Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

[fivemega]

Protected cells are for little girls. Be a man! :rock:

Yes, be a man but smart man and use protected.
Nobody can tell voltage of battery while flashlight is switched on and running unless a voltmeter is connected to battery all the time for monitoring battery voltage. A protected cell will do that and automatically shuts down to save the cell from over discharging.
So no matter if you are a little girl or big man. Be smart.

 

[hiuintahs]

For the most part I don't us protected. If I need a button top battery for a flashlight, then its protected. If I do a run time test, then its a protected cell. If I give a 18650 light to a relative or friend that I don't think will pay attention to the logistics of lithium ion, then I make sure its protected cell. Most of my batteries are unprotected. My favorite cell right now is the unprotected 3500mAh NCR18650GA.

 

[DayofReckoning]

Well, I am certainly limited on my battery knowledge, but I can think of one scenario where running unprotected cells could have an advantage.

When running certain incandescent setups, protected cells may cause one to have to double/triple tap the switch to order to fire up the bulb. My understanding is unprotected cells would not require this.

 

[fivemega]

running unprotected cells could have an advantage.

An advantage but three disadvantages.

Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works [size=+2]Fine[/size]?

When running certain incandescent setups, protected cells may cause one to have to double/triple tap the switch to order to fire up the bulb.

This situation is out of our discussion. Double or triple tap is not [SIZE=+2]FINE[/SIZE].

 

[vadimax]

If protected and unprotected battery work fine in some application there is still a difference: the protection circuit serves no other function than increasing the entropy of the universe — it generates useless heat That energy could have been used to produce light.

 

[markr6]

I use unprotected. I never wore a helmet on my bike when I was a kid. I regularly drive 5mph over the limit. I eat donuts. I won't be on this planet for long!

 

[vadimax]

I use unprotected. I never wore a helmet on my bike when I was a kid. I regularly drive 5mph over the limit. I eat donuts. I won't be on this planet for long!

You forgot to mention business that sounds similar to "six"

 

[id30209]

Guys i belive it's fun to you but there's a reason why protected and unprotected cells are made and for what use. Using blindly only one type of batteries isn't good for your wallet sometimes.

 

[vadimax]

No one denies protected cells entirely. In situations with too many variables they are good. But we pretend to understand what we are doing. And in this case protection circuit plays the only function of a useless electric ballast that adds to the system complexity and reduces reliability via adding one more point of possible failure.

 

[xxo]

All else being equal, protected cells are:

- More expensive.

- Slightly less efficient.

- Have extra components that can fail, or even potentially short out if damaged.

I think protected cells make a lot of sense in lights without a dependable low Voltage cut off. But for a quality light with good low Voltage protection (and over Voltage protection if the cells are designed to charge inside the light) built in, I don't see the advantage of protected cells.


I would turn the question around: Why use protected cells in a light with low Voltage protection?

 

[Gauss163]

[...] one type of batteries isn't good for your wallet sometimes.

So, unprotected cells are pants-on-fire risks, but protected cells are wallet-on-fire risks? Please give a link to some YouTube wallet-on-fire videos! Vaper pants-on-fire are passe by now.

More seriously, it is difficult to give a good general answer to such questions since the correct choice is highly context dependent (on device, quality of cell and protection circuit, ability of user to rigorously follow safety protocols, etc).

 

[magellan]

<<Vaper pants-on-fire are passe by now.>>

LOL

I recall one story of a vaper who had a pretty severe accident. He was running one of those custom sub-ohm hot-wire mech mods, as they call them, and the battery exploded. Burned his nose and face, knocked out a couple of teeth, and it was even reported that his jaw was fractured. Fortunately those kinds of serious incidents are rare.

 

[ven]

Vaping can get crazy, some use such low ohm coils in their builds..............basically they are shorting the battery/s out. Just checked now and my mod is using 6.8a through 2x 20700 cells(not much load for 3s or so at a time). I dont get the crazy build, have tried 80w even up to 120w and the tank is hot to touch in a vape ................each to their own.

Question for using unprotected instead of protected when protected works fine is really down to the user. Having extra protection always makes sense if available to the end user. Now i have seen where protected cells have shorted through the strip on the side getting caught. So positives, over and under voltage protection is the usual, too much load trips as well(say 5a or 8a etc variable). Negatives, potential slight parasitic drain, something else in the equation to fail(trip in the field and no way of resetting or having no back up..........). Cell length, some lights are not 69/70mm+ friendly. Cost is maybe another factor, 10 protected cells could be $30 or so ,more over unprotected(just an example).

Now some of my lights(certainly 16650) have PCB's, this is more for length with the extra few mm making better contact. Now these lights are sportac triples and OR mule which dont ask more than 3a. Also being in work, its a little more protection. My sons lights have PCB's, now i take care of the charging etc. If anything fails(like me!) there is a little protection there for a cell draining(say Callum left a light on by mistake........it happens, even us adults can do it time to time.

I am a little OCD with my charging and voltages, every cell gets checked in a charger to mentally note what i have used. If i use a light in work, the cell gets topped up at the end of the day(or 1st thing next morning) ready to go again. Only times i dont top off is when the use has only been a few mins-20m. I dont recall ever a cell getting bellow 3.5v in work, mostly 3.8v and up.

At home i use some more demanding lights, or ones designed around using high drain cells(where even button top unprotected wont fit!). So flat top high drain cells, i make sure my source for these cells is reputable. I only use said cells i know and in good condition, noting the IR each time i top off. Any damage to wraps get replaced there and then.............If high drain cells are required, i make sure their spec is above the required, i dont push any cells above and beyond their specs. Multi cell lights are matched the best i can, again taking note of voltages after use. If one cell is weak(lower V ), then a new batch of 4 would get used, others used solely in single cell lights.

Protected or unprotected, all should be treated the same, regardless of any protection.........with respect and without abuse. Protection may give some a false sense of safety, thinking they can get away with more abuse/neglect.............i am sure it happens. Maybe human nature................just a thought.

Cheers.

 

[Gauss163]

I recall one story of a vaper who had a pretty severe accident [...] Burned his nose and face, knocked out a couple of teeth, and it was even reported that his jaw was fractured.

I reported that to the smoke-and-fire subforum a couple years ago (photo below). Still waiting for a good wallet-on-(ultra)fire specimen for the zoo. Aha, no one has patented the idea of a wallet with 18650 storage compartment. I just inquired about such on Alibaba. So it shouldn't be long before they pop up all over eBay. Stock up on popcorn.

Fortunately those kinds of serious incidents are rare.

Alas, not as rare as they could be with proper safety training. Of course said injuries could have been avoided by using the appropriate Ultrafire endorsed vaping gear, e.g. their patented 10,000 °C mask below (highly recommend when vaping with their 10,000 mAh cells). Vape ultra-safely folks.

 

[WalkIntoTheLight]

All else being equal, protected cells are:

- More expensive.

- Slightly less efficient.

- Have extra components that can fail, or even potentially short out if damaged.

I think protected cells make a lot of sense in lights without a dependable low Voltage cut off. But for a quality light with good low Voltage protection (and over Voltage protection if the cells are designed to charge inside the light) built in, I don't see the advantage of protected cells.


I would turn the question around: Why use protected cells in a light with low Voltage protection?

Even if your light doesn't have LVP, you're unlikely to drain an unprotected cell unless you forget the light is on and leave it for a few days. The emitter will cut-out at about 3v, and you'll get plenty of warning before that because your light will no longer get higher modes. The driver likely doesn't use much power when the LED is out, but you'll still want to turn it off for real before waiting too long.

The exception is a light with a boost-driver, but I don't know of any brand that has a boost driver but no LVP.

I never understood some flashaholics insistence on protection circuits. We all know proper battery care. Besides, a protection circuit won't save you from damage or internal shorts, which is the most dangerous kind of random-venting scenarios.

 

[Gauss163]

[...] Having extra protection always makes sense if available to the end user. Now i have seen where protected cells have shorted through the strip on the side getting caught [...]

Yes, that's one of the problems with some common single-cell protection designs. The (positive) metal strip running down the side of the can is separated from the negative can only by thin tape. This increases by an order of magnitude the surface area where shorts can be induced by small metallic objects. In that sense they are less safe that unprotected cells. More generally the protection itself is poorly (mechanically) protected, so e.g. a dropped cell could cause significant damage to the protection circuit, possibly disabling some of its protection mechanisms.

 

[ven]

Yes, that's one of the problems with some common single-cell protection designs. The (positive) metal strip running down the side of the can is separated from the negative can only by thin tape. This increases by an order of magnitude the surface area where shorts can be induced by small metallic objects. In that sense they are less safe that unprotected cells. More generally the protection itself is poorly (mechanically) protected, so e.g. a dropped cell could cause significant damage to the protection circuit, possibly disabling some of its protection mechanisms.

Thank you for confirming, i was sure i had seen(or read) reports of such incidents. Fenix(off the top of my head) seem to have come up with some clever ideas regarding PCB's with their protection. Going beyond min/max V protection. Over heat protection and also in the structural design. Maybe soon we will have high drain cells with protection, yet not too much added in length to give more flexibility in flashlights(fussy ones that like shorter cells for example).

 

[magellan]

I reported that to the smoke-and-fire subforum a couple years ago (photo below). Still waiting for a good wallet-on-(ultra)fire specimen for the zoo. Aha, no one has patented the idea of a wallet with 18650 storage compartment. I just inquired about such on Alibaba. So it shouldn't be long before they pop up all over eBay. Stock up on popcorn.



Alas, not as rare as they could be with proper safety training. Of course said injuries could have been avoided by using the appropriate Ultrafire endorsed vaping gear, e.g. their patented 10,000 °C mask below (highly recommend when vaping with their 10,000 mAh cells). Vape ultra-safely folks.

Wow. That's a pretty dramatic photo. Thanks for reposting that along with your post.

I missed your post but encountered the story on a vape website when I was trying to learn more about these vaping devices. (Glad I remembered the details right ;-)). I don't vape myself, but the vapers were pushing the limits and I was following their adventures, so to speak, because I was curious how this would play out. It's one thing to be holding a flashlight in your hand, but it's another thing to be using a device that's right in your face.

 

[magellan]

Vaping can get crazy, some use such low ohm coils in their builds..............basically they are shorting the battery/s out. Just checked now and my mod is using 6.8a through 2x 20700 cells(not much load for 3s or so at a time). I dont get the crazy build, have tried 80w even up to 120w and the tank is hot to touch in a vape ................each to their own.

Question for using unprotected instead of protected when protected works fine is really down to the user. Having extra protection always makes sense if available to the end user. Now i have seen where protected cells have shorted through the strip on the side getting caught. So positives, over and under voltage protection is the usual, too much load trips as well(say 5a or 8a etc variable). Negatives, potential slight parasitic drain, something else in the equation to fail(trip in the field and no way of resetting or having no back up..........). Cell length, some lights are not 69/70mm+ friendly. Cost is maybe another factor, 10 protected cells could be $30 or so ,more over unprotected(just an example).

Now some of my lights(certainly 16650) have PCB's, this is more for length with the extra few mm making better contact. Now these lights are sportac triples and OR mule which dont ask more than 3a. Also being in work, its a little more protection. My sons lights have PCB's, now i take care of the charging etc. If anything fails(like me!) there is a little protection there for a cell draining(say Callum left a light on by mistake........it happens, even us adults can do it time to time.

I am a little OCD with my charging and voltages, every cell gets checked in a charger to mentally note what i have used. If i use a light in work, the cell gets topped up at the end of the day(or 1st thing next morning) ready to go again. Only times i dont top off is when the use has only been a few mins-20m. I dont recall ever a cell getting bellow 3.5v in work, mostly 3.8v and up.

At home i use some more demanding lights, or ones designed around using high drain cells(where even button top unprotected wont fit!). So flat top high drain cells, i make sure my source for these cells is reputable. I only use said cells i know and in good condition, noting the IR each time i top off. Any damage to wraps get replaced there and then.............If high drain cells are required, i make sure their spec is above the required, i dont push any cells above and beyond their specs. Multi cell lights are matched the best i can, again taking note of voltages after use. If one cell is weak(lower V ), then a new batch of 4 would get used, others used solely in single cell lights.

Protected or unprotected, all should be treated the same, regardless of any protection.........with respect and without abuse. Protection may give some a false sense of safety, thinking they can get away with more abuse/neglect.............i am sure it happens. Maybe human nature................just a thought.

Cheers.

Very informative. Thanks for the detailed post on your experiences as I've been following the vaping area a bit although I don't vape myself.

 

[ven]

Thank you Magellan