A2 an Engineering Marvel? + CPF then & now

[McGizmo]

radellaf,

It seems to me that your cost analysis may be a bit over simplified and though probably none of us can contest it, that doesn't make it accurate or necessarily even reasonable. You allow $20 for basic form (what ever that is) $40 for the SF touches??? Is this $40 the part that covers the R&D of the switch components and tooling for all of the custom, not off the shelf parts, that are used? For the heck of it, take a typical flashlight head and the A2 head to a machine shop and ask them to quote both for you. What does it cost to put an inner sleeve of metal in an Al battery tube? I don't know, but the A2 and L1's are the only lights I have that have this feature.

It seems that you are looking for some hidden cost to justify to yourself the perceived high price of the A2. If it bothers you that much, take one to a machinist along with the light you've pictured above and ask them the relative costs to produce each for you. Their costs will not be in catagories of "basic form" , "SF touches", "regulator" and "LED's". Value and utility to you aside, the A2 is not a trivial piece of work. I think in another A2 thread, I used a rather weak analogy of bicycles. A $200 mountain bike and a $7000 mountain bike do the same thing, right? Both have tires, frame, seat, brakes, those gear thingies............

- Don

 

[Double_A]

radellaf-

What don't you like about the tactical end button style pushbutton?

Is it possible you looking at this issue from a engineer point of view and not seeing the business issues in the whole picture?

GregR

 

[radellaf]

I'm looking for some hidden cost to help me rationalize the actual high price of the A2, yes /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I don't know of any machine shops in the area, but I get your point. Just to clarify, by "basic form" I mean the Brinkmann LX at $20 covers the basics. If SF made it, it'd probably be $60 or thereabouts, the E2e being I think $80, but smaller and I'll assume with a more advanced bulb and better switch. Regulator and LEDs come from the Wille Hunt LVR, and other 3-LED packages. $25 for an Opalec, so a 3-LED circuit board w/no regulator for $20 seems more than fair.

The purpose of the inner sleeve I don't really understand. Do you know why it has to be there? As I understand it, the tailcap connects battery - to body directly for HI and through a small resistor (10 ohm?) for low. In the head it looks like the body is LED(-), the center ring is LED(+) and Lamp(+), and the centermost contact is regulator-output to Lamp(-). The regulator needs to "see" Batt+, Body (Batt-), and that centermost contact. That doesn't seem to require any special internal construction. The switch never touches the internal sleeve....anyone know what gives?

I get your analogy, and agree it's weak <grin>, but understand the point. Along those lines, though, it stands to reason that the SF A2 is a "bad value". In every hobby as price goes up so does value, but value doesn't keep pace. Usually there's a rough breakpoint at which you can start saying you've quit buying much improvement with your money and you have to admit you're spending LOTS of money for SMALL differences. That $7000 bike may weigh 10lbs., and that may be the only difference between it and a 11lb. $3500 bike. If you don't stand to win at least that much racing that bike, you can, I think, comfortably be labeled a "bicycle nut" (in the nicest way). My boss bought a $3000 stereo reciever, I have a $200 one. His is, as far as I can tell, "a little nicer". He's a "stereo nut" and proud of it...albeit he thinks those who buy power cords for over $10 are nuts in a less benign way.

$150 is somewhere near that breakpoint in flashlights I think, maybe a bit above it. Then again I dunno what to say about HID. The price/value thing can fall apart if you get truly different technology at some point and not just refinements.

Then again, the more I use and play with and look at the A2, the more I'm seeing there really IS something different about how well it is put together than any of my other flashlights.

Y'know, I participated in some of that speculation before the A2 was released and thought it was not just a little, but ab-so-lutely ridiculous. Thought I'd never want one. Then I saw one in person, and less than a week later somehow found the $$ to buy one. It's continuing to win me over, to be quite honest.

Still, to clutch at one last straw, $25 LIGHTBULBS? Why on earth... Anyone know if there _is_ a guy doing glass blowing at SureFire?

--

As for the tactical button, well, two reasons: location, and duration.

It's lovely for momentary use but a real hassle for turning it on for more than, say, 10 seconds at a time. I want "on" more often than "blip".

I also want the switch where my thumb is when I'm holding it, which is almost always right behind the bezel. With the A2 I have to try to hold the back with my pinky and rotate the bezel & body with my thumb and forefinger. Works, kinda, but takes seemingly forever to go from LED to LED+Lamp.

Maglite's switch is my ideal for a one-function button. For two, I can't think of a single-switch arrangement I like better than the ArcWhite/Trailfinder 3 position slide switch.

That said, for it's type, the A2 has a very nice feeling switch. Dunno how reliable it'll prove, those "fingers" look breakable, but I'll trust in SF's expertise there.

 

[Double_A]

radellaf-

I understand your point on the location of the push button. This is probibly why Streamlight place theirs on the head. I Think they are making their lights for the average user.

Surefire on the other hand makes no bones about it, they make tactical flashlights, the end cap location is a must for this purpose.

This is where I see a company might be justified in getting testy and say to a customer that didn't like the end cap location and tell them we don't make flashlights for users like you. I'm just guessing here but If I heard someone at SF say that I would shrug my shoulders and say yea. You would be asking them to be something thay are not.

GregR

P.S. I've been a flashaholic since way back, my Surefire Board member number is something like #138. I've bought tons of flashlights over the years and can tell you The SL TT-2L is the best non SF or ARC flashlight I've ever bought for $30 it's a steal. I think it, is want you need, forget the A2

 

[radellaf]

Yeah, I know SF does not make lights for someone even remotely like me. I don't know what possessed me to change my mind from completely ignoring, nay, looking down upon, SFs flashlights to suddenly buying one.

Well, yes I do, I saw the A2. I used the A2 in the store. I dunno how else to put it but that I fell in love with it. <shrug> Something about the aesthetics I think, which surprised the bejesus out of me since I think most SF lights are the ugliest contraptions I've seen. What _are_ all those rings and flanges for? Something to do with using them with firearms, I'm sure.

I had a moment of severe buyer's remorse when I realized I'd forgotten the TT-2L existed when I bought the A2. But, I've felt the Brookstone light that resembles the TT the most, and used the A2 for a few weeks now, and just have to accept that there's something not rational in why I like the A2. It's just, well, cool. I spent $150 to have a "cool thing". $120 more than I had to for the function.

It is having one effect I was hoping it would, and which helps keep a luxury budget in check. It's such a neat toy that I doubt I'll really want any other neat toys for a while. Just an order of batteries to feed it...

It's just set up one heck of an internal dialogue. "Isn't this a neat light?" vs. "You spent WHAT for a FLASHLIGHT?". <sigh>

I have found myself going to a cafe to read, opening my book, and then spending the next half hour, while I sip my coffee, admiring the A2.

I think I've got it bad. <grin> Kinda fun though.

 

[Gransee]

I estimate the A2 costs SF about $30-40 in parts. They probably profit an average of about $5 for each light made. The rest is all labor, overhead and distribution! This is the based on "off the napkin" calculations and my own experience in manufacturing.

(extra long-winded details about distribution, whining about legal expenses and other overhead, etc deleted )

Peter

 

[chamenos]

peter, that was a very informative post /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif i really wish lawsuits didn't have to be part of your concerns though /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rant.gif

 

[radellaf]

Well, you know (much) better than I, thanks for the informed speculation. I was guessing there would be much more profit than that, like $20 or $30.

BTW, I just went to a local place called Lawmen's Safety Supply that has a COMPLETE line of Streamlight and, here's the odd part, a COMPLETE selection of bulbs. Guess they sell to people who actually use their flashlights. Almost walked out of there with a TT-1L ($20)(fits so nicely in my bad) but decided to wait & see what the 2L, which was out of stock, looks like. They're nicer than I thought, if not quite as "polished" looking as the A2. Not as bright, though...well, the TL-3 LED ($114) was about as bright as the A2, but not regulated. Still, nice size! Also, good runtime vs. the A2, but alas only one brightness level.

Most of them are redundant with the A2 in my pocket, except maybe the TT-3 Xe ($59). They're functionally nice but just don't "do it" for me the way the A2 does. So I guess I'll shut up now and burn up CR123As in the A2 at an amazing clip. If I can use up a bulb in it, I'll have got my money's worth /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Ditto on the lawsuits. That really sucks, the $$ could be going to R&D dammit.

 

[Double_A]

radellaf-

the TT-2L is just a bit longer and will have an output that is close to the A2.

No it isn't the Surefire, but for $30 it can't be beat, wait for the 2L.

GregR

 

[radellaf]

If it has an incandescent output close to the A2 for much of the batteries' life I'll be impressed, as the stated runtime is over 2 hours vs. the A2's 40 minutes.

I'm also kinda looking for a light to give a friend going to the Peace Corps. The Streamlight 4AA 7LED is rugged, pretty cheap, bright enough, and AAs are preferable fuel in 3rd world places. I'm thinking the upcoming Princeton Tec 4AA luxeon light might be better, though (as luxeons seem more efficient).

 

[jtivat]

Even with new batteries in a TT 2L it is not near as bright as the A2.

 

[Double_A]

Really? Not as bright or the light output is not as much?

I don't have the A2. My comments were based on my comparison with an E2/E2e. The TT-2L was slightly less bright but has a larger beamspread. Since published specs list the A2 as having a lower Lumen output than the E2e, I assumed it would be comparible to the A2.

Guess not, but I still love the TT-2L

GregR

 

[Blikbok]

I can't possibly address everything I've read in this thread, but my signature is forcing me to post. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I don't think the A2 is worth $150, but I have one anyway. I thought I'd never get an Arc LS but I wound up with one. Don't know how that happened. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif But I use the dang thing all the time, and it's great to have a single light that does what I need.

So yeah, I'd love to see $50 A2s. But if I lost my LSH-S or A2, I'd be on the phone in a heartbeat and paying full price and FedEx overnight to replace them. (That's how I got most of my Arc AAA's. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif )I think that's an important characteristic of a good product. I can't measure that, and I can't be sure of it before I've had the item for a while.

Does anyone else have those "any price to replace" items?

 

[radellaf]

That's about the way I see it, though I don't think I'd pay $140 for a new Arc SLS-like device. The LS4, maybe, probably. I paid $50 for a cool LS second with a magenta tint that I really like, and am glad I had the opportunity.

As for the A2, neat as it is, explanations though I've heard, I still don't think is worth the price but have one anyway and love using it. I don't think I could afford to replace it, though. Maybe. Like you I also enjoy my A2 more when I use it instead of thinking about how much it (or the batteries) cost.

About the only other things like that in my life are good home and car stereo systems (the theft and replacement of the latter having eaten my entire budget for the next month) and this eMac...oh, and probably a high quality (Sony DSC-S85 or V1 level) digicam.

 

[radellaf]

Well I now have the TT-2L, A2, and for reference, a Brinkmann LX. Actually, the LX is new as WalMart was kind enough to replace my original one which broke. Suffice to say, I don't recommend dropping it even short distances despite its claim to be "shock resistant". Take a good look at the flimsy piece of plastic that holds the bulb in that thick aluminum body. Doesn't take much of a head-dive for the batteries to shatter it, and supergluing it back together doesn't make for a reliable light afterwards. You'd think they could have at least "filled in" the shape of it so it was more than a couple of mm thick. Anyway...

The A2 and LX are about as bright, with fresh batts in the LX. LX might project a little farther. The TT-2L is noticeably dimmer with its 650mA 3-4W bulb, about 4D Mag equivalent whereas the 6-7W A2 or LX is more like I imagine the 6 cell version would be. Both A2 (180mA) and TT-2L (220mA) way overdrive their poor little LEDs. The switch on the A2 is much better for momentary use, the TT-2L much better for constant. Would that the TT-2L's switch were the momentary-on rather than momentary-off type.

So, $20, $30, and $150. Bulbs $5, $3, and $20. <shrug> Yeah, the TT-2L is the best value by far, and the lower power draw I see as an advantage. It's still very bright, and gives much more runtime, plus it allows more efficiency from the lesser brands of CR123.

You could buy an LX plus a Opalec equipped MiniMag ($60 or so total) for less than half the A2's price, and not drain 123s to power 3 LEDs. But...it'd be bigger, and if you dropped the LX it might break. I'm not testing my TT-2L the same way, even though Lawman's Supply is now an authorized Streamlight service center.

The A2 is the no-compromise light, built by a company that probably says "We're going to build the best version of this type of light possible and damn the cost." It's unquestionably better made. The fit and finish of the others has flaws, and only the A2 has springs for both contacts rather than just a flat piece of metal. It's also the smallest...though perhaps they took that a bit far. Some of my SF123A cells need a push to get their top crimp past a narrow spot where the mysterious inner sleve ends. The TT-2L's cells have plenty of breathing room, or room for 4 small rechargeable cells.

I'm glad I have them all. The LX is cheap enough to leave in the car, the TT-2L is just masterful for the price, and the A2 is a work of art. If I buy any for gifts, though, you can bet it'll be TT-2Ls and not A2s.

 

[AlecGold]

I can't understand why there should be a problem with the cost of an A2. It has been made extremely well. I've been a CNC mill-operator for 2 years and seen a lot of products been made. The products SF makes are almost like custom made and of excellent construction design and engineering. I wouldn't like to be their accountant/financial manager.
The mysterious inner sleeve can have several functions: at this place the aluminium is quite thin by the trapezium thread and now supported by a stainless steel bush. Also the protection of the relatively soft end can be an issue to place a bush and because you will slide numerous batteries in it, it will protect the aluminium from wear.
The last point I’m not sure, but the reinforcement and thread protection is quite simple and clear to me.
Other thing is the reflector. Did you take the LED lights out? You would have seen a very nice made 1 piece reflector, other point is the place where the clip is attached to the body, this part has been milled, not turned. To me the A2 is a thing of beauty never seen before and even functional. I play with it while drinking coffee, I admire it, I love it, I don't have a girlfriend anymore, I've become a flasoholic, at last.
Here, in the Netherlands, an A2 cost around 300 euro. Street price!!! At this moment this will be what, $ 357?! And with only 2 sales points competition is not an issue.
Just the mechanical machining and engineering on this light justifies IMHO the street price of $150.
Look at it form another point of view: I’ve had a 6P for 9 years! What light survives 9 years of daily carrying on a belt, in a pocket, in a sugar factory, mill/turning shop etc?

 

[radellaf]

I think it's mostly that for me the concept of "well made" only went so far, and it costs a lot for what it _does_. That, and the $20 light bulbs make one wonder about SFs pricing.

I do still have a girlfriend, but I know what you mean about playing with it while drinking coffee. The folks at the cafe are probably tired of seeing it. OK, since for now I'm playing with the TT-2L, not that a non-flashaholic would probably notice the difference.

 

[chamenos]

i agree in terms of function the A2 doesn't exceed that of the TT-2L enough to justify the increase in price, but the reasons for the A2's high price should not be disregarded. in the end its all about beauty being in the eye of the beholder /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[cy]

nice old thread worth bumping..

 

[Navck]

Two manufactures that insulted CPF? Wow...
Guessing one is M*G right now. But thats just being me...

Oh yea, the A2 thread just popped up again.