Titanium bicycle frames

I've been riding a mid-1980s vintage Raleigh since the early 1990s. The bike has served me well to date. About two and a half years ago I upgraded to a 10-speed STI system, and also added aero wheels and airless tires. Everything still works well after 4700 miles. My reason for starting this thread is I've come to the realization that the frame won't last forever. It has a fair amount of rust on it, despite the fact that I never ride in the rain. Perhaps this winter I'll strip it down and paint it. Nevertheless, I'm sure ~25,000 NYC miles have taken their toll on the frame. The frame broke near the right rear dropout about 12 years ago. My adhoc repair, which is basically using a steel plate to hold things together, has worked well ever since. Should failures occur in more stressed areas, they would be beyond my capability to repair.

I'm at the point then of considering preemptively replacing the frame before some critical failure occurs. Of the four common frame materials, I'm leaning heavily towards titanium. Here's my rationale when comparing the pros and cons:

1) Steel-probably the best all around frame material in terms of cost and performance. The primary drawback is rust, especially in places with wet, humid conditions such as NYC. In general I beat on bikes, so eventually paint will chip, and the frame will rust.

2) Aluminum-lighter than steel, impervious to rust, can be made into aero shapes. The biggest downside for me is the limited fatigue life of aluminum. Sure, aluminum frames are overengineered to account for this. Nevertheless, in a place like NYC where smooth roads are the exception, I would be very concerned riding anything with a limited fatigue life.

3) Carbon-light, aero, doesn't rust. I wouldn't even consider a carbon frame on account of the poor condition of the streets here, plus the typical sudden failure mode of carbon fiber. The bike might seem fine after hitting a huge pothole, such as the ~12" deep monster I hit at 22 mph back in April (surprisingly, I didn't fall, and my wheels weren't damaged). Later on, however, microfractures might suddenly cause catastrophic failure.

4) Titanium-similar characteristics to steel, unlimited fatigue life, impervious to rust, lighter than steel. Only drawback is the initial cost, although it seems titanium frames can sometimes be had on eBay for $300 to $400.

OK, I've more or less settled on titanium unless someone thinks there's a good reason not to. I do have some questions:

1) I'm 5' 9", and my PBH (pubic bone height) is about 86 cm. What size frame would be appropriate? This is a road bike, and I'll be using 700c wheels and 700x20 airless tires.

2) Are there any makes/models to avoid? On the flip side, which are the best brands?

3) It seems most titanium frames come with a carbon fork. To me it seems the front fork is the very last place you would want to use carbon. Any frames with titanium forks?

4) Any aero titanium frames? This to me would be the best of all worlds.

5) Should I go with oversized tubes? I'm a fairly strong rider (~200 watts output average over an hour) and frame flex might be a concern.

Obviously, given my rather precarious financial state, I'd like to spend as little as possible. And there's no hurry. I'll probably be able to get at least a few more years out of the Raleigh while I'm waiting for a good value.

Here's the Raleigh as it is now ( weight with everything as shown is about 28.5 pounds and yes, the frame is a little large for my height ):

I have never ridden a ti frame, so I can't tell you a whole lot about that. A few observations other things:

If you are 5' 9", I would think a 56 cm probably would be good, maybe 54 if you have short legs. I'm 5' 10" and ride (well, sometimes, I haven't been on it this year, which I feel bad about) a 56 cm 2005 Felt F55. Check the size of the frame you are riding now if you are happy with the fit. Another thing that would be good is to figure out what sort of geometry your frame now has if you like it, and look for a frame that is similar. The downside to buying just a frame and then building a bike is that you can't ride it before you build it, so if it goes together and then you get on and you are uncomfortable, tough. Now you're stuck with it.

As far as carbon forks, my Felt has a carbon fork, seat post, and seat stays and carbon crank arms. The benefit of carbon in these places is that it does have flex and absorbs a lot of vibration and road noise. That's why people like it and why they put it in those places even on aluminum frames on pricier bikes. I recall that you have said in the past that you have hand/wrist issues, so you would probably enjoy the merits of carbon forks and handlebars as it would probably ease up the pounding on your wrists. And it is surprisingly tough and durable. Barring any major crashes, I would think carbon components would last you a while. And a periodic trip your your local bike mechanic for a checkup probably could spot problem areas if they arise. Consider the pounding my carbon crank arms take, and they haven't broken yet. Lots of people are riding carbon, and I don't hear of many catastrophic crashes due to total frame failure.


The other thing (and I'm sure you are not keen on the idea at the moment but hear me out) is you could get a whole new bike, all built for you; just take it home and ride it. There are great deals (especially in a soft economy) on used higher end road bikes out there. I could not help but notice the 28.5 lbs your bike weighs that is a beast!! and the older drivetrain. (My Felt is an alu/carbon combo with a Dura Ace component set and FSA carbon crankset and even with Speedplay pedals and bottle cages on weighs 10 lbs less than the Raleigh.) The lightweight, high efficiency cranksets and derailleurs available right now would blow your mind. Things have changed a lot in bike components since that I was born (roughly when that bike was born). A bike with a Shimano Ultegra, heck, even 105 component set, would make you feel like a whole different rider, increasing stiffness and power transfer, efficiency, reliability and crispness of shifts and lowering the weight too. As someone who rides a good amount, you would definitely appreciate the HUGE improvements in a newer setup. I'd say toss a couple dollars a week in a coffee can, ride the Raleigh for 2 more years, and buy a nice used bike.

Frame size varies greatly between different manufacturers. Best advice is to actually go to the shop and see how each specific bike fits you. I'm also 5' 9" and have owned many bikes. I've owned frames between 52 and 56cm.

Giant and Trek are probably the biggest names. A lot of bike snobs don't like them because they are so common but they do make some of the best bikes and are excellent value for money.
Cannondale are also really good to ride but have been known to have issues with build quality.
Bianchi is a good italian brand.
Litespeed make the best titanium bikes IMO.
If you want something more exclusive (reads: more expensive for the same thing but cooler because no one else has one) look at Colnago, Pinarello, Principia, Look.

As for frame material, Aluminium is vastly underrated. It's true that it was no good in the old days and tended to break easily; this is because they were using the same designs as the steel frames for a material with completely different characteristics. Now with improved designs and better alloys, a good aluminium frame will NOT break no matter how bumpy your roads are and how many miles you do. Pretty much every other component will fail before your frame does. People also say that aluminium gives an uncomfortable ride, but this is not really true. This has more to do with the design of the frame than the material.

If you can afford a really high end bike, by all means go for titanium or carbon. If not stick with aluminium. A good aluminium frame will easily outperform a bad Carbon or titanium frame.

Don't worry too much about aerodynamics unless you do time trials or triathlon (and you're fast). Won't make make much of a difference unless your name is Lance Armstrong. I remember reading that disc wheels are only an advantage if you average over 25mph. If not then it's just heavier and much less comfortable over the bumps, not to mention lethal in strong crosswinds.

Also, In my experience a new ready built bike is much better than an old beaten up but top-of-the-range bike for the same money. The wheels are rounder, the gearshifts faster and more precise and all the components will last longer.

Thanks for the responses so far. I actually am considering the complete bike option since it seems often a complete bike can be had for not much more than the cost of a decent titanium frame. I found some examples on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170677592455&ssPageName=STRK:
MEWAX:IT

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330596949228&category=98084&_
trksid=p5197.c0.m619

This one from a bike store is brand new, and at $1699 seems to be a bargain:

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/lechamp_ti_10.htm

My only reason for going the frame only route is if I can score a decent frame and fork cheap (say a few hundred), then I can reuse the components I used to upgrade the Raleigh. Both derailleurs, the chain, the rear cassette, the crank/chainring/bottom bracket, the chain, the shifters, and the wheels were replaced during the upgrade with brand new components. The derailleurs are 105. Not the best, but worlds better than what I had. Rear cassette is an 11-26 SRAM, front crankset is a 30-42-52 Exadrive 10-speed. I picked up Campagnolo 10-speed "brifters" for less than Shimano was going for, and managed to make it work with the SRAM cassette spacing.

I'm actually not all that happy with the current frame size. It's too large for me. I can't really seem to get everything 100% right. I can ride the bike for about 1.5 hours before getting fatigued but that's it. I tend to think I wouldn't experience that on a better fitted frame. As for my hand/wrist issues, it gets painful on the drops after about 30 minutes. Regardless of whether I use the Raleigh a few more years, or buy a new bike/frame, I'm planning to start using aerobars to alleviate that.

Aerodynamics are only a concern in that I just want to make the bike as efficient as possible. Truth is, if money were no object, my ride of choice would be the Quest velomobile. Since I don't have close to $10K to drop on a machine, I figured I'll just optimize efficiency on a standard upright bicycle. The rear disk actually gives me about 1.5 to 2 mph more speed for any given effort. I tried a front disk once and found it gave me another 3 mph (I was getting past 25 mph fairly easily), but made the bike impossible in crosswinds. Beyond the rear disk, the frame is the only other place for aero improvements. Again, I don't expect an aero frame will gain me all that much since the frame only accounts for ~20% of wind drag, but every bit helps. Unfortunately, I haven't seen much as far as aero titanium frames go. I bet they cost serious $$$ if they exist. An aero frame for me falls into the category of "nice to have but not 100% necessary".

I haven't written off aluminum 100%. I merely mentioned the fatigue issue because I had read about it. If aluminum frames have come this far, they might be worth a look. I do see lots of cool aero designs in aluminum.

On carbon forks, yes, the shock absorption part sounds great. I remain concerned about failure given that the front fork is probably the single most critical component on the bike. This somewhat sets my mind at ease although I still tend to be very cautious when trying anything new. I actually did have a front fork failure but I wrote it off because it was a cheap department store bike (Huffy). Turns out due to misalignment a groove was gouged right where the front fork is inserted into the frame. Eventually the fork broke off right in that spot. Fortunately it occurred right after I was accelerating from a stop, at a few mph. I didn't even fall, just put my foot down to brace myself as the fork gave way. I shudder to think if this had happened at speed. I have exceeded 50 mph while descending on occasion. In any case, it's more how carbon forks deal with severe impacts, such as potholes, which concerns me more than their fatigue life. The aforementioned impact from the pothole back in April was severe enough to shear my GPS bracket in two. I was totally surprised that I had no wheel damage whatsoever. Today's wheels are definitely worlds better than what I was using ten or twenty years ago. I used to "potato-chip" wheels from potholes 1/3 that size back in the old days.

I can't offer advice, perhaps also post on a bike forum? I ride an alum scwhinn which serves me , but dont ride as much as you.

Btw I feel like I have seen your bike somewhere.... Perhaps somewhere in flushing or locked somewhere?

IcantC said:

Btw I feel like I have seen your bike somewhere.... Perhaps somewhere in flushing or locked somewhere?

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If you're in the Flushing area you may well have seen me. Generally when I ride I'm on main arteries like Union Turnpike, Horace Harding Blvd., Francis Lewis Blvd, Utopia Pwky, 73rd Avenue, Northern Blvd, Hillside Avenue, Jamaica Avenue/Jericho Tpke to name a few. The usual time for my rides is anywhere in between 8 PM and 1 AM, although I occasionally ride late afternoons on weekends if traffic is light.

+

Ti is super, although
its hugely expensive and you have to factor metal fatigue , bent hanger ect on a used frame.

I'd go new in steel or aluminum

Bought many parts from PricePoint, including lots of Sette stuff

For your height, checkout 56cm
http://www.pricepoint.com/detail/22589-180_SETXN1-278-Frames--/Sette-Xion-Alloy-Road-Frame.htm

edit: Keep in mind you'll likely need new headset & front derailleur (31.8mm Clamp), possibly seatpost

I've owned and ridden aluminum, carbon, and steel framed bikes. My only aluminum framed bikes these days are my full-suspension Cannondale and my commuter bike with its cushy 32 section tires that absorb the bumps nicely as well as flexible wheels that helps, too. I had bought one aluminum frame bike a few years ago and it jarred me so badly that I sold it within three months. Yeah, I know, that was only one example and it wasn't a high end bike, but, still, I've never experienced as harsh a ride as that frame/bike. I've since moved those same components to a full carbon frame/fork and it's a lot nicer of a ride, though it doesn't have the bottom bracket stiffness that I would like. At least the bike isn't trying to beat me up as I ride down the road on what looks like glass smooth pavement. With that aluminum frame I could feel every pebble or imperfection that the tires rolled over and that would fatigue me before my engine gave out on a long ride. When I switched to the carbon frame I could ride longer due to the increase in comfort, though the aluminum frame was faster in a short 11 mile hill loop I used to ride during my lunch breaks.

My favorite bike in terms of road feel and liveliness is my old Colnago International made from good old Columbus Chrome Moly steel complete with chrome fork. The bike weighs 5 lbs more than the carbon wonder bike, but, it's just so enjoyable to ride. I do grab the carbon bike when I'm going to ride lots of hills due to the reduced weight that I have to carry when climbing.

With regards to frame fit, it's important for the bike to fit you properly. You can sort of fudge it when selecting a frame by going with a longer or shorter stem and positioning the saddle further forwards or back, but, when you get a bike to fit properly everything just works. You don't get back or neck pain from being stretched out from riding a bike that's too large or cramped from riding a bike that's too small. Also, keep in mind that a small frame with a monster stem won't work as well as a properly fitted frame because the top tube height is too low and you'll be on the tops to get comfortable or it'll be like riding a funny bike when you're in the drops. Fitting a shorty stem to a frame that is too large places the handlebars too high for a good riding position and the saddle will have to be moved forward to allow you to reach. Having said that, I'm 5' 7.5" and I ride road bikes that have a top tube, measured center to center, of about 53cm. Combined with a 10cm stem I get around 63cm of reach. This roughly equates to frames that are 52 to 53cm measured center to top (IMHO, this is the proper way to measure a frame: from the center of the bottom bracket to the top of the top tube in a conventional road bike frame and to the top of a virtual top tube on compact or sloping top tube frames). My buddy is 5' 11" and he prefers bikes with a 66cm reach so he rides bikes with a 11cm stem and either 56 or 57cm frames. The larger frames tend to be more comfortable because it raises the handlebars 1cm over their smaller equivalents. Even so, I place a short stack of spacers under my stem to give me slightly more rise than that.

I have two Habanero Ti frames: a classic road frame with Dura-Ace 9-speed triple and a cross frame with Dura-Ace 10-speed triple. The road frame is now ~11 yrs old with about 15k miles and the Cross about ~5 yrs old with ~5k miles and both look as good as new. Both have carbon forks - an Ouzo Pro on the road (with a 1" head tube!) and an Alpha-Q CX20 on the cross. I'm 6', 200# and I've been riding carbon forks since the '80s and haven't had a single problem (other than the original Ritchey fork on the cross that was so flexible it was scary).

Ti frames will last a lifetime - and they're very comfortable to ride (depending on geometry and fit, of course). I'll never go back to carbon (which I rode during the '90s) or steel (the '70s and '80s) and Al's typical harshness doesn't interest me (though my MTB is Al but I rarely ride it). My steel bikes would rust out from under me (I sweat like a pig) and frames would only last a couple of seasons. The CF frame, a Specialized Allez, finally broke after I passed it on to a friend (shifter boss broke off), maybe 10 yrs old and 10k miles. Specialized did replace the frame but with a lower end Al Allez with no fork (and a proprietary headset).

The Habbys aren't the lightest but they're truly "no noodle" - the BB area is very stiff (no chain ring rub) but the overall ride is much more comfortable than my previous bikes. Cross bike is 19.5# dressed out; road about a lb lighter. Habbys are also reasonably priced compared to, say, a Seven ($WOW$). I have no problems with riding a "no name" bike since I'm somewhat of a bike retro-grouch. In fact, the road frame is sterilized with no decals.

As mentioned earlier, another thing to consider is the frame geometry: do you want a twitchy race frame with steep head and seat tube or something more laid back and comfortable? Your Raleigh is probably more like the latter.

I bought the cross frame primarily as a "do it all" bike for everything from centuries to crushed limestone trails. I just swap wheels for trail vs (mostly) road. The cross frame is a custom with custom head tube length, seat tube angle, etc. that I had Mark at Habanero build. I ride traditional Mavic O4CD rims, 3x spokes, traditional hubs, and 25c tires on the road for even more comfort - I don't race and I've had enough of twitchy, steep geometry, frames. Only issue with cross frames (not just Habby) is very finicky cantilever brake setup and the brakes still don't work as well as the 20+ yr old Dura-Ace road brakes on my road frame. I never got linear pulls to work, even with Travel Agents. I wish someone would make long-pull brifters.

The road frame has boutique wheels (Velomax?) and 23c tires and is still fun to ride but I should probably sell it since the cross has mostly replaced it but, well, I just can't let the road frame go. I do average about 1 mph faster on the road frame but I really don't care about that any more ;-)

Disclaimer: No affiliation with Habanero, just a satisfied customer; there's certainly many other Ti choices. And there's a discount for subsequent frame purchases

A couple thoughts:

1. Your cracked steel rame can be re-welded by anyone who knows how to weld thin-wall steel tubes. Titanium is impossible to weld except in an oxygen-free environment, which requires specialized equipment.

2. Titanium is very springy; you'll probably want some carbon in the mix to dampen high-frequency vibrations. There are plenty of carbon seatposts, handlebars, and cranks on the market, but my favorites are made by Easton.

3. Salsa makes a road/cross titanium frame with a cromoly fork and disc brake mounts front and rear. That's the one I plan to get next year when I've paid off my massive investment in furniture. Disc brakes may be heavy, but you'll never wear out your rims or blow a tire due to heat buildup. I plan to avoid rim brakes from here forward.

I can't really add a lot that hasn't already been said and I have no experience with titanium frames. But as I understand things there are good titanium frames and not so good titanium frames. Titanium tends to be noodly but the better frame manufacturers can compensate for this somewhat to improve ride and performance. You get what you pay for. All my bikes are steel frame, I love the ride and with reasonable care a steel frame will last a lifetime. There is a rustproofing product made for steel frames that you spray inside the tubes (can't remember the name of it now).
I think the most important thing you can do is get a proper fitting on your new bike. If it isn't comfortable to ride you won't ride it. If possible take it for a test ride also.
Bicycling Magazine has an excellent and informative forum where you can probably get more information than you wanted to know.

Phil

regarding fixing steel frames: a framebuilder can certainly replace broken dropouts or tubes. Whether or not you should do it is just a matter of the economics... i.e. what is the frame worth to you, what are your options for a new/different frame, and what will it cost to replace the tube or dropout and repaint the frame. I've got two custom frames from local builders, and would go back to them for estimates for any repairs I might need.

I think there are framebuilders who work in Ti nowadays, and the welding equipment is not that hard to get or use. The bigger issue is just working with titanium, although stainless steel is also hard to work with, and it has gotten popular for use in lugs, fork crowns, etc. The issues related to ti frame repair shouldn't dissuade anyone from buying a ti frame (and some ti frames do fail).

disk brakes are good if you spend a lot of time in wet/muddy/sloppy conditions. I've got disc brakes on my commuter, and having used it for a few years, I'd rather use rim brakes. I just don't spend enough time in wet conditions to warrant the extra weight, the tweakiness, etc. I did throw out the Avid BB5 caliper on the rear wheel and replace it with a BB7, and that's a small improvement, and will do the same on the front soon-ish.

Ti is certainly attractive if you are looking for a rugged frame. You can get a ti fork, but it's not a great material for that purpose. A framebuilder called Black Sheep does make ti forks for their ti frames, though.

Steve K.

I'd go with a high quality steel frame. When made right with good steel, like Reynolds 631, a steel frame can approach the lightness of titanium and is far stronger than aluminum. Steel will also give you a great ride quality that even Ti can't beat. I've never owned a Ti bike, but as a bike shop mechanic in college, rode plenty of them. They might not be like this anymore, but Ti frames feel soft and whippy to me. That might be a plus for commuting and long distance rides though.

My current main bike is a 2006 Specialized Sirrus Sport, heavily upgraded, but it has an aluminum frame. Even with new shorts, seat, etc., once I hit the 15-20 mi. mark, my back and butt are in agony. I'm going to get a new steel bike as soon as I can afford it.

Nothing wrong with steel from either a strength, weight, or ride quality standpoint, and it is way less expensive than Ti. The issue for me is rust. Like mhejl, I sweat like a pig when riding, both because it's almost always humid here in NYC, and I usually ride like I'm going for the yellow jersey. My bikes have a tendency to get chipped paint from road debris and also the salt NYC uses in winters. Right now I'm just looking for a low-maintenance, lifetime bike. Ti fits the bill as near as I can tell but it is pricey. I'm actually leaning heavily towards the bike I linked to earlier:

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/lechamp_ti_10.htm

I'm still on the fence about the carbon fork though, and after mhejl's post, I'm also giving Habanero serious consideration. Their site gives the option of substituting a steel fork for carbon if you want.

i havnt ridden for years, but when i did i had a steel fork fail due to rust. reynolds something tubing custom built frame many years ago. but back then cars also rusted. these days a quality japanese made car just isnt going to rust. maybe the same goes for bike frames. modern paints and maybe a zinc based undercoat might just have just keep rust at bay for years. not quite sure how they would coat the inside of the tubes.

i live on the coast and my roof guttering is steel thats been galvanised with a thin zinc layer and then painted and its 30 years old and no rust.

before i bought a steel bike again i would need to be satisfied that the full extent of modern anti corrosion paint technology had been applied, then i would be happy.

cheers

jtr1962 said:

I'm still on the fence about the carbon fork though, and after mhejl's post, I'm also giving Habanero serious consideration. Their site gives the option of substituting a steel fork for carbon if you want.

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Were you really meaning, "airless" tires? I hope not.

Don't be stuck on race frames, do accept your age, do consider cross frames, 25mm+ tires, fender mountings, maybe even a hub dynamo so you have an excuse to play around with lighting even more.

Though it isn't rust, corrosion will also be an issue with Ti because you'll have other elements contacting; use plumber's teflon band and anti-seize component where suitable. Flood the inside parts of any new steel fork with a suitable anti-corrosive fluid, but don't put any friction-reducing substances on steering (or braking) components if you're not absolutely sure what you're doing.

Marcturus said:

Were you really meaning, "airless" tires? I hope not.

Click to expand...

I've been running airless tires on the Raleigh for 4800 miles. Now that they're thoroughly broken in they actually seem better than pneumatics in terms of rolling resistance, and nearly almost as good in terms of ride quality. They also appear to last way longer. It looks like when all is said and done I'll be getting at least 10,000+ miles out of the rear, and possibly 20,000 miles out of the front. So yes, I am putting airless on whatever bike I buy. After suffering the grief of constant flats which nearly caused me to throw in the towel cycling, they're a godsend. No way would I ever go back to pneumatics. I know airless tires have gotten a bad rap, but the new ones are as good as air, particularly those with high-rebound elastomer (only available in wider tire sizes like 38mm, unfortunately). See my thread on the subject.

I already have another bike (my late father's 3-speed actually) which I could put a hub dynamo on and use when I'm in the mood for a more upright riding position, and not in a big hurry. I am going to make myself a nice lighting set up for whatever new set of wheels I buy, likely powered by the four DeWalt 26650 cells I bought just for that purpose. I need a decent light-99% of my riding is in the dark. Right now I'm using an old halogen light which I modded with an R4 3A XP-G running at about 700 mA. Bright, but you know the old saying about how you can never have enough lumens. My planned light will put out 2000+ lumens. I'm also going to make a much brighter rear tail flasher.

My strategy, if I were you, would be to develop a list of all the bike companies with great warranties and go from there. Off the top of my head, Cannondale is one I would look at seriously. Their aluminum frames are my favorite and I have a Synapse SL carbon frame of theirs that has such a great ride for the money. BH was my other favorite carbon production frame.

I have a Moots (I live in CO and wanted to support the local builder) and it is awesome! I am amazed at the level of stiffness and response to power input for its degree of vertical forgiveness. Ti is expensive in the form of a bike frame. Your decision is not an easy one.

Good luck!

RkyMtn

jtr1962 said:

So yes, I am putting airless on whatever bike I buy.

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Thank you, and okay, I read up on the "airless" tire thing. Having to tighten bolts a bit more because the tires are harder sounds scary. I doubt the differing vibrations would directly harm the right chainstay though, steel or not. However old the idea of selling airless tires may be, I am still amazed that the current manufacturer hasn't been doing a better job of marketing these "new and improved" airless tires.

I won't brag to you about having extremely few tire problems by not optimizing for weight or frontal area, but carefully selecting my tires, routes, and placement on the roadway. Why? First, we don't ride in the same area, and second, I'd probably get two punctures the next morning!

Marcturus said:

Thank you, and okay, I read up on the "airless" tire thing. Having to tighten bolts a bit more because the tires are harder sounds scary. I doubt the differing vibrations would directly harm the right chainstay though, steel or not. However old the idea of selling airless tires may be, I am still amazed that the current manufacturer hasn't been doing a better job of marketing these "new and improved" airless tires.

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The right chainstay cracked about 12 years ago, long before I even heard of airless tires. I'm amazed my half-baked repair has actually held up as long as it has. And I agree that they should do a better job marketing airless tires. Someone actually won 5 triathlons using the exact same tire I'm using-see here. After almost 5000 miles, it's almost freaky how good these things roll. A big part of why some people try airless tires, then give up, is because they do require a rather long break-in period to reach their ultimate potential. It took about 50 miles for my tires to start feeling halfway normal. After that, it probably took another 1000 for their rolling resistance to match the level of pneumatics. Now it's all gravy-it seems they keep getter better and better as the miles pile on. I'll be doing a 5000 mile update in that thread, hopefully this month if I hit the mark (193 miles to go until 5000).

I won't brag to you about having extremely few tire problems by not optimizing for weight or frontal area, but carefully selecting my tires, routes, and placement on the roadway. Why? First, we don't ride in the same area, and second, I'd probably get two punctures the next morning!

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Well, we seem to have a lot of glass on the roads here. Also, the generally poor road conditions don't help, either, resulting in pinch flats if tires aren't inflated properly. Punctures do seem to go in spurts though. I recall sometimes riding for a month with no problems, thinking this is great, and then I'd get three the following week.