Advice needed how to replace alkies with Eneloops

Egsise

Banned
Joined
Dec 11, 2008
Messages
974
Location
Arctic Circle
The company where i work uses lots of AA alkaline cells.
They are being used in hearing protectors, medium to low power flashlights and headlamps.
I could need a few tips how to direct the company to use rechargeables.
The overall usage is around 1000 cells in a month.
There have been no battery leakages.
Working temperature is from -40°F to 100°F.
No personal chargers, several big, smart, "maintenance free" chargers would be better.

Any ideas?
 
Hi Egsise

The best approach would be on the environment grounds and carbon foot print. An additional benefit would be reducing cost to the organisation.

Good luck
 
How often do you have to replace individual batteries? i.e. You change 1000 batteries per month, but how many batteries total are in use?

Are the batteries all AA or AAA, or are there some C and D cells?

How much pilferage do you have? How much more are you going to have if you buy "expensive" rechargeables?
 
The devices use 2xAA and the cells need to be replaced ~2 times in a week, roughly, making that about 60 devices.
All 1000 cells are AA size.

The "disappearing" AA's are quite small problem now(locked storage solved that), and if the company starts to use rechargeables they would be monitored even closer.
I counted that one cell needs to be recharged less than 10 times to be as cheap as alkaline cell.

The biggest problems would be recharging, are there any good simple plug n play 8-24 AA cell chargers?

It does not need to be fast, just smarter than the user who does not monitor them all the time.
 
Hehe thats nonsense, you company really should use rechargeables. There are a lot of good 8 bay chargers out there, just make sure they have individually regulated bays!

I don't know about chargers with more bays, but if you can't find any of those you can just buy a few with 8 bays. The invesment should be covered exrtemely fast. That should be enough of a reason for the copmany to switch to rechargables.
 
Hehe thats nonsense, you company really should use rechargeables. There are a lot of good 8 bay chargers out there, just make sure they have individually regulated bays!

I don't know about chargers with more bays, but if you can't find any of those you can just buy a few with 8 bays. The invesment should be covered exrtemely fast. That should be enough of a reason for the copmany to switch to rechargables.
I know it, you know it, we all know it, but I need to convince the company about it.....
 
The $$$ benefits in favor of rechargeable is obvious. The "fly in the ointment" is who's in charge of collecting discharged batteries, dispensing charged batteries, re-charging the batteries.... and keeping everything in order???

I'm assuming that most of the batteries are used for personal protective gear, if so its the safety officer's responsibility to insure that workers have ALL the required equipment. And yes, it IS the responsibility of each worker to use the safety equipment provided and request any needed parts/supplies to keep that gear in good order.

This situation is the sort of thing that makes safety officers drink.......

Just thinking about this makes me want to drink........

Time to head for the e-bar
 
I think if they try a good 8 bay charger (like the Maha C800) with eneloops in just a couple of machines for a month or so they will be convinced to swith to rechargeables.

The eneloops are tough enough not to develop very high discharge or voltage depression in the long term and already starting with them will be a good idea. If the devices are high drain ones they will be overperforming the alkalines, plus you can recharge them. Even if they need to get a dozen or so each month to replace stolen/damaged cells, it will be cheaper.
 
If the devices are going through two or three sets of batteries a week, the devices must have at least a medium current draw, so the NiMH chemistry would probably require fewer battery changes, and possibly improve performance of the devices. Certainly when the ambient temperature gets below 40F the performance of Eneloops will be much better than alkalines, and the performance gap would only widen as the temp went down from that.

I was just backpacking over the Thanksgiving weekend in the Catskills and the Duraloops I had worked great. The temp was a bit below freezing and my lights runtime were similar to their indoor runtimes. I replaced some alkalines in my friends camera that would't work and got it going again.

Good luck with this change, it would be a great thing to implement.
 
Forgive me for not jumping on the Eneloop bandwagon here, but I'm not convinced they are the best solution here. If you're going through batteries in less than a week, LSD doesn't really seem necessary and the reduced capacity would require more frequent recharges. Especially with "shrinkage", I would consider getting a bunch of less expensive high-capacity NiMHs. If you keep them on trickle charge until needed, and use them within a week, I can't imagine the self-discharge problem would be much of a problem at all. And with longer runtimes, hi-cap NiMHs will require less physical installation/removal cycles so they should get beat up less.

Regular NiMH should also be less expensive than Eneloops, making the ROI more attractive to the bean-counters.

Before I'm attacked for heresy, I just bought 8xAA Eneloops for my camera and my Fenix, and I love them for those applications. They're awesome. However they are not the answer to life, the universe, and everything.
 
LSDs are much more "even", than the "better" cells, where every 4-pack has at least one bummer ...

For You all argueing wont be much help: environment, even cost might be understood,
but with that number of cells You would need several ppl to care for charging and replacing batteries
and most certainly there will be a number of ppl who had bad experiences with "those crappy rechargeables" in the past
(even when most of these problems came from crappy charger and crappy cells and from the person itself not doing anything right)
Therefore it will be difficult to get that thing run ...
... maybe try to use them in a "test department" for some time and "then decide"

good luck, LSDs are the bomb
 
I think that switching from primaries to secondaries in business is a good idea wherever it may be done. I have been through it with body mics in a theatre. It has saved an amazing amount of money even on our small scale.

First of all it must be determined that the device will, in fact, run on eneloops and have an acceptable runtime. Also make sure that the swapping out of cells may be accomplished without tearing the cell wrapper or causing the cells to deform in any way. I have seen some devices that were very hard on cells with every insertion and extraction. This is hardly noticed with primaries as they are thrown away after only one insertion/extraction.

Unless I've missed some post covering this you will need to give much more thought to the human factors involved in the behavioral changes that your users will have to make if the switch is going to be cost effective.

You are into secondaries -- everyone responding here is into secondaries. That will probably not be the case with the user base you've mentioned. Don't take your somewhat specialized knowledge for granted. Projecting it onto your users could lead to disaster if you make the switch without giving it serious thought. In my own experience I have been nearly continually amazed at what casual users do not know and also have a very hard time grasping and implementing even after I've tried to explain it to them a few different ways.

Below are a few traps that may lie in wait for your project when uninitiated users become involved:

  • The users will have to be reminded not to just throw the discharged cells away.

    You have 60 devices and even assuming just one user per device that is a lot of people who are very used to just taking out the cells and throwing them away (perhaps some of them have been doing it for years). You may think that this potential problem is rather far fetched. It is not. It has happened to CPFers and they have written about it. If one person does it once it may be bad enough but this problem may be more serious, depending on your user base. Bear in mind that the casual throwing away of ANY secondaries will have a negative impact on your program's bottom line. It will also adversely affect the numbers on your 'carbon footprint' if that's one of your sacraments.
  • Those who have only used primary cells (most if not all of your user base) have no idea how casual handling will shorten the projected life span of secondaries. Consider two scenarios: one with primary cells and one with secondaries. First, a primary AA cell rolls across a desk and falls to a hard floor. The impact of the impact :D is uncertain. If the cell was being transferred to a storage container it may begin to leak in the months ahead. If the cell is going directly into equipment it may leak during discharge but that's probably a long shot. More than likely it will perform normally and be thrown away when discharged without the user ever giving it another thought.

    In the second scenario a secondary cell falls off the desk onto the same hard floor. What will happen? Who knows? This is just one more knock on a cell that was designed to be reused 500-1,000 times. The cumulative effects of the casual handling of secondaries may be devastating in terms of reducing their productive life span and it is important that your users understand that incidents that seem to have no impact at all on primaries will drastically shorten the lives of secondaries. This is somewhat counterintuitive. In general, your users will never have given a thought to this.
  • Every step in the handling of the secondary sells needs to be carefully thought out. Thought should be given to the container(s) that hold both charged and discharged cells so that needless accidents may be avoided and cells may be evenly rotated. If everyone replaces their own cells in their personal devices at the same counter countless charge cycles may be gained by something as simple as adding a strip of wood that will prevent cells from repeatedly just rolling off the counter.

I know that much of this sounds improbable but these issues are very real and have great potential to adversely affect your program. Consider this: IMO the Eneloops are rock solid for many applications. There is a bit more Voodoo involved in selecting a good charger but that part of it is still pretty simple and under your control. The Users, however, are a whole 'nother story. They are the wildcard in this whole project. They will do things that you never anticipated. It will amaze you.

Having said all of that I still think it's a very worthwhile project and I am not trying to turn you off on it at all. (Really) It's just that I have went through some of this in the real world and in reading through this thread I noticed that IMO the most challenging issue of all -- the human factor -- had not been addressed.

The next time I start a project like this I will consider starting a thread that will attract the attention of those who have administered these kind of projects and how they dealt with the problems that their neophyte users introduced after the hardware problems were solved.
 
Last edited:
You might have a better chance of convincing them to start small with a couple of work units (or as an alternative for people who choose to use them) and one or two chargers. NiMH's should last a couple of times longer than alkalines and if you set up a swap so they have fresh batteries ready without waiting to come off the charger, they will sell themselves. You could also just run some numbers for how much a year of alkalines cost vs. buying the chargers you will need plus NiMHs. At the rate of use you are talking it seems like the payback could take less than a year and the second year will be nearly free (good NiMH's can also take a ton of cycles). The problem will be making sure people are charging the batteries and keeping charged batteries available to swap. If the upfront costs of Eneloops are daunting, try the Rayovac 4.0's or go to Costco for the Duracell precharged, even if they are black tops.

I cringe when I hear about people buying bulk packs of disposable batteries. I know they have their place, but in large quantities a chunk should be able to be rechargeable. Good luck with your project!
 
Setting Up a Rechargeable Cell Scenario in a Company

The devices use 2xAA and the cells need to be replaced ~2 times in a week, roughly, making that about 60 devices.
All 1000 cells are AA size
...

I think if they try a good 8 bay charger (like the Maha C800) with eneloops in just a couple of machines for a month or so they will be convinced to swith to rechargeables...

...I could need a few tips how to direct the company to use rechargeables...

...Any ideas?
Roughly thinking (WITHOUT going into the finer details of current draw per device, hours in use per day per device, etc...), I'd suggest starting off with something like:
  • 8 Employees w/8 devices requiring 16 AA cells as a 'Test Group'.
    .
  • 24 AA Eneloops as the 'Primer' inventory, Sharpie-labelled 1-24.
    • 16 in service
    • 8 fully charged, ready to go into service (minimum)
    .
  • 1 Maha 8-cell Smart Charger (I'll have to research 800 vs 808) for DAILY duty.
    .
  • 1 Maha MH-C9000 Smart Charger for EXCEPTIONS duty
    • Breaking-In NEW cells.
    • Weeding out *CRAP* cells.
    • Cycling 'problem' cells before deciding to recycle them.
    • Overflow from RED bin
    .
  • 3 colored bins:
    1. GREEN: Charged and ready to return to service
    2. RED: Discharged and ready to be re-charged
    3. BLUE: Discharged but 'died prematurely' - needs C9000 analysis
    .
  • Sign IN/OUT Sheet with EmplID, Type of Device, Cell#s, Date OUT, Date IN, Days in Service (to gauge Runtime).
Initially, begin the 'Test' with only 4 employees w/4 devices requiring 8 cells (keeping everything else listed above the same) to determine a "Runtime per Device". Once you've established some 'solid' runtime numbers, add 2 more employees at the 'Runtime Mid-point'. This is so that *ALL* the cells don't need to be recharged at the same time *AND* also that the Maha 8-cell Charger doesn't alternate between sitting idle and running constantly (smooth out the 'Peaks and Valleys' to 'once-per-day').

The number of SPARES (currently 8) needs to be determined by 'trial-and-error', but should not need to increase proportionately as the number IN SERVICE increases. Optimally, at the end of the day, the cells in the RED bin (hopefully 8 or less) are charged, maintaining a total of ~8 cells in the GREEN bin each morning.

If/when the number of cells appearing in the RED bin at the end of the day exceeds 8, either the C9000 can pick up the slack, or a second Maha 8-cell Charger will need to be purchased. Hopefully, the ROI will have been established by that point in time.

If I were selling an idea to a company, I'd stick with Maha Chargers and Sanyo Eneloop cells - quality, consistency, reliability, proven track record, warranty.

Egsise, thanks for the 'Brain Teaser / Exercise' :thinking:. Please keep the forum updated with your progress... :popcorn:
 
Re: Setting Up a Rechargeable Cell Scenario in a Company

Roughly thinking (WITHOUT going into the finer details of current draw per device, hours in use per day per device, etc...), I'd suggest starting off with something like:
TakeTheActive I like your plan, but it could be simplified:

With 24 cells, 8 people / 16 cells in use, and an 8-bay charger, keep 6 cells in the charger at all times (the remaining two cells are hidden in storage as replacements for when cells die). When someone needs a fresh set, they put their used ones in the two free slots, then take two charged ones; this eliminates two bins and the need for someone to police the bins... assuming, of course, people are smart enough to not put cells in backwards or grab cells that are still charging.

The "problem cell" bucket for analysis with the smarter charger is a great idea, provided there is at least one person there who is battery-savvy and has the time to play with, er, work on it.
 
I like my rechargeable AA's and have not problems working with then, but if I had a business and I could get by with AA Alkaline's, I would use them. Just too much fuss to worry about in the business place. Now of course we know that fire, and LEO's often use rechargeable lights, but there are dedicated flashlight/battery packs set up for them, and all they have to do is keep the light in the charger when not in use, and they are trained to do that. Unless your company sees the use of Alkaline AA's as a problem, they will not want to "fix it", and I wouldn't blame them.

Bill
 
Unless your company sees the use of Alkaline AA's as a problem, they will not want to "fix it", and I wouldn't blame them.
Unless a state like California introduces a special tax on the use of disposable batteries (something they ought to think about, given the state's fiscal situation) :devil:
 
If increased cost savings and efficiency are desired then government involvement would probably be the worst way to go about it. Another layer of regulation and it's inherent components would likely nullify any potential savings...
 
Last edited:
I dont think there will be the need for a blue bin. If a cell is underperforming, just use the recycle bin. With reliable cells, the number of lemons will be low. Even recyling them you will save money compared with alkalines and things will be kept simple. If the whole thing is "too complicated" they will not even try it.
 
Top