A call to action - "Steady Service Output"

TEEJ

Flashaholic
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Messages
7,490
Location
NJ
ANSI had a standard for the lumen out put and the range/throw.

Perhaps a way of standardizing the run time claims in the same manner would be all that is needed.

As there are many ways of getting a light to output, with multiple stepped step downs, thermal step downs, burst modes, and so forth, is to state the cell the spec is associated with and the time at each output level claimed (As, currently, a light might be brighter on two cells but run longer on one cell, and what we see in ads is the max run time on the lowest setting with the single longer running cell, and the initial max brightness on the dual cell before step downs)

Similarly, the RANGE will step down in lock step with the lumen step downs....so the light with a advertised 10k cd at 1,000 lumens might drop to 5k cd at 500 L, and so forth.

Simple stuff like the hot spot, corona and spill beam angles would also so much to a simple interpretation of the output patterns, etc.


The barriers to implementation of all this apples and apples type info revolve around the always present competitive pressures to beat the competitions claims...and no one wants to be the guy with ads that look wimpy compared to the competition's ads....PLUS the actual ADDED TESTING that would add to the lead time and costs to market a light, the ad space devoted to specs vs other marketing propaganda/information, etc.

IE: The current limited/cherry picked spec box might take up 5- 10% of the light's ad space. An expanded spec box such as we need to be able to intelligently compare lights could conceivably triple the minimum size of the spec boxes.

Those expanded check boxes would run counter to normal advertising principles, which typically SIMPLIFY the process for joe consumer...NOT complicate it.


For example, if you are NOT a light aficionado, and just "Want a new bright light", etc...you are typically best sold with a simple set of choices to compare the features the seller WANTS compared.

Go to Sears, etc...and look at the quintessential "Good - Better - Best" sign over the three tire choices.

They might list three "specs" for each tire...the same specs....say price, tread wear warranty, and braking.

The tires get more expensive and the specs step up proportionally...so its easy to see the algorythm expected...pay more = get more...choose a tire.


They COULD list some other specs, like wet vs dry traction, handling precision, snow traction, ice traction, resistance to ozone or UV light, etc...but, they DON'T. The reason they don't is that it complicates the purchase decision by adding too many variables.

We like comparing three things or fewer at a time...its human nature.

Add variables, and we typically get a headache.

So, its NOT in the advertiser's interests to have messy ads with lots of specs...that style doesn't work well in the actual marketplace.


If a buddy asks who you think will win the baseball game....and you are not in a Fantasy League, etc...you give a simple analysis based on a superficial guess (They're home, and their ace is pitching, so they'll probably win)

That's the level most ads go for.

If they audience is INTO specs...THEN the spec box IS the ad.

They want to snswer the question with on base percentages and averages and historical trends and match-ups, and other more in depth methods.


So, if CPF was the primary consumer base...the expanded specs would be great, at least for the ones with the best specs, that day.

As CPF is NOT the primary consumer base, the flashasobers are....the expanded spec boxes would not even be interpretable let alone useful, and would just muddy the waters of the decision process.


So, I am 100% in favor of expanded test boxes, or AT LEAST providing the added info on their web site as a potentially reasonable compromise.

:D
 

Capolini

Banned
Joined
Aug 4, 2013
Messages
5,945
Location
Valley Forge, Pa.
I found some interesting information. I googled ANSI/NEMA to learn more about it and I came across a "PDF" File from Streamlight. Most if not all of this may be common knowledge to you, however I found "Three words" that are very interesting and seems to put validity on our cause. Those Three words will be in bold.

RUN TIME
The duration of time from the initial light output value[that's 30 seconds after the light is turned on with fresh batteries] until the light output drops to 10% of the initial value.

PURPOSE:To determine the amount of time elapsed "UNDER CONTINUOUS OPERATION" at which the device's light output reaches a level when users commonly replace the batteries.

RUN TIME AND LIGHT OUTPUT

Runtime and light output are both measured by using a spectroradiometer with an integrating sphere system and computing software.

To find runtime, the light output test is repeated every 15 minutes until the output drops to 10% of its initial value.

Those three words, "UNDER CONTINUOUS OPERATION" were the basis of my original thread in regards to the Misleading Specs.given by Nitecore[My EA4] and Fenix's PD35 which I investigated but DID NOT purchase!

Not sure how much it can help our cause. For me, it validated what I[and others] have been saying all along!:thumbsup:

P.S. The only reason I am here[CPF] is because of my Siberian Husky. 3+ out of our daily 6+ miles are at night on hiking trails and sometimes back country roads. I started with an approx. 100 lumen mini-cree light and quickly advanced to TK-75 and other searchlights because of too many close calls.:eek: Then I left the neighborhood walks for safety, peace of mind and the enjoyment of seeing the "true" power of these torches!:twothumbs

"KNOWING IS NOT ENOUGH, WE MUST DO. WILLING IS NOT ENOUGH, WE MUST APPLY!
 
Last edited:

Capolini

Banned
Joined
Aug 4, 2013
Messages
5,945
Location
Valley Forge, Pa.
"Quote from "teej"

So, its NOT in the advertiser's interests to have messy ads with lots of specs...that style doesn't work well in the actual marketplace.

************************************************************************
Messy? It just has to be simple, valid and authentic.:thinking: ;)
 
Last edited:

gravelmonkey

Enlightened
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
735
Location
UK
I'd appreciate runtime graphs (at, say 25C) on manufacturer websites, makes any stepdown(s) obvious and allows me to compare modes on different lights against each other.

While we're at it, I'd also really like throw distance to be measured to 1 lux rather than .25 lux and runtime down to 50% of initial output (rather than 10%) on the 'At a glance' ANSI FL1 specs box.

Oh, and I'd like to be a £millionaire... but that's even more unlikely...
 

Capolini

Banned
Joined
Aug 4, 2013
Messages
5,945
Location
Valley Forge, Pa.
I'd appreciate runtime graphs (at, say 25C) on manufacturer websites, makes any stepdown(s) obvious and allows me to compare modes on different lights against each other.

While we're at it, I'd also really like throw distance to be measured to 1 lux rather than .25 lux and runtime down to 50% of initial output (rather than 10%) on the 'At a glance' ANSI FL1 specs box.

Oh, and I'd like to be a £millionaire... but that's even more unlikely...
I suggest you read the "OP". This thread is for people interested in making a change, not for sarcasm and negativity.;)
 
Last edited:

zespectre

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
May 21, 2005
Messages
2,197
Location
Lost in NY
Wow, I was just checking in and you guys have been busy.

TEEJ said: ANSI had a standard for the lumen out put and the range/throw. Perhaps a way of standardizing the run time claims in the same manner would be all that is needed.

TEEJ, I know about the ANSI standards. I had a <small> hand in developing them way back in the day (which is partially my point that we CAN get changes made). Your suggestion about standardizing the run time claims is precisely what my "Steady Service Output" number is supposed to be. Of course I don't care if we decide to call it something else, I was just giving us a starting point.

Poppy; You have a lot of excellent suggestions. I certainly don't own this notion so feel free to jump in, create another thread, write up a list for review. Heck people thought ThomasH and I were crazy for starting the "flashlight recommendation checklist" back in the day and look what that turned into :)

gravelmonkey said: I'd appreciate runtime graphs (at, say 25C) on manufacturer websites, makes any stepdown(s) obvious and allows me to compare modes on different lights against each other. While we're at it, I'd also really like throw distance to be measured to 1 lux rather than .25 lux and runtime down to 50% of initial output (rather than 10%) on the 'At a glance' ANSI FL1 specs box.

Oh, and I'd like to be a £millionaire... but that's even more unlikely...

Gravelmonkey; If you think getting things changed is unlikely/impossible then you might want to see my note above about the development of the ANSI standards that exist now. I can tell you this for certain, if some of us hadn't started making noise...nothing would have changed. But we did and eventually we got enough attention (in a positive way) for manufacturers to realize that having standards and a level playing field actually benefited them.

I guess what I'm saying is that right now -I- am focusing tightly on a runtime measurement issue and I'm not going to diffuse my efforts
BUT
If you have other changes you want in the standards then by all means I strongly encourage you to get active. Don't wait for me, I'm busy <grin>, start a thread, start writing manufacturers. Heck, contact ANSI and become an individual member.

"Back in the day" Individuals started with NO FLASHLIGHT STANDARDS AT ALL but then we got together and from 2006 to 2009 managed to hammer out the ANSI fl-1 and demonstrate to manufacturers why using those standards would HELP them. It can be done, it HAS been done. Go for it!

(If I missed replying to anyone else I apologize. I am coming off a migraine and have very poor concentration right now).
 

gravelmonkey

Enlightened
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
735
Location
UK
I suggest you read the "OP". This thread is for people interested in making a change, not for sarcasm and negativity.;)

<snip> Gravelmonkey; If you think getting things changed is unlikely/impossible then you might want to see my note above about the development of the ANSI standards that exist now. I can tell you this for certain, if some of us hadn't started making noise...nothing would have changed. But we did and eventually we got enough attention (in a positive way) for manufacturers to realize that having standards and a level playing field actually benefited them.

I guess what I'm saying is that right now -I- am focusing tightly on a runtime measurement issue and I'm not going to diffuse my efforts
BUT
If you have other changes you want in the standards then by all means I strongly encourage you to get active. Don't wait for me, I'm busy <grin>, start a thread, start writing manufacturers. Heck, contact ANSI and become an individual member.

"Back in the day" Individuals started with NO FLASHLIGHT STANDARDS AT ALL but then we got together and from 2006 to 2009 managed to hammer out the ANSI fl-1 and demonstrate to manufacturers why using those standards would HELP them. It can be done, it HAS been done. Go for it!
<snip>

You guys saying that it's impossible to become a millionaire!? :broke::grin2: I didn't mean to come accross overly negative.

I think there will be an increase in the next few months/years of lights with active thermal management; as long as the ambient temperature for the test is reasonable (25C rather than -15C) then this is the 'ideal' arrangement IMO- Maximum light for the given conditions at any time. Timed step-down is a bit trickier, for the most part the step-down is to protect the LED rather than to dishonestly inflate run-times.

For an example of transparency (ie not having to reach page 3 of marketing jargon before you see 'timed stepdown'), Zebralight is very good at describing brightness, step-downs and runtime of maximum modes; all the details are available on the product page. That said, it's also a good example of 'information overload' for the average consumer which would be less daunting with a runtime graph.

Hope you're feeling better, Ze.
 
Last edited:

Swedpat

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Messages
3,448
Location
Boden, Sweden
I fully agree with OP, a truly justified matter! So many examples are there of very misleading specifications. And I understand we partly can blame the ANSI/NEMA FL-1 standard for this situation: according to that standard the runtime is until the output is 10% of the output of 30s after start. This means that an 800lm light runned by 2x18650 can have a runtime of 2 hours, while another light with same emitter runned by a single 18650 can be claimed to have 1,5 hour.
According to ANSI/NEMA FL-1 standard it may be correct, but it's very misleading especially considering all these lights usually are claimed to be fully regulated: the stable runtime with the single cell light may be ~30min while the double cell light provides ~90min(think that's a pretty typhical case).
 
Last edited:

Capolini

Banned
Joined
Aug 4, 2013
Messages
5,945
Location
Valley Forge, Pa.
I guess since Ze is the Thread starter I will ask him.

I recently joined a few other Flashlight Forums.

Should I mention this thread to them for some possible support?

Ciao,,Roberto
Hey, I quoted my own post,,on purpose!!

What I meant by this is support in terms of when letters will be sent out to the distributors and dealers. The more people we have sending these letters, the more effective and better chance we will have at success!:thumbsup:

I did not mean support in terms of the decision making in regards to the final product[letter].That is the op's call! ;)
 

zespectre

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
May 21, 2005
Messages
2,197
Location
Lost in NY
Capolini;
I welcome input on this from any source. I just want to try and keep folks from mail-blitzing the manufacturers until we get a somewhat unified request together.
 

zespectre

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
May 21, 2005
Messages
2,197
Location
Lost in NY
I think there will be an increase in the next few months/years of lights with active thermal management <snip>.

Yes, I agree completely on that and I think we're going to get some ASTOUNDING lights out of this trend, but this is also precisely why I think we need to act now and get some agreed upon standards for advertising "burst" functions.
 

Capolini

Banned
Joined
Aug 4, 2013
Messages
5,945
Location
Valley Forge, Pa.
Capolini;
I welcome input on this from any source. I just want to try and keep folks from mail-blitzing the manufacturers until we get a somewhat unified request together.

Ze,that is what I mean!

This would not be done until the finalized letter from you was complete!

Do not worry, I will not mention it until you give me the ok.:thumbsup:
 
Top