Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

[Nake]

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

Because at 550mAh it will emit around 190 lumens so out of the front end will come around what, 120, 130 lumens?

Here's some lumen figures for a PD with a Seoul to maybe ease your mind about swapping one in.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/1913802&postcount=1

 

[woodrow]

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

This continues to be a good discussion. Most of my money will always be spent on the latest and greatest. I also think the latest and greatest fuels cpf. If we only reviewed SF leds...the reviews section would be pretty short.

That being said, I know I am not a normal customer and I think SF will most likely do pretty well with the G2L and 6pL. They are much less expensive than a L5 and still have decent output.

I hope, like many others here we will see a cutting edge light from SF again, in the mean time, there are plenty of other companies making this minute's brightest light. I am sure many of those companies will do all right too.

 

[KROMATICS]

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

Surefire updated some of the better selling models first and these models happen to sell well because of their long runtime. This doesn't mean they are not going to update the rest of the line including their higher-output lights. Of course they are! They have different lights for different needs. They just can't update everything all at once. Just remember they sell lights to people who actually need to use them in real life situations so they are always going to try to find a happy medium between brightness and runtime. If you want the brightest LED light possible to put on your shelf there are plenty of custom lights available right here on this messageboard.

 

[MarNav1]

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

Yep!

 

[Illum]

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

Well, I think if you really need 100lm plus, you shoud look at incans.

my thoughts exactly...but as much as there have been improvements in LEDs, battery technology [volume/capacity ratio] have essentially stayed the same, 100+ lumen over a practical duration of time is only possible in the realm of LEDs....sure theres 100 lumen incans, but your either going to need extra batteries or to size your workload within the runtimes of existing cells.
LEDs can easily boast 1-2 hour runtimes with lesser heat while saying the same with stability and ease of regulation.

but not incandescents...so far the surefire A2 gets the "fail safe" "regulated" and "pocket sized" right...but not "extended runtime" "100+ lumen output" "low heat"...as somethings are impossible, impractical, that sorts

I agree completely with you that in most user/field applications your not going to need that much light. Again, I'm speaking only for myself on this matter [I'm a runtime freak, I can't help it

My blinding light is basically a dedicated flash for an old pentax MX, does it have a long runtime? sure it does, is it practical for illumination, no

 

[Bolster]

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

Answer: Yes! Just like General Motors was really smart to stay out of the high-MPG battle, and stuck with big SUVs. (Just kidding!!!)

 

[tja343]

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

Answer: Yes! Just like General Motors was really smart to stay out of the high-MPG battle, and stuck with big SUVs. (Just kidding!!!)

Nice lol, very true, only if they would have known that gas prices would rise... lol (inflation, and greedy gas companies. it's all about the $$$ now days)

 

[daveman]

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

I wouldn't know if SF is smart by staying behind the technology curve, but it certainly isn't smart enough to earn my dollars with its Lux V products. I wouldn't buy SF's Lux V lights even if they are cheaper than those DX toys (sorry DX, but SOME of the lights you stock are just ).

 

[ViReN]

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

Than I had the thought... Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "Best throw...best tint...best...whatever..." match between all the other light manufactures. I think they might really be. I love my P3DR100, but wonder what the Q5 version is like. You buy a 6pl or g2l and that will most likely be the same 6pl or g2l you will buy a year from now.

Don't get me wrong, I love the "cutting edge" I am just starting to smile at Surefire's (possible...I am only guessing here) decision to avoid it all.

That way M*G Lite is smartest.. waiting for the uber led's to come out.

 

[ugrey]

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

The emperor is a genius, just look at his new clothes. They are extremely bright. We all agree on this, don't we?







Of course I just think he looks a little naked..............and dim.

 

[who]

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

I do not own any of Don's custom lights, but did enough reading to have a great appreciation for them, from an engineering point of view and more. I now realize he is even a better writer:twothumbs, who can express opinions calmly and clearly, a huge contrast with any enraged and non factual opinion.

Being an older guy, I always ask myself this question "Do you want to be right or be happy?" Of course, happiness is paramount.
Luckily, they tend to go together. Being wrong and unhappiness will make people angry. Common, it is only a flashlight. People are dying in Iraq, hungry in many parts of the world and much more. Please see the light and go shine a little love around.

Many things have been said about Surefire, I do not need to repeat them here. Just a few high level points:

• "Pushing the envelop" is good, there will be a trickle-down effect down the road. The 6P, L2, L4, A2, U2, Kroma are just a few examples when they first came out. Just look at the A2, a significant piece of engineering accomplishment.
• Putting the highest bin LED of the moment in a metal tube is NOT "pushing the envelop". That good job has been done by the LED companies, not the low-cost flashlight makers.
• A balance of Yin and Yang (runtime and brightness) is always more desirable

I have owned about 30 Surefires and Alephs, others, a few customs, AND ~100 Fenix, LP, and Chinese lights. So I do have enough data sample to make a personal evaluation.

 

[Monocrom]

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

Flashlight brand loyalty is like religion.

Sadly, quite true. :thumbsdow

Surefire and Fenix are completely different flashligh companies. One offers the latest & greatest when it comes to output. The other offers bullet-proof designs that have been out there long enough to earn a reputation for extreme reliability.

Just pick which one matters most to you. For me, I don't want the latest & greatest and unproven technology as far as reliability is concerned. I want something that I can bury in a muddy grave, leave it there for 3 years, dig it up.... And it's still going to work! I want a light that will only die if I tape a lit stick of dynamite to it!

Okay, maybe a bit over the top. But you get the point I was making. Uber Brightness is indeed important to me. But not at the cost of reliability. But that's just me.

If you desire the latest & greatest, that's great! But I don't look down my nose at those CPFers who want the new stuff all the time. And I would appreciate the same curtesy to be returned.

 

[woodrow]

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

That way M*G Lite is smartest.. waiting for the uber led's to come out.

You were joking.....right? I like the statement by another cpf'er...I loosly quote," Maglight is coming out with a new led...hopefully it will be spectacular.. or if not at least mediocere...either would be a great improvement."

As to incans being the right choice if you need over 100 lumans... maybe if you are a modder. I just bought a 4D mag to compare my Tiablo to... It makes me REALLY love the Tiablo...to quote another cpf'er..."how can anything so large somehow not be brighter?"

Back to the topic. At least SF's new lights are basicly farily priced. They are not trying to sell them for $200 plus. I think with $60-80 price tags and SF's reputation they will do decently well. I did notice that the $500 titans are doing incredibly well. It makes me hope that SF will make another "great" led light. Again, if the cost is justifiable, people will buy it.

 

[Monocrom]

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

Back to the topic. At least SF's new lights are basicly farily priced. They are not trying to sell them for $200 plus. I think with $60-80 price tags and SF's reputation they will do decently well. I did notice that the $500 titans are doing incredibly well. It makes me hope that SF will make another "great" led light. Again, if the cost is justifiable, people will buy it.

I found the cost of an L5 to be justifiable.... so I bought one.

 

[woodrow]

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

Sadly, quite true. :thumbsdow

Surefire and Fenix are completely different flashligh companies. One offers the latest & greatest when it comes to output. The other offers bullet-proof designs that have been out there long enough to earn a reputation for extreme reliability.

Just pick which one matters most to you. For me, I don't want the latest & greatest and unproven technology as far as reliability is concerned. I want something that I can bury in a muddy grave, leave it there for 3 years, dig it up.... And it's still going to work! I want a light that will only die if I tape a lit stick of dynamite to it!

Okay, maybe a bit over the top. But you get the point I was making. Uber Brightness is indeed important to me. But not at the cost of reliability. But that's just me.

If you desire the latest & greatest, that's great! But I don't look down my nose at those CPFers who want the new stuff all the time. And I would appreciate the same curtesy to be returned.

You have a good point. Yet I wonder, which would be more likely to survive a 30+' drop...a 6pl or a P3D? I know the SF has thicker alluminum and glass...but it is also heavier. The P3D's light weight might make the force of physics damage it less.

It would take 3-5 of each light, dropping off the same point and hitting the same point for the contest to be even somewhat scientific. We could also throw in some LP's and...well if all of us pitched in...a bunch of lights. Again, I am not saying the Surefire is not a more stout light, I just wonder if its weight would work against it in a large fall.

 

[woodrow]

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

I found the cost of an L5 to be justifiable.... so I bought one.

I would never put down the L5 or L6 - trust me...I almost bought one the other day myself. I only ment to say that I believe the new lights are fairly priced. Neither is in a L5's body, nor did they price it like a L5. Sorry I did not make my self more clear...I posted the other day that while I love my LP's and Tiablo, none of them came close to feeling as bank vaultish as the L5.

 

[:)>]

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

I think SF is very smart in avoiding opening communication with CPF and I think is is unfortunate as well, for those with a reasonable interest as well as respect and understanding; minority that they may be.

I agree 100% that Surefire is wise to avoid OPEN communications with CPF; and I suspect that there are those on CPF that they do communicate with.

I also know for sure that they are aware of CPF and grateful for the support of many on the forum, I was wowed by their generosity at the Shot Show in Florida last year; they treated CPF'rs that the knew and didn't know like absolute VIP's and shared a great amount of information regarding their companies direction and philosophy in the process.

I believe that they are wise for abstaining from open dialogue about their company because, unfortunately, there are too many people who believe that just because they are consumers that they should have an inordinate amount of influence on Surefire and access to the company; it just plain makes matters worse when non-consumers demand the same priveleges.

Regarding the question of whether or not they are smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" LED battle I say that they are but I also don't believe that they do. Let me clarify this a little:

I believe that they are smart to refrain from advertising LED's instead of their flashlights. Any manufacturer can pop a new LED into a flashlight and incur only a mild cost for doing this. Unless Surefire was able to cut an exclusive deal with Lumileds, Cree or Seoul, it would be pointless to say that their lights are better than company X's lights on the basis of the LED alone (or as the primary basis) because any other brand could match the grade of LED at any time. It is far better to say that all of the things around the LED, the durability of the package and the inovation of the package are the reason for their products superiority. Now, if they cut an exclusive deal with the manufacturer of the best LED, then that would change things a bit but even in this case, I would refrain from adversising about the bin of the LED used. I know for sure that I would never consider purchasing a Fenix P1D-CE w/a P4 when the Q5's are just a little more expensive; I am pretty sure that 4sevens could add some insight into this problem. I even hold off on Fenix purchases because I know that there is a newer, brighter light right around the corner... that can't help the sales too much.

Here is why I don't believe that they do not currently or have ever stayed away from the newest and brightest LED's: Surefire has always purchased and used the best bins in their lights and I am certain that they continue to do so. I am pretty sure that the Cree LED's in the E1L, E2L and L1 will continue to get better as the better bins become available the only thing that remains to be seen is whether or not the lights will be come brighter as the better bins are used or if they will get longer running instead.

So to summarize, I believe that Surefire is wise to not advertise the LED's that are used in their lights but to advertise their lights performance. They are slower to market with new lights than I would like, but their business model appears to be innovation, reliability and a very diverse product offering. Oh yeah, innovation is much more than putting the newest LED in a light.

 

[xiaowenzu]

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

My L5 was measured in an Integrating Sphere at a University. The result was 140 real lumens. Eventhough the package stated 100 lumens. That's why SureFire is AHEAD of anyone.

That's not a surprise to hear, since Surefire measures actual light output compared to most Chinese makers, such as Fenix, etc which only measures at the emitter. Even though some use higher output LEDs such as the Q5's they are still not clearly brighter as discerned by the naked eye in practical use, because our eyes perceive light logarithmically, and they only provide 30 lumens extra, which is peanuts.

 

[Monocrom]

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

Sorry I did not make my self more clear...I posted the other day that while I love my LP's and Tiablo, none of them came close to feeling as bank vaultish as the L5.

Thanks for clarifying. Must admit, bank vaultish is a great way of describing the light.

As for what's more likely to survive the type of fall mentioned, I honestly think the 6PL would stand a better chance than a P3D. The 6PL is overbuilt, the P3D isn't. Think of it this way, (in terms of accidents) which is better: A new car with crumple zones that's lighter than an older model. Or a car from the '70s that's heavy and built like a tank?

 

[Vikas Sontakke]

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

I do not own any of Don's custom lights, but did enough reading to have a great appreciation for them, from an engineering point of view and more. I now realize he is even a better writer:twothumbs, who can express opinions calmly and clearly, a huge contrast with any enraged and non factual opinion.
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Aboslutely agree!!

I have owned about 30 Surefires and Alephs, others, a few customs, AND ~100 Fenix, LP, and Chinese lights. So I do have enough data sample to make a personal evaluation.

I thought Don made Aleph;

Confused ...

- Vikas