Pila IBC and AW´s LiNiCo batteries

[Goplefinnfrands]

Hello..

This is my first post. I´m totally newbie when it comes to flashlights, batteries and chargers.
I´ve done a lot of reading about all three subjects and safety when it comes to batteries, but realise I still have a lot to learn. I´ve spend a LOT of hours reading threads in this forum and gathered a lot of information! Nice.. :twothumbs

I have a question; I´ve bought a Pila IBC-charger because of the many satisfied people that have it in this forum. Now I´m thinking about buying some of AW´s 18650-2900 mAh batteries. The question is, does they fit together?

I´ve been reading this thread: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=201323
and in section 3 it doesn´t say anything about charging those LiNoCo-batteries that AW sells.

Hope you will help a newbie getting started in a safe way! Thankyou... :twothumbs

 

[tre]

I think that thread needs to be updated. You will be fine with the Pila and AW or Redilast 2900 batteries (though they will take forever to charge).

 

[Goplefinnfrands]

Okay, so no problems in that set-up..

Maybe a stupid question, but I´m new to all this stuff - why will it take forever to charge??

 

[tandem]

Not a stupid question at all Goplefinnfrands -- AW 18650 2900 mAh cells are large capacity cells. If that cell is quite fully discharged, bringing it back will take many hours in the Pila which has a charging current of 600ma.

A rough rule of thumb shamelessly borrowed from Silverfox:

[FONT="Courier New"]1.5 times 2900 mAh
--------------------   = 7.25 hours
     600ma[/FONT]

That's the downside of the Pila charger and probably any safe cradle style charger -- they charge at a low fixed rate in order to be usable with smaller sized (lower capacity) cells, and this translates to longer charging time when dealing with large cells.

The alternative to this is trading off one type of convenience (a familiar paradigm, the drop in charger) for another type (time savings but a little more attention to detail) with a hobby charger where you can dial up the current significantly but still remain within a safe charging rate and thus reduce your charging time dramatically.

With the Pila and other chargers like it, if you want to stick to a sane safety regimen and not charge while unattended and while you are asleep, you'll need to find a 6 - 8 hour chunk of time to recharge near fully empty cells.

Fortunately li-ion cells tolerate top-up charges well so if you don't need to discharge all the way for your usage, you can take advantage of that property to cut down the regular charging time.

 

[Goplefinnfrands]

Now I get it! :thumbsup:

Is there some hobbycharger you can recommend, (uasability/price) - then I can do some reading about it??

Thankyou very much for your time... :twothumbs

 

[CKOD]

Now I get it! :thumbsup:

Is there some hobbycharger you can recommend, (uasability/price) - then I can do some reading about it??

Thankyou very much for your time... :twothumbs

I'd recommend the revolectrix cellpro multi-4 Its pretty simple to use, you can get the basic version (just the charger ) for $55 I believe. It's useable with Li-po, LiFe (Called A123 on the charger), nickel and lead chemestries right out of the box, it has an automatic charge rate I.E. you set it to "1.0C" and it ramps up the current till the charger thinks its at 1.0C by the rate the voltage is changing, usually its conservative in its values, but you can also manually set the charge current on the charger. It charges just though the balance leads, no nead to hook up the main leads of a pack, so wiring of a charge cradle is easy, just one connector. And from what I read, the FMA direct support is great. I saw an anecdote on an RC forum, someone suggested a feature to be added in the firmware, and within a few days, a new firmware was released with that feature added :eek:.

You'll need the usb interface cable to update the firmware of course, but that also lets you fine tune it to whatever parameter you want, and also allows datalogging, and if you do a manual 1C charge on a particular cell type you can setup the "fuel" parameters so the charger can show you the "% fuel" level in the battery, and it uses this for a more accurate auto charge rate too.

Jam packed with features if you want them but out of the way if you dont, built in safety, so you cant tell it to charge your li cells to 4.5v/cell. I was and still am very impressed with it. Too bad its only 4S, though they do make the cellpro 10S which I hope would have similar features.

 

[Battery Guy]

Jam packed with features if you want them but out of the way if you dont, built in safety, so you cant tell it to charge your li cells to 4.5v/cell. I was and still am very impressed with it. Too bad its only 4S, though they do make the cellpro 10S which I hope would have similar features.

Curious to know if you can set a lower charge voltage for a lithium-ion cell. For example, can I set the upper voltage cut-off to 4.0 V with this charger, or will it always charge a conventional lithium-ion cell to 4.2 V?

Thanks for the detailed description. This sounds like a great charger for the money.

Cheers,
BG

 

[45/70]

Curious to know if you can set a lower charge voltage for a lithium-ion cell. For example, can I set the upper voltage cut-off to 4.0 V with this charger, or will it always charge a conventional lithium-ion cell to 4.2 V?

Most hobby chargers are limited to 3.6, 4.1, or 4.2 Volts, for Li-Ion chemistries anyway. If you move up the ladder to "real" hobby charges, as opposed to copies of other copies, some of the chargers such as SilverFox uses, like the top end Schulze's, may allow a custom "cut off" voltage, I'm not sure.

Dave

 

[CKOD]

Curious to know if you can set a lower charge voltage for a lithium-ion cell. For example, can I set the upper voltage cut-off to 4.0 V with this charger, or will it always charge a conventional lithium-ion cell to 4.2 V?

Thanks for the detailed description. This sounds like a great charger for the money.

Cheers,
BG

Yep! IIRC from the factory there is an option for generic Li-Po charging @4.2v, long life @ 4.1v, and a "storage" charge at 3.7 or 3.8v I believe (~50% "fuel", depending on the exact chemestry) With the charger control software you can spec:
Charge voltage, in .05V increments I believe
Charge current, in much finer increments then you can do with just the charger on its own.
C/x termination, you can make Li-ion, and lead acid batteries terminate at C/5, C/10, or C/20. -DeltaV is available for Nickel chemestries. However, you cant do a CC/peak CV/reduced float V charge for lead acid. (I.E. peak at 14.5, then after current drops to C/x, reduce voltage to 13.8)
Max time, the charge will terminate after however many hours, regardless of voltage or current.

There is a single step voltage adjustment for cold temperatures. (If ambient is below X, then change charge voltage by Y millivolts, just one adjustment though, no formula, or continual adjustment like would be ideal for lead acid batteries)

You can set the "repair" threshold voltage, where if the cells are below whatever voltage you set, it feeds them a low current for a short amount of time, to see if it comes back, or if the cell is *truly* hosed.

http://swm1.com/flying/FMA/Multi4/Multi4_review.html decent review.

Oh and a wiring harness with their balance connector on it is only $1.99 from fma direct, and it is a connector made by JST (probably not a "standard JST connector" like a lot of RC cars use, but it is made my the same company) and its available on digikey, so youre not completely reliant on FMA for proprietary connectors.

The USB adaptor cable has an FTDI usb-serial bridge chip on it, and its opto-isolated so no worries about blowing out USB ports from misbehaving power supplies. If you need a charger for 4S or less, and 4A or less charge current. This would definitely be a prime candidate.


Only negatives I have about it is the 1 button interface, which works, but would be a lot more intuitive with 3 or 4 buttons (up, down, select, back).

 

[Goplefinnfrands]

Thankyou very much, all of you. It´s great to get some qualified opinions! :thumbsup:

I´ll take a closer look at those hobby-chargers...

 

[45/70]

Yep! IIRC from the factory there is an option for generic Li-Po charging @4.2v, long life @ 4.1v, and a "storage" charge at 3.7 or 3.8v I believe (~50% "fuel", depending on the exact chemestry) With the charger control software you can spec:

Yeah, I forgot about the "storage charge" settings. These are typically ~3.3 Volts for LiFe, ~3.7 for LiCo, and ~3.8 Volts for LiPo. 4 Volts is not readily available on most cheap hobby chargers.

CKOD, I remember checking out the cellpro chargers during my quest for an inexpensive hobby charger. My impression was that they were just another Bantam clone, like all the rest. From what you're saying, it sounds like they may be a bit different.

I looked briefly at their site and a few of the manuals. They appear to not be much different than any of the other Bantam clones. I did not see any reference anywhere to changing the CV voltage for Li-Ion charging, other than the preset levels. Then again, I didn't look too hard, or for very long. I'll have to check it out in more detail sometime.

Dave

 

[CKOD]

...
I did not see any reference anywhere to changing the CV voltage for Li-Ion charging, other than the preset levels. Then again, I didn't look too hard, or for very long. I'll have to check it out in more detail sometime.

Dave

You cant change the voltage from the preset with just the charger, its something you can setup for one of the presets with the PC. The CCS is helpful enough that its not documented in depth, though it probably wouldn't hurt if it was.

Charge control, voltage is selectable in 5mV increments from 3.00 to 4.25 for the lithium cells, and the current can be adjusted from 5-1000mA in 5mA steps, and 1A to 4A in 50mA steps.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y204/CKOD/lights/a9b2a36e.png
balance options
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y204/CKOD/lights/7a6f9fea.png
Termination
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y204/CKOD/lights/703daacc.png
Cell detection and the "restore" settings
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y204/CKOD/lights/3930a9f2.png
safety tab
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y204/CKOD/lights/26ab943f.png

Each parameter you can click on the text on the left, and it will pop up a paragraph or so explaining that parameter if its not clear. You can have different settings for each of the preset slots in the charger.


In the rest of the main window there is an errors tab which will show you any potentially unsafe settings you have selected, and you're forced to fix them before you can send the new settings to the charger. Currently I have a "Flashlights" preset which is good for all my 18650 packs. And a few different lead-acid presets for when I was playing with some small SLA's. You program them in, and you can use them when its not hooked up to the computer, so it doesnt have to be constantly teathered.

 

[45/70]

Sounds interesting, CKOD. I'll have to look into these chargers some more. I really don't need another hobby charger, but you know how that goes.:)

Dave

 

[Flashlight Aficionado]

I just updated the Pila IBC Charger Compendium.

I PM'd AW and he said and I quote,

The Pila IBC charger is safe to charge the LiNiCoO2 2900mAh 18650s. Observe regular safety guidelines for LiCo cells is sufficient.

tandem - Thanks for the equation. I PM'd Silverfox, just to confirm. I added it to the Compendium.

 

[tandem]

tandem - Thanks for the equation. I PM'd Silverfox, just to confirm. I added it to the Compendium.

Cool.

And for Goplefinnfrands, I meant to mention in that equation example that the calculated time really does represent something of the worst case. You likely will not be discharging your li-ion cells that fully.

For example after running a Malkoff M61 off a single high capacity 18650 cell for over three hours the other day, output had in the last half hour to forty five minutes dropped to about 50% of starting. Time to switch cells. Next time I do that I'll measure the resting voltage to give you a more accurate picture of the level of cell discharge. Recharging the cell from that point took maybe three hours (sorry, didn't track it this time), certainly not 7. I'll track usage and charge a bit and report in here in the coming days.

Chances are whatever lights you are using will behave somewhat similarly with respect to discharge and therefore charge times ought not be a huge problem for you. Maybe others can step in with their experiences and observations.

The Pila charges a little faster, according to specs, than a number of the other cheaper cradle style chargers which can be found here and there. I feel more comfortable with the Pila and don't mind spending a little more for a greater and earned sense of assurance. I also don't feel that the Pila charge times are putting a crimp in my life at all.

That said I do plan on getting a hobby charger myself but as my current needs are met am taking my time before making a purchase. I want to find a unit that has a computer interface for either control or customization or reporting/charting or all of the above and that cellpro multi-4 CKOD brought up sounds interesting.

 

[Goplefinnfrands]

Yes you´re right, about the equation, I can see that clearly.

I received my first batteries today, 4 Trustfire batteries :sssh: (the good kind), and tried my Pila Charger for the first time.
I´m so glad that I spent so many hours reading this forum - thats why I got to know about the Pila, and bought that charger instead of that cheap 8$-charger, that I allready had in my basket - I thought a charger was just a charger, how stupid... :ohgeez:!! The Pila seems like a good and decent charger, that said, I´m totally new to flashlights, lithiums and so on. Still have a lot to learn!

I measured my batteries fresh of the charger, 4,198 and 4,197 - perfect!!

Anyway, time is not the most important issue, I´m out of work...

Thanks for your help, everybody.. :thumbsup:

 

[DuncanHynes]

Thanks for this info, I ordered 2900's from LightHound and was curious as to how long it may take to charge them. Going to plop to into an MD4 body for a WildCat 2.0 model!! :naughty: