Dr. Mario
Enlightened
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I certainly hope so, as it's hard to tell under the wrap.
Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?
- Thread starter fivemega
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Why Use Unprotected While [SIZE=+2]Protected Works Fine?[/SIZE]
Ozythemandias
Flashlight Enthusiast
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I saw this on the home page in huge red letters and actually laughed, kudos.
vadimax
Flashlight Enthusiast
Because they don't. While flashlight vendors compete for compactness more and more lights fit protected cells poorly (springs overstressed or even deform a battery when closed) or do not fit them at all. Often current protection kicks in too early, disabling a high drain light, when unprotected cell of the same vendor works just fine not even warming up under load.
Regarding the Darwin Award and Intelligent User comments, would you hand a light with unprotected batteries to a child, or to someone who was an otherwise responsible adult but wasn't into geeking out on electronics and battery chemistry?
- Say for instance in the unlikely situation where the light was a tool that needed to work without being a distraction regarding its own special needs.
- Say for instance in the unlikely situation where the light was a tool that needed to work without being a distraction regarding its own special needs.
ChrisGarrett
Flashlight Enthusiast
To answer your question, I wouldn't hand a flashlight with a naked li-ion cell to anybody who wasn't versed in the use of such, but I would probably lend a light that ran off of AAs to a neighbor, or one that used say...D batteries.
I have a few lights that fit into the latter category, for such an event, but as a rule, I don't any longer buy protected cells for my personal use.
Chris
markr6
Flashaholic
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Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?
It feels natural!
It feels natural!
ven
Flashaholic
For the 1st time in ages(years) i have bought 2 button top protected keeppower 16650's. The reason simply for a few extra mm in length for some lower powered drop ins(standard surefire hosts). I have and still do use some magnets, these are on the standard flat top sanyo 16650 4.35v cells in standard hosts. But for work, the highest i will use is around 1.5a iirc for the oveready 219b mule(around 300lm which can be a little too bright sometimes). Even the sportac triple sees 20% mode 90% of the time in work.
If current protection kicks in too early, then it does not work fine.
The question is clearly mentioned in post #1 and #62
Just imagine you have two identical flashlight of same make and model, one has protected and second has unprotected and they both work same way and you can't tell the difference, which one you prefer and why?
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So your unprotected cells are for your own use only.ChrisGarrett said:
I can understand that and 100% acceptable.
StorminMatt
Flashlight Enthusiast
Why don't I use protected cells? There are several reasons:
1. SELECTION - Only a few different cells are available as protected cells. For obvious reasons, these are typically low current, high capacity cells like the NCR18650B or NCR18650GA. These may not be bad cells. But they are limiting, even in lights that don't draw HUGE current. For instance, high current cells like the VTC6 now offer virtually the same capacity as the old NCR18650B with better voltage. Also, cells other than these may be just as good, but available at a lower price because of their obscurity (think Samsung 35E vs NCR18650B or MJ1). Using unprotected cells allows you to choose which cells you want to use rather than being forced to use only those available as protected cells.
2. PRICE - Of course, you already knew this one. Unprotected cells are quite a bit less expensive than protected.
3. FITMENT - We all know about length issues with protected cells. We also know that some newer lights (like Zebralights and the Astrolux quads) can't fit protected cells. Protected cells are also generalky thicker, which can cause fitment issues as well.
4. SAFER CELLS - True ICR cells are largely a thing of the past. The newer hybrid cells are LOTS safer, so protection circuits just aren't as necessary to keep you safe.
5. PROTECTED LIGHTS - Most quality single cell lights have good onboard overdischarge protection. Overdischarge protection on the cell just isn't needed in this situation.
6. NOT WANTING TO BE LEFT IN THE DARK - Protected cells cut power instantaneously when voltage is too low. This can be inconvenient at best, or dangerous at worst. Protected lights generally step down before finally cutting power, allowing you to have SOME light. So you won't trip and twist your ankle on a rock because everything just went dark.
7. BETTER VOLTAGE - Protection circuits generally eat up a tenth or two of a volt. This may not seem like much. But it can make a difference, particularly at hugher brightness levels. It can also reduce runtime somewhat since the voltage threshold for a light's built-in protection is reached sooner. Voltage can also be better since using unprotected cells allows the use of higher current cells (which maintain voltage better).
8. HIGHER CURRENT - There are two reasons for this. First, high current cells are generally unprotected. Secondly, thr protection circuit will often kick in even below the rated current of a cell. Therefore, unprotected cells will work better in the many lights available that can draw higher currents.
9. SIMPLICITY/RUGGEDNESS - There is one less thing to go bad in an unprotected cell. Protection circuits donoccasionally fail. And a drop where the cell lands on the PCB has the potential to damage it. When a protection circuit goes bad, the cell is useless. Sure, you can always pull the circuit and use it as an unprotected cell. But you may be in a situation where you don't have a wrapper to pull this off (like out hiking). And, of course, if you are a member of the 'protected cells ONLY' brigade, this is a no-no anyway.
10. SAFETY - Yes, I said safety. Most protected cells still have the strip on the side from the positive terminal to the PCB at the negative side. As you probably know, damage to the insulating layer can cause a dead short. Having this kind of damage is NOT so far-fetched, as a good drop on sharp rocks could do it. It is also possible for a drop where the the cell lands on the PCB itself to damage the PCB in such a way that it shorts out. In addition to the issue to physical damage, there is the issue of questionable suppliers. Low quality protection circuits or the absence of protection altogether (which may cause the user to be lax since fhey think the cell is protected) could cause problems as well.
11. WIDE AVAILABILITY OF GOOD CHARGERS - Quality chargers these days do a GREAT job of properly terminating the charge. If you stay away from cheap junk chargers, there just isn't much to worry about as far as chargers overcharging batteries.
1. SELECTION - Only a few different cells are available as protected cells. For obvious reasons, these are typically low current, high capacity cells like the NCR18650B or NCR18650GA. These may not be bad cells. But they are limiting, even in lights that don't draw HUGE current. For instance, high current cells like the VTC6 now offer virtually the same capacity as the old NCR18650B with better voltage. Also, cells other than these may be just as good, but available at a lower price because of their obscurity (think Samsung 35E vs NCR18650B or MJ1). Using unprotected cells allows you to choose which cells you want to use rather than being forced to use only those available as protected cells.
2. PRICE - Of course, you already knew this one. Unprotected cells are quite a bit less expensive than protected.
3. FITMENT - We all know about length issues with protected cells. We also know that some newer lights (like Zebralights and the Astrolux quads) can't fit protected cells. Protected cells are also generalky thicker, which can cause fitment issues as well.
4. SAFER CELLS - True ICR cells are largely a thing of the past. The newer hybrid cells are LOTS safer, so protection circuits just aren't as necessary to keep you safe.
5. PROTECTED LIGHTS - Most quality single cell lights have good onboard overdischarge protection. Overdischarge protection on the cell just isn't needed in this situation.
6. NOT WANTING TO BE LEFT IN THE DARK - Protected cells cut power instantaneously when voltage is too low. This can be inconvenient at best, or dangerous at worst. Protected lights generally step down before finally cutting power, allowing you to have SOME light. So you won't trip and twist your ankle on a rock because everything just went dark.
7. BETTER VOLTAGE - Protection circuits generally eat up a tenth or two of a volt. This may not seem like much. But it can make a difference, particularly at hugher brightness levels. It can also reduce runtime somewhat since the voltage threshold for a light's built-in protection is reached sooner. Voltage can also be better since using unprotected cells allows the use of higher current cells (which maintain voltage better).
8. HIGHER CURRENT - There are two reasons for this. First, high current cells are generally unprotected. Secondly, thr protection circuit will often kick in even below the rated current of a cell. Therefore, unprotected cells will work better in the many lights available that can draw higher currents.
9. SIMPLICITY/RUGGEDNESS - There is one less thing to go bad in an unprotected cell. Protection circuits donoccasionally fail. And a drop where the cell lands on the PCB has the potential to damage it. When a protection circuit goes bad, the cell is useless. Sure, you can always pull the circuit and use it as an unprotected cell. But you may be in a situation where you don't have a wrapper to pull this off (like out hiking). And, of course, if you are a member of the 'protected cells ONLY' brigade, this is a no-no anyway.
10. SAFETY - Yes, I said safety. Most protected cells still have the strip on the side from the positive terminal to the PCB at the negative side. As you probably know, damage to the insulating layer can cause a dead short. Having this kind of damage is NOT so far-fetched, as a good drop on sharp rocks could do it. It is also possible for a drop where the the cell lands on the PCB itself to damage the PCB in such a way that it shorts out. In addition to the issue to physical damage, there is the issue of questionable suppliers. Low quality protection circuits or the absence of protection altogether (which may cause the user to be lax since fhey think the cell is protected) could cause problems as well.
11. WIDE AVAILABILITY OF GOOD CHARGERS - Quality chargers these days do a GREAT job of properly terminating the charge. If you stay away from cheap junk chargers, there just isn't much to worry about as far as chargers overcharging batteries.
archimedes
Flashaholic
Although there are certain situations I still prefer protected cells (or unprotected cells, for that matter) ... outstanding summary and post, Matt, thanks[emoji106]
markr6
Flashaholic
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2012
- Messages
- 9,258
Yes, very nice! :twothumbs
I only use protected in my Nitecore EC4SW just because it came with them. But it doesn't matter what you use in that light...it will suck them dry in a couple weeks just sitting off!! Typical Nitecore.
ven
Flashaholic
Excellent post Matt, that sums up my thoughts and reasons why I myself mainly use high drain cells. 
Anyone else?
Assuming protected cell works fine (without problem) in a specific flashlight, why do you use unprotected in same flashlight?
Assuming protected cell works fine (without problem) in a specific flashlight, why do you use unprotected in same flashlight?
I'm using protected most of the time while unprotected in flashlights which requires 5-10A but have driver set with Vlow, not allowing to go overdischarged. Sometimes using unprotected in the same flashlight for a test to see how the same flashlight behave.
Btw, good point Matt.
Btw, good point Matt.
vadimax
Flashlight Enthusiast
In most situations I avoid protected cells. Right to that moment I had only issues with them when protection kicks in because the light wants more current during its normal operation (the battery discharges, voltage goes down, regulated driver tries to pull more A —> hello darkness).
Finally two of them have found their real application — they go to a Tecsun S-8800e that goes to my wife Did that because of two points: I have no idea about Tecsun's built in charger quality; this radio battery nests are so long that some NCR18650GAs barely compress the "-" spring making me bother about poor contact.
Finally two of them have found their real application — they go to a Tecsun S-8800e that goes to my wife
Did that because of two points: I have no idea about Tecsun's built in charger quality; this radio battery nests are so long that some NCR18650GAs barely compress the "-" spring making me bother about poor contact.
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peter yetman
Flashlight Enthusiast
I used to puirchase only protected cells until three or four PCBs failed in about a month. What with that and being left in the dark, I'm all IMR and INR now.
I take care of my cells and use decent chargers, I see no problem with this.
May I ask a question? If I lend a light to someone who is uninitiated, how can they do themselves harm with an unprotected cell in a light without LVP? I'm not lending them a charger.
If they run the cell past safe discharge, the only way to cause a fire is if i recharge it.
Am I right or wrong, please?
P
I take care of my cells and use decent chargers, I see no problem with this.
May I ask a question? If I lend a light to someone who is uninitiated, how can they do themselves harm with an unprotected cell in a light without LVP? I'm not lending them a charger.
If they run the cell past safe discharge, the only way to cause a fire is if i recharge it.
Am I right or wrong, please?
P
Seems like you never pay attention to question. If protected cell can't provide current demand, then you can't use it. Then we don't have a question. You have to find another solution. You have to use unprotected or even IMR. We all understand that and we are assuming a protected cell works [SIZE=+5]FINE[/SIZE] (without any problem) in any specific flashlight. In this case, why use unprotected?
Please see post #70 and #75
===
If a PCB failed in a cell, you will throw away $10~15 and get a new one. Can you do it if you or your loved one injured from unprotected?
BTW, you can always carry some extra fully recharged cell if you think you may need them.
There is no problem with this but is there any problem with a little extra care?
If a protected cell has electrical short circuit, there is a chance that PBC block the current flow but the chance for unprotected is ZERO. In this case, BOOM
Not worth it.
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WalkIntoTheLight
Flashlight Enthusiast
Protected cells are for little girls. Be a man! :rock:
