I need to amplify my current.

georges80

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Yes, you could use the On/Off pin of the regulator, but I'd want to put at least a small circuit on it - resistor in series and then something like a TVS diode to protect the on/off pin from electrical transients. Automotive electrical systems are pretty nasty and transients can quickly kill semiconductors.

As is the rating of that regulator is 20V input which is hardly enough to deal with standard design practices for automotive electronics where you need circuits to withstand load dumps and transients (usually up to 60V) and reverse battery connection etc etc.

cheers,
george.
 

LukeA

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I don't see needing to run the LEDs at more than 35mA on high.

How many lumens do you think the incan bulbs put through that low-pass red filter? I guarantee it's not 330 (124 superfluxes @50mA)
 

apkarian100

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I guess it's a matter of taste. I know my NSX customer wants them really bright. So people might like them a little bit dim also.
I don't see needing to run the LEDs at more than 35mA on high.

How many lumens do you think the incan bulbs put through that low-pass red filter? I guarantee it's not 330 (124 superfluxes @50mA)
 

LukeA

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I guess it's a matter of taste. I know my NSX customer wants them really bright. So people might like them a little bit dim also.

To be honest your NSX customer sounds like an ***. He's not the one who has to look at the things. Everyone else on the road is, and it's very easy to get them unsafely bright.

I could give the appropriate standard (J586), but it's $61 through SAE.
 

apkarian100

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What I am going to do in the future possibly is attach a PWM to the brake lights so I can adjust it to a customer's preference. I admit, they are insanely bright.

I might go and play around with the LEDs also. I would like the brake lights to be somewhere between 40mA and 45mA
To be honest your NSX customer sounds like an ***. He's not the one who has to look at the things. Everyone else on the road is, and it's very easy to get them unsafely bright.

I could give the appropriate standard (J586), but it's $61 through SAE.
 

apkarian100

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You have a PM.
To be honest your NSX customer sounds like an ***. He's not the one who has to look at the things. Everyone else on the road is, and it's very easy to get them unsafely bright.

I could give the appropriate standard (J586), but it's $61 through SAE.
 

-Virgil-

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You need to consider the consequences (was Re: I need to amplify my current)

I guess it's a matter of taste. I know my NSX customer wants them really bright. So people might like them a little bit dim also.

No, it really isn't a matter of taste. It's a matter of safety and of law. These aren't toys we're talking about, they're safety devices critical to crash avoidance. No matter what your NSX customer (who probably knows very little about automotive lighting and crash avoidance) may think he wants, no matter how much cash he's throwing at you to build him a pair of what he seems to consider cool playtoys, a vehicle's signal and presence lights (park, turn, brake, marker) must work the way they're supposed to work, or they're unsafe. Brighter is not necessarily better.

Brake lights and red rear turn signals need to put out between 80 and 300 candela straight back between 5° left and 5° right, at least 40 candela between 10° left and right, at least 70cd straight back between 5° up and 5° down, and there are other intensity requirements at other points in the beam (the requirements are structurally identical for amber rear turn signals; only the intensity values differ). And the ratio between the bright red brake mode and the dim red tail mode needs to be at least 5:1 at the primary points and at least 3:1 at the secondary points.

And not only is it crucial that the intensity be within the proper limits through the entire relevant range of vertical and horizontal angles to convey the correct message quickly and unambiguously to observers at any angle to your vehicle (not just straight in front of or behind the signal), and not only must the intensity ratio between bright and dim modes be correct at all angles (for combination brake/tail or park/turn lamps), but the effective projected luminous lens area must not be reduced below the legal minimum. EPLLA refers to the amount of lens area actually significantly lit up when the lighting device is active. You might have a brake lamp with a total lens area of 64 square centimeters, but if you stick a 4cm-by-3cm array of LEDs in there, your EPLLA is going to be only about 12 square centimeters, not nearly enough to meet the standard.

All of these requirements are to make sure the lights do their job and convey their message clearly in all ambient conditions (day, night, rain, shine) without dangerous glare to those you're sharing the road with. Just looking at homemade lights and saying "Yep, they look about right" or "Wow, they're super-duper bright, just like my customer wants 'em!" doesn't cut it, especially not with insurance adjustors, judges or juries…remember, you are putting yourself squarely within the chain of liability when your homemade car lights contribute to a crash. If you are smart, and you don't have a few tens of millions of dollars' worth of appropriate liability insurance, once you complete the lamps you'll want to have them tested for photometric and physical compliance with all applicable provisions of Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 108. Calcoast is one of several reputable labs equipped to do such testing. That way, assuming your lamps pass, you are protected from the results of a crash that might call the vehicle's lighting system into question.

Note that FMVSS 108 is the regulation you need to comply with. It incorporates various provisions from various SAE standards, but the SAE standards themselves do not carry force of law, and compliance with any SAE standard does not guarantee compliance with the actual legal regulation.
 
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apkarian100

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Re: You need to consider the consequences (was Re: I need to amplify my current)

I think I forgot to mention that this custom's vehicle is a show car and that my product strictly carries a "For Offroad Use Only" title. So in this case, it is a toy not meant to see the road again.

I do make a dimmer version for the rest of the customers who actually want to drive their vehicles safely.
 

likeguymontag

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Re: You need to consider the consequences (was Re: I need to amplify my current)

I think I forgot to mention that this custom's vehicle is a show car and that my product strictly carries a "For Offroad Use Only" title. So in this case, it is a toy not meant to see the road again.

I do make a dimmer version for the rest of the customers who actually want to drive their vehicles safely.

It doesn't sound like you read and understood what Scheinwerfermann said. Read it again and ask yourself if you're comfortable with that kind of legal liability. Do you think that "For Offroad Use Only" is going to protect you? And how about the dimmer version? Are you actually manufacturing a product for people to install in their road-going vehicles? If I were you I'd find a product liability lawyer and have a chat about the ways in which you could and could not be held legaly liable for incidents involving your products. Then, and only then, should you feel comfortable selling these things.

Also, who buys an NSX and shows it but doesn't drive it? What a tool. Those things are meant to be driven.
 

apkarian100

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Re: You need to consider the consequences (was Re: I need to amplify my current)

The dim version will be a streetable version. You will easily be able to directly look into the LED taillights from 10ft. away without having to cover your eyes.
 

Greg G

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Back on topic and assuming the brightness will be legal.....what is a good way to set this up?

Some TVS diodes before the circuit to control surge... and some diodes (I don't know which kind, Scottky?)on the back end to prevent reverse electricity flow?
 

-Virgil-

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Re: You need to consider the consequences (was Re: I need to amplify my current)

I think I forgot to mention that this custom's vehicle is a show car and that my product strictly carries a "For Offroad Use Only" title. So in this case, it is a toy not meant to see the road again.

It is a common but completely mistaken notion that any kind of "off-road use only" labelling exempts the manufacturer or modifier of an item of regulated motor vehicle equipment (such as lighting equipment) from the requirements of the applicable Federal safety standards. The only items of motor vehicle equipment exempt from the safety standards are those which cannot readily be installed on or in a vehicle certified by its manufacturer as complying with the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards. If your modified lamps will fit the car you're making them for (which they certainly will, otherwise what's the point), then no label, document, box art, verbal or written agreement, or any other form of assertion that the equipment is for "off-road use only" shields you from liability, nor does it shield you from the civil penalties NHTSA can and does assess against those who produce or sell noncompliant lighting equipment. These penalties are presently up to $6,000 per violation per day. One noncompliant item = one violation. Make a pair of noncompliant lamps, that's two violations. How's your bank balance? Let's be honest with ourselves and each other, your customer is full of poo when he claims this is a "show car" not used on public roads. Is he paying you enough to cover the extreme liability you seem blissfully unaware that you're getting yourself into…? I'll bet he isn't. If you're smart, you'll insist on having the lamps fully compliance-tested before you release them to the customer. He sounds like he likes throwing money around, so he shouldn't have any qualms about paying for the tests, and then both he and you are covered.

I do make a dimmer version for the rest of the customers who actually want to drive their vehicles safely. The dim version will be a streetable version. You will easily be able to directly look into the LED taillights from 10ft. away without having to cover your eyes.

Does it comply with the applicable provisions of FMVSS 108? Do you even know…? Or is this "Ayup, you can look at it without squinting" the extent of your "testing"? If so, you will sooner or later get violently and expensively chewed up and spit out in or out of court. NHTSA has recently expanded their compliance enforcement division by a factor of five; they are going after lighting equipment violations more aggressively than ever before.
 

-Virgil-

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I will take the streetable lights to be tested for brightness.

"Brightness" is not one of the tests involved, and the testing must be carried out with a goniophotometer. You'd do well to call up Calcoast and spend a few minutes talking over the physical and photometric tests applicable to combination rear lamps. They're generally good about giving solid and complete compliance information whether or not you have them do any testing for you. Ask to speak to Mark or Douglas.
 

apkarian100

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Thanks for the info, I still want to make these lights and I will look into having these lights testing by a professional.

Just a quick question.....I have seen many many companies doing the same type of work I have been doing. Some of these companies have been around for at least 10 years or so and have not been shut down. Why aren't these companies still making these products? Aren't they aware of the dangers too?
"Brightness" is not one of the tests involved, and the testing must be carried out with a goniophotometer. You'd do well to call up Calcoast and spend a few minutes talking over the physical and photometric tests applicable to combination rear lamps. They're generally good about giving solid and complete compliance information whether or not you have them do any testing for you. Ask to speak to Mark or Douglas.
 
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likeguymontag

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Thanks for the info, I still want to make these lights and I will look into having these lights testing by a professional.

Just a quick question.....I have seen many many companies doing the same type of work I have been doing. Some of these companies have been around for at least 10 years or so and have not been shut down. Why aren't these companies still making these products? Aren't they aware of the dangers too?

Maybe the other companies do test their products and have a lawyer on retainer in case something comes up? Scheinwerfermann never said that it was likely you'd get sued. He only said that you weren't prepared to handle the consequences in the (probably unlikely, IMO) event that you are sued.

Just because the probability of negative consequences is low doesn't mean it's a good idea to go ahead with your product. If you play Russian roulette, the chance of death is 1/6 each time you play. I would consider that a "low" probability of death, but the consequences are high, so I won't be playing any time soon. For more on this idea, check Wikipedia for "expected return."
 

apkarian100

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Okay, I understand. He is just warning me of the possible consequences that could come from my endeavors.

Scheinwerfermann, thank you again for the useful info. I will take this newfound knowledge to heart.
 
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