 0F and thats where oF came from?
 

TRC

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[ QUOTE ]
Brock said:
Woops, since I am a diver I assume 5000' is 5000 feet down, not up, sorry for the confusion guys.

Bill I am also confused I thought sea water froze at 0F and thats where oF came from?

[/ QUOTE ]

Using the metric system, reasonably pure water at 1 atmosphere (sea level, 14.7 PSI.), freezes at 0 degress Celsius (or Centigrade); which is equivalent to 32 degrees Farenheit.

That's probably the 'zero degrees' you are thinking of.
 

BB

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And I flew light planes and assumed you were talking about Denver... who knew? I did wonder why sea water and Denver were together in the argument…

Anyway... Fahrenheit temperature scale

[ QUOTE ]
The Fahrenheit temperature scale became popular through its use on the first reliable, commercially-available, mercury-in-glass thermometers. Daniel Gabriel Fahrenheit manufactured such thermometers in Amsterdam from about 1717 until his death in 1736. The scale we know of as the Fahrenheit scale was the last of three scales he used.

As the zero point on his scale Fahrenheit chose the temperature of a bath of ice melting in a solution of common salt, a standard 18th century way of getting a low temperature in the laboratory (and in the kitchen, as in an old-fashioned ice cream churn). He set 32 degrees as the temperature of ice melting in water. For a consistent, reproducible high point he chose the temperature of the blood of a healthy person (his wife), which he measured in the armpit and called 96 degrees.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you can get brine down to -5F or so... Pretty close to 0F. From what I remembered, 0F had nothing to do with sea water but was an ice/brine solution.

I have also read this explanation before:

Fahrenheit scale, why is 32 freezing and 212 boiling?

[ QUOTE ]
Daniel Gabriel Fahrenheit (1686-1736) was a German instrument maker who invented the first practical mercury thermometer. Casting about for a suitable scale for his device, he visited the Danish astronomer Ole Romer, who had devised a system of his own.

As it turned out, it was a case of the blind leading the blind.

Romer had decided that the boiling point of water should be 60 degrees. This at least had the strength of numerological tradition behind it (60 minutes in an hour, right?).

But zero was totally arbitrary, the main consideration apparently being that it should be colder than it ever got in Denmark. (Romer didn't like using negative numbers in his weather logbook.)

In addition to the boiling point of water, the landmarks on Romer's scale were the freezing point of water, 7-1/2 degrees, and body temperature, 22-1/2 degrees.

D.G., simple soul that he was, thought this cockeyed system was the soul of elegance. He made one useful change: to get rid of the fractions, he multiplied Romer's degrees by 4, giving him 30 for the freezing point and 90 for body temperature.

Then, for reasons nobody has ever been able to fathom, he multiplied all the numbers by 16/15, making 32 freezing and 96 body temperature. Boiling point for the time being he ignored altogether.

By and by Fahrenheit got ready to present his scale to London's Royal Society, the scientific big leagues of the day.

It dawned on him that it was going to look a little strange having the zero on his scale just sort of hanging off the end, so to speak. So he cooked up the explanation that zero was the temperature of a mix of ice, water, and ammonium chloride.

[/ QUOTE ]

So take your pick (I tend towards the second link—with working with too much mercury on the side—older thermometers primarily used mercury for the indicator).

Going under the ocean 5,000' is roughly 150 Atmospheres (~2,200 PSI)--and from the earlier link, this would decrease the temperature water ice would form by about -1C (80 ATMs per -0.55C).

The boiling point of water is much more affected by pressure than the freezing point. And, with super cooling (and heating) you can get weird effects that kind of blur what the "freezing" and "boiling" of water is...

-Bill
 

Brock

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ahhhh now that doesn't clear it up at all /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Talk about goofey. Anyway what temp does typical sea water freeze then, boy are we off track /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 

BB

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Brock,

Open ocean sea water begins to freeze around -4C to 28.5F (various sources).

Now for something completely different... Did you know that there are some species of sea life that have "anti freeze" in their blood that allow them to live under sea ice down to 27.1F?

What temperature does Sea Water Freeze?
 

asdalton

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binky,

The reason that CO2 regulators get cold is due to a more subtle phenomenon called the Joule-Thompson effect. The temperature of CO2 drops sharply when its pressure is reduced under constant enthalpy, which is precisely the conditions that the gas experiences when being throttled through a regulator or other tight constriction.

The Joule-Thompson effect for air is pretty weak, because air near atmospheric pressure behaves much more closely like an ideal gas than high-pressure CO2 does. Under ideal gas conditions, the Joule-Thompson effect disappears.
 

cobb

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Wow, I had no idea this would take off like this. Much like the guy who went hiking said, I just unscrewed the lid of the bottle that the sides were sucked in and it froze instantly. I was concerned my freezer wasnt working right, but another bottle was frozen completely.

You guys sound like a smart bunch to hang out with.
 

binky

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[ QUOTE ]
asdalton said:
binky,

The reason that CO2 regulators get cold is due to a more subtle phenomenon called the Joule-Thompson effect. The temperature of CO2 drops sharply when its pressure is reduced under constant enthalpy, which is precisely the conditions that the gas experiences when being throttled through a regulator or other tight constriction.

The Joule-Thompson effect for air is pretty weak, because air near atmospheric pressure behaves much more closely like an ideal gas than high-pressure CO2 does. Under ideal gas conditions, the Joule-Thompson effect disappears.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool!
So...
Cooling through regulator => Joule-Thompson
Cooling of cylinder => adiabatic expansion

Lots going on. Always more to learn. Life is good.
(Binky goes to look up Joule-Thompson)
 

mattheww50

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Joule Thompson cooling occurs whenever you get somewhere near conditions where the gas will liquify. For CO2, well CO2 can exist as a liquid at room temperature. If you are dealing with compressed air, nitrogen, or oxygen, you need to get the cyclinder down to about -100F, and then you will start to see significant Joule Thompson Cooling, For Helium, more like -300F to see it. It occurs when the attractive forces between molecules starts to approach the thermal energy (kT) of the molecules. For most gases at room temperature, kT is huge relative to the attractive forces, which makes them behave more or less like ideal gases. The kT is not large relative to the the attractive forces, the gas ceases to behave like an ideal gas, and you can get Joule Thompson cooling.
 
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