What is the best charger for Eneloops, 18650's and 14500's?

DasFriek

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I somehow missed this thread and had my own thread asking pretty much the same questions, So i got my answers here.
I started out owning a TR-001 and from the research ive found it was said it wasnt a bad charger, But it didnt do your cells any favors in helping to prolong their lives.
My Pila was ordered yesterday, And i use a BC-9009 for my NiMH cells. It seems i have more money invested in chargers and batteries than i do in lights since i main buy those from China. So i wanted to make sure they were well taken care of.
The Pila could use a digital LED screen so you can see whats going on, But thats just my opinion.
 

pobox1475

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Scary, the Pila is the best known "consumer type" charger that I am aware of for charging LiCo, or LiMn cells of 600mAh capacity or above. When I mentioned that it's not perfect, that's true, but it comes the closest of any of the "plug and play" chargers available. The only chargers that are possibly better, are the hobby type chargers. This is because they allow tailoring the charge to each specific cell being charged. They are also more complicated to use, require additional hardware, such as a charging cradle, often a separate power supply, and thus are not as convenient to use.

Dave
Costly too ;~)
 

DasFriek

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I have a DMM, But getting a voltage reading would require removing the cell from the charger to get an accurate reading. And i find that not to be a good thing while a cell is being run threw its paces on a charger.
That may be why i like the BC-9009 NiMH charger as i can see everything thats going on except for a temperature reading which would be nice.
But my DMM will take thermistor probes so i could put one under a cell and watch that. Then again if the Pila had all those option it would cost $130 instead of $50.

Ive also seen it mentioned the Pila will only handle certain mAH cells and at what point does it start working like its supposed to with what cell chemistry?
This is aimed at you for clarification 45/70 as im sure there is a reason your using two different numbers.

45/70:
As for the Pila, while not perfect, it does a pretty good job of following the recommended charging algorithm with cells of ~1500mAh or higher.

45/70:
Scary, the Pila is the best known "consumer type" charger that I am aware of for charging LiCo, or LiMn cells of 600mAh capacity or above.

My main concern is my Trustfire black/red 145000 900mAH cells that im worried about not being charged correctly.
 

HKJ

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There is no reason the check you cells each time you charge. The first few times you use a new charger it is a good idea to see that the cells are between 4.1 and 4.2 volt when they come out of the charger. If you at any time see a cell with more than 4.25 volt from the charger, throw the charger into the recycle bin (Some would do that already at 4.21 volt).
If you run unprotected cells down, you have to check them before charging, if they are below 2.5 volt they goes into the recycle bin.

Note: If the charger shows too high a voltage, replace the battery in the DMM and do another check (or verify with another DMM)!

The general rule charging LiIon is to keep the charging current below 1C, i.e. a 900mAh cells must not be charged with more than 900mA, a lower charge current will extend the lifetime of the cell.
 
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DasFriek

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I come from a EE background and OCD about my hobbies, I use a DMM almost anytime i handle a cell and keep records written on masking tape on the cell.
My TR-001 will always stop at 4.17v or 4.18v and id let it trickle too 4.2v, But after what ive read i wont be doing that anymore, I dont have enough Li-Ion cells to be taking risks of shortening their lifetimes.
I ordered the Pila last night despite the TR-001 doing a decent job on the surface, But since it would trickle charge past the point of the green light coming on i wasn't willing to risk a cell to see how far it would go before cutting off completely.
Im sure there are a few tricks to get the Pila to charge too 4.2v which i wouldn't mind since it does it the correct way with CC/CV methods.

I just got my BC-9009 charger yesterday and its been running 24/7 since then charging 36 cells ive pre purchased with another 12 on the way.
But i stay at .5C rates which is 1000 mAH charge and 500 mAh discharge on AA's rated from 2000 mAH - 2700 mAH as i want to somewhat condition them instead of burning them in. Even tho it sounds boring its actually been fun doing all this.
12 Sanyo 2500 mAH cells were purchased off EBAY as "store returns" for $10 shipped where someone obviously abused them with a crap charger and two even read .002v. Since these are known to be good cells in most peoples eyes i felt it would be fun trying to revive them, And for now im not doing the "Refresh" cycling as that can take days for four cells and i have so many that need thier first charge yet. The "Test" cycle lets me do the same thing 1 cycle at a time when i get bored of doing new cells.

The first test cycle on them netted me 480 mAH - 700 mAH im doing a second "test" cycle now and one finished fast and showed 1274 mAh and the rest have been discharging for 3:30 hours and not even close to being empty. I feel these should be well over 2000 mAH after this cycle.
Thats why paying $50 for a good NiMH charger was worth it to me.
 
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45/70

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Ive also seen it mentioned the Pila will only handle certain mAH cells and at what point does it start working like its supposed to with what cell chemistry?
This is aimed at you for clarification 45/70 as im sure there is a reason your using two different numbers.

45/70:
As for the Pila, while not perfect, it does a pretty good job of following the recommended charging algorithm with cells of ~1500mAh or higher.
45/70:
Scary, the Pila is the best known "consumer type" charger that I am aware of for charging LiCo, or LiMn cells of 600mAh capacity or above.

You're right Das, that is a bit confusing.:)

First of all you have to take into consideration that Pila has designed their charger for charging their cells. I forget what the Pila sizes are called (and they changed them not too long ago), but in actuality they are 17500, 17670, 18500, and 18650 LiCo cells, last time I looked anyway. So these are/were the target sizes and associated capacities the charger was designed for.

As for "what point does it start working like its supposed to", well, it always works like it's supposed to. It's when you charge different size cells than the charger was designed for, that things can get a little "off". This isn't too big a deal, as long as the cells are 600mAh, or greater in capacity.

The 600mAh miniumum is because the CC charge rate of the Pila is 600mA. As HKJ mentioned, the general rule of thumb for charging LiCo Li-Ion cells is, do not charge cells at a rate of more than 1C. Some cells of 18650 and larger size actually have a maximum charge rate of less than 1C.

It's always best to check the cell manufacturer's data sheet to determine the maximum charge rate for cells. In the case of TrustFire and most of the "Fire" cells and many others, this is difficult, as you really have no idea who actually manufactured the cell. In addition, their suppliers change from lot to lot and day to day, but the wrapper usually stays the same. So, the "rule of thumb" approach is best for these "unknown" type cells.

Cells from manufacturers such as Sanyo, LG, Panasonic and so on, it's usually not too difficult to find a data sheet for specific cells. And while AW is not a manufacturer, he does supply charge and discharge limit information for most of his cells.

As for cell chemistry, the Pila IBC is pretty much limited to charging only LiCo (ICR) and LiMn (IMR) chemistry cells. For LiFe (IFR) cells, while the charging algorithm is basically the same, the voltage points are set too high for this chemistry thus making the Pila unsuitable for LiFe cells.

Dave
 
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DasFriek

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Great explanation Dave, And i was with you all the way until the last paragraph as i didn't see any terms that meant it would charge a Li-Ion 900mAH 145000 ok?
I know its my lack of knowledge on terminology, But that would be my smallest cell so if it will work as intended on that cell ill be happy.
Im gonna download the owners manual now so i can read up on it before it gets here and also stops me from asking dumb questions which the manual would answer.

Im pretty sure as i go along ill get better torches and better cells to run them, But for the moment im not running anything over $100 and Trustfire black/red cells seem to have a good reputation to cost percentage that fits into my budget.

Besides AW cells, What are the others i should look at?

(EDIT) NVM, I found the answer and many more in the "Pila IBC Charger Compendium"
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?201323-Pila-IBC-Charger-Compendium
 
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45/70

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......And i was with you all the way until the last paragraph as i didn't see any terms that meant it would charge a Li-Ion 900mAH 145000 ok?
I know its my lack of knowledge on terminology, But that would be my smallest cell so if it will work as intended on that cell ill be happy.

Hey Das. As long as the capacity of the cell you want to charge is 600mAh or higher, and you can physically fit it into the charger, you're good to go. You may have to use additional spacers, or both of the ones that come with the Pila on one side for example, but as long as you can rig it up, it'll work. Some folks run wires from the charger terminals and charge 26500-32650 cells. It's a bit slow naturally, but it'll work.

So, your 14500 cells (which are likely only about 700-750mAh, at best) will charge fine in the Pila. Just don't try to charge a 10440 cell (the highest capacity of these cells is about 300mAh, regardless of what distributors print on the sides of the cell) or something with a capacity of less than 600mAh. Some RCR123/16340 cells are actually under 600mAh (again regardless of what's printed on the side, eg. "1200mAh", but are actually 550mAh), but you can get away with charging them since they're close to 600mAh, it's just not ideal.

Besides AW cells, What are the others i should look at?
To each their own, Das. You pretty much always get what you pay for though. That doesn't mean you can't get decent xxxxxFire et al cells, but the quality varies, so you can never be quite sure what you're going to get.

For cell consistency from batch to batch, dependability and so on, I'd go with, LG, Panasonic, Sanyo, Sony, Samsung, Redilast, AW's etc. With the exception of the last two, these are all manufacturers, but a lot of AW's cells are these brands also, as are Redilast's (Panasonics), under the wrapper. Some of AW's aren't, like some of the weird sizes that I use (14250, 15270 etc.) that the "big boys" don't even make. For these oddball sizes we're pretty much stuck with unknown Chinese manufacturer's cells. I have to say in these weird sizes, I've had the best luck with AW's cells.

Also, if you want protection circuits on the cells, or positive nipples, you'll have to go with a distributor that adds these on, such as AW. There aren't any Li-Ion cell manufacturers that I'm aware of that manufacture anything but unprotected flat top cells. This is because Li-Ion cells are manufactured for the making of battery packs, not cells for flashlight use, or anything else requiring individual, or "loose" cells, as they are called. The manufacturing of battery packs does not require positive nipples, or individual cell protection, as the protection circuitry is added to the pack, not each cell individually.

Dave
 

ScaryFatKidGT

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So the PILA will trickle charge up to around 4.2v then shut off?

I also want to know what 18650's to get. From what I see the AW 2900mah look like the best but will the flat top be ok in Fenix stuff? And a lot of people seem to use Trustfire.

With the Sanyo MQR06 I can charge 4 AA's all with a different SOC just fine??
 

samm

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Thanks Dave. I'm still in the learning mode, so to get specific answers on complicated questions from someone who knows, is invaluable. You have probably saved many members from many disasters by sharing your knowledge. Hats off to you.
 

DasFriek

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Thanks Dave, Very informative even when i read as much info as possible with search and Google.
My 145000 will be fine then, Plus im not in deep enough........yet, That i need to make a cradle with leads for odd sizes.
Im pretty well versed on protected and unprotected cells and with my limited experience ill stick with protected until i get more familiar with flashlights and their cells that can be on the edge.

ScaryFatKidGT- This link will explain almost anything you want to know about the Pila IBC charger.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?201323-Pila-IBC-Charger-Compendium
I use Trustfire red/black cells which seem to be the most consistent and get pretty high marks in testing while being reasonable price wise.
Dave pretty much listed the best cells for protected and unprotected, But The Trustfire i use is not as consistent as the ones he listed.
During comparisons the Trustfire red/black always seem to rate high and consistent but lagging behind the better more expensive cells, So they are a good compromise for me until i need better and stronger cells.
 

RAM2

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I just bought a kit of Eneloops, two aaa and four aa plus the white Sanyo charger. Is this a good charger?

Sanyo recommends that you only use their charger for Eneloops and it will do a good job when charging 2 or 4 batteries. If that is what you are looking for, it will do it.
 

hank

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> They sell these?? ....
> Sanyo MQN06TG-4 Universal 4-Position Charger Set with 4 AA Ni-MH Eneloop Batteries
> The Sanyo MQN06 charger with the Sanyo Eneloop batteries is the premier battery choice.
> The MQN04 can charge either 2 or 4 batteries of size AA or AAA at once. <---- changed the model number!! in the description

Read the fine print; not clear what they're selling there.
 

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