18650 vs. LRB168A battery in WE Explorer

[recDNA]

The WE Explorer comes with an optional kit with a LRB168A battery and charger for $44. I have read in several threads here than we may use an 18650 instead or even 2 CR123. What is the difference between these battery types.

On the WE website the following warning is posted:

Note: This flashlight is designed to run with a rechargeable LRB168A battery, the use of other rechargeable batteries in not recommended. Only high quality Duracell, Energizer, Panasonic or Surefire CR123 batteries can be used in emergencies but Wolf Eyes does not recommend using CR123A batteries as a primary use battery due to the high power requirements needed to drive this flashlight.

Is this baloney? Every post I've read here says to use 18650 or 2 CR123?
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[VidPro]

lol, well they are selling a battery that works with it :-)

are you talking about the P7 or MC-E explorer, all the names and brands and evolutions , the explorer has had everything in it at one time.

the Quad High Powered led model, says it has a working voltage to 6V it probably is a AMC chip buck driver , the light is designed Around the 18650 , not a 2x123 light that will use a 18650.

2.0 amps on a fresh 18650 and 2.1 amps on fresh CR123s.

i THINK (but not sure yet) it would be good with 2x123 but NOT 2xRCR123 li-ion full voltage 123s or 8.4v max.
my favorite light graphing reviewer hasnt covered that one :-(

 

[recDNA]

The newest one that is currently on sale.

What IS an LRB168A battery? How is it different from an 18650? I mean they COULD sell their own 18650 yet chose this other battery type.

 

[VidPro]

The newest one that is currently on sale.

What IS an LRB168A battery? How is it different from an 18650? I mean they COULD sell their own 18650 yet chose this other battery type.

it is a protected 18650, it has mid range capacity, which might give it mid range power handling, but from the 2 tests i have seen of it i would not worry about having thier specific brand item, unless there is no warrenty without it.
with high powered quad LED light items like this though you WILL want to make sure that the protection you get on a cell is the ~4amp type not the ~2amp type, some 18650s have very low amperage protection, that when it comes to Quads you would prefer the higher one.

 

[recDNA]

it is a protected 18650, it has mid range capacity, which might give it mid range power handling, but from the 2 tests i have seen of it i would not worry about having thier specific brand item, unless there is no warrenty without it.
with high powered quad LED light items like this though you WILL want to make sure that the protection you get on a cell is the ~4amp type not the ~2amp type, some 18650s have very low amperage protection, that when it comes to Quads you would prefer the higher one.

How would I know? Do you suggest a particular 18650?

 

[mdocod]

The newest one that is currently on sale.

What IS an LRB168A battery? How is it different from an 18650? I mean they COULD sell their own 18650 yet chose this other battery type.

An LRB168A is an 18650 size lithium cobalt cell that has been shrink-wrapped with a wolf-eyes logo, a particular protection circuit (designed to work with wolf-eyes chargers), and a proprietary designation (LRBetc) that will prevent novice users from exploring other batter options thus increasing liability for wolf-eyes.

The concept "18650" is nothing more than a designation for size. It means 18mm diameter by 65mm length, the "0" usually represents the "cylindrical" concept. Or might just be a filler for a 5 digit standard..... either way, the concept of "18650" should not be considered a "specific" type of cell. The "18650" size cell is available in at least a half dozen different possible internal chemistries, each with different voltages and behaviors and applications. Some of those cells have special circuits on them called "PCBs" or "protection," most do not.

So.... what's important here, is to understand that wolf-eyes has given a name that within their product line, applies to a very specific size and cell chemistry meeting a particular standard with a particular label... If you want to venture off and try some cells that are similar internally but carry different labels, then that *may* be just fine if you understand the cell you need to replace. From the perspective of a flashlight manufacture, you have to understand, that not all 18650 "size" cells are going to work or be safe in any single particular consumer device. By creating a proprietary designation, a huge layer of protection is put in place (liability reduction), and I don't blame them one bit for it.

Consider the fact that most (maybe all? can't recall) wolf-eyes chargers use the protection circuit in the cell to terminate the charge. If an unprotected 18650 lithium cobalt cell were installed in one of these chargers, you would be explaining to your wife why the house is now a smoldering pile of ashes. (or husband/family/roomates/etc)

Educate yourself, do a lot of reading around here... all will make sense in time.

Short-Cut: AW brand protected li-ion cells use PCB circuits that meet the wolf-eyes standard for charge termination.

 

[recDNA]

Thanks for the great explanation. I'm trying out a MG PLI to try to save a few bucks over the WE. I'll need 18650's and I'll buy the AW sold on 4-7s.

Another thread seems to indicate the AW's Dual Bay Fast Charger AW-139 sold by 4-7's is a bad charger. Do you agree?

What would you suggest as a readily available safe alternative if the AW-139 is no good?

 

[mdocod]

Hello again,

I'm not a big fan of the WF-139 series of chargers. There have been several revisions of the charger over the years and only one of those revisions was sort-of OK.... problem is, it's impossible to know what you are going to get, some trickle charge after termination (leading to over-charge), all of them reach higher than ideal charge voltages during the charge. Reliability is a bit less than one would hope for...

There are 2 chargers that I like right now quite a bit. What's funny is that they are at opposite ends of the price spectrum...

My most favored cradle style consumer oriented li-ion cell charger is the Pila IBC hands down. Most will agree that this charger meets or exceeds the need for capability, safety, and reliability. You can use this on everything from RCR123s up to 18650s just fine. (additional spacers required for 34mm length cells) Car adapter available or included in some cases.

Alternatively, the semi-recently discovered YOHO-122... this one should not be used to charge anything smaller than a 17500, (or ~1000mAH capacity cell) as it has a higher charge rate. You can get one of these for ~$10 over at batterystation, look for the "Dual Pocket Charger" in the clearance section of the website. The YOHO-122, while not perfect, does have an acceptable charge algorithm and true termination with no trickle charging. It's much better than any WF-139 you could buy if you are going to be charging mostly larger cells. The charge rate is much better for the big cells, you won't be waiting around for the charge to finish all day with it... This one is hard-wired to a standard US 2 terminal lamp cord, no 12V powered option available unfortunately.

-Eric

 

[recDNA]

Hello again,

I'm not a big fan of the WF-139 series of chargers. There have been several revisions of the charger over the years and only one of those revisions was sort-of OK.... problem is, it's impossible to know what you are going to get, some trickle charge after termination (leading to over-charge), all of them reach higher than ideal charge voltages during the charge. Reliability is a bit less than one would hope for...

There are 2 chargers that I like right now quite a bit. What's funny is that they are at opposite ends of the price spectrum...

My most favored cradle style consumer oriented li-ion cell charger is the Pila IBC hands down. Most will agree that this charger meets or exceeds the need for capability, safety, and reliability. You can use this on everything from RCR123s up to 18650s just fine. (additional spacers required for 34mm length cells) Car adapter available or included in some cases.

Alternatively, the semi-recently discovered YOHO-122... this one should not be used to charge anything smaller than a 17500, (or ~1000mAH capacity cell) as it has a higher charge rate. You can get one of these for ~$10 over at batterystation, look for the "Dual Pocket Charger" in the clearance section of the website. The YOHO-122, while not perfect, does have an acceptable charge algorithm and true termination with no trickle charging. It's much better than any WF-139 you could buy if you are going to be charging mostly larger cells. The charge rate is much better for the big cells, you won't be waiting around for the charge to finish all day with it... This one is hard-wired to a standard US 2 terminal lamp cord, no 12V powered option available unfortunately.

-Eric

Any particular place to get the PILA?

 

[Patriot]

They normally range from $45-$50 so try Bug Out Gear

http://www.bugoutgearusa.com/bach.html

and use your CPF discount.


If it's available for substantially less somewhere you'll have to google it.

 

[recDNA]

They normally range from $45-$50 so try Bug Out Gear

http://www.bugoutgearusa.com/bach.html

and use your CPF discount.


If it's available for substantially less somewhere you'll have to google it.

Thanks...I'll try out my Mg PLi with CR123A first and if I really like the flashlight I'll buy the charger and 2 18650's. I didn't want this flashlight to cost over $100 but now it will ... :-(

The bugout discount I found appears to only cover jetbeam lights (cpfjet). Is there another code?

 

[Black Rose]

You can always start off with the Yoho-122 Eric mentioned and then get the Pila later on when you have the $$$ and know you're going to stick with 18650 cells, etc.

Once you get into 18650 cells, the lighting opportunites are endless :D

 

[recDNA]

You can always start off with the Yoho-122 Eric mentioned and then get the Pila later on when you have the $$$ and know you're going to stick with 18650 cells, etc.

Once you get into 18650 cells, the lighting opportunites are endless :D

Is th Yoho better than the AW 139?

 

[recDNA]

They normally range from $45-$50 so try Bug Out Gear

http://www.bugoutgearusa.com/bach.html

and use your CPF discount.


If it's available for substantially less somewhere you'll have to google it.

What discount code?

 

[Black Rose]

Is th Yoho better than the AW 139?

From mdocod's earlier post above...

Alternatively, the semi-recently discovered YOHO-122... this one should not be used to charge anything smaller than a 17500, (or ~1000mAH capacity cell) as it has a higher charge rate. You can get one of these for ~$10 over at batterystation, look for the "Dual Pocket Charger" in the clearance section of the website. The YOHO-122, while not perfect, does have an acceptable charge algorithm and true termination with no trickle charging. It's much better than any WF-139 you could buy if you are going to be charging mostly larger cells. The charge rate is much better for the big cells, you won't be waiting around for the charge to finish all day with it... This one is hard-wired to a standard US 2 terminal lamp cord, no 12V powered option available unfortunately.

-Eric

 

[recDNA]

Thanks. That was very nice of you.

 

[FlashKat]

I prefer the WF-139 battery charger, and if you are going to buy AW 18650 protected batteries then the charge will terminate through the battery. Also AW is consider one of the best batteries and he sell the WF-139 charger it can't be that bad.

 

[mdocod]

I prefer the WF-139 battery charger, and if you are going to buy AW 18650 protected batteries then the charge will terminate through the battery. Also AW is consider one of the best batteries and he sell the WF-139 charger it can't be that bad.

You may have misinterpreted a number of explanations of how the WF-139 works and how li-ion cells are supposed to be charged.

Using the PCB to terminate a charge only works semi-correctly IF the charge rate is high enough to result in a resting voltage after termination ~4.15-4.25V. (ideally below 4.20V). Coincidentally, when RCR123 size protected cells are used in a WF-139, the charge does hit a voltage that trips the PCB and causes a termination of ~4.16V resting, when large cells, like 18560s are installed, the lower charge rate (charge current divided by cell capacity) results in the charger terminating the charge ~4.27V during the charge, ~4.20V resting. (Cells have to hit ~4.35V for the PCB to trip, for *most* cells anyways)...

If you were using one of the WF-139s that has a tendency to trickle charge after supposed "termination," then the differential between charge voltage and resting voltage would settle out during the trickle to a very small difference, and the cell would be slowly ramped up to a true charged voltage of nearly 4.35V.

I can not stress enough how unhealthy it is for a LiCo cell to be sitting at 4.35V.

Some versions of the WF-139 will completely miss termination all-together if a mostly charged li-ion cell is installed, resulting in significant over-charge. Some versions had the trickle charge problem, and they all use a charging method that is not recommended by any cell manufacture I am aware of. I don't know why AW sells these chargers. His cells are pretty good, but he really needs to source some better quality chargers to put his name on.

-Eric

 

[recDNA]

"I can not stress enough how unhealthy it is for a LiCo cell to be sitting at 4.35V. "

What specifically do you mean? Will the cells explode or not work or what?

 

[Black Rose]

"I can not stress enough how unhealthy it is for a LiCo cell to be sitting at 4.35V. "

What specifically do you mean? Will the cells explode or not work or what?

It will significantly reduce the cycle life of the cell.

It has been noted in other threads that:
A cell charged to 4.1v is good for around 1500 cycles.
A cell charged to 4.2v is good for around 500 cycles.
A cell charged to 4.3v is good for less than 100 cycles.