All Battery.com LiFePo4 RCR123A

[Tobyjug]

OK so I know it was probably to good to be true, but I went ahead a ordered 6 RCR123A 3.0v 750mAh LifePo4 batteries with charger from the web site, what I got was 6 Li-Ion RCR123A 3v 750mAh clearly says so all over the packaging and on the batteries themselves. So I compared them to some 3V 750mAh Li-Ions I purchased from them a year ago. The new, so call LifePo4 cells, are identical to those I purchased last year even the packaging and the part # on the package was the same. So I called them and they gave me some story about that they were in fact LiFePo4 but were miss labeled, Yeh right. Needless to say they are going back but I am out the return postage, guess its a case of buyer beware.
Are AW's the real thing??
Tobyjug

 

[barkingmad]

OK so I know it was probably to good to be true, but I went ahead a ordered 6 RCR123A 3.0v 750mAh LifePo4 batteries with charger from the web site, what I got was 6 Li-Ion RCR123A 3v 750mAh clearly says so all over the packaging and on the batteries themselves. So I compared them to some 3V 750mAh Li-Ions I purchased from them a year ago. The new, so call LifePo4 cells, are identical to those I purchased last year even the packaging and the part # on the package was the same. So I called them and they gave me some story about that they were in fact LiFePo4 but were miss labeled, Yeh right. Needless to say they are going back but I am out the return postage, guess its a case of buyer beware.
Are AW's the real thing??
Tobyjug

So do you KNOW for sure they are not LiFEPO4 and not just mis-labelled?

 

[Tobyjug]

These are not loose cells with a description stamped on them, the charger 2 battery combo comes in a fancy Tenergy bubble pack http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1877 with Li-ion all over it which is as I stated has exactly the same part number and is identical in all respects to the one I purchased a year ago, why should I believe it is anything other than Li-Ion. Its up to the supplier to prove what he is shipping what he is advertizing not the customer. The fact that these are half the price for a higher capacity cell than anyone else is also suspicious
Tobyjug

 

[hank]

Well, it's easy to check, right?

Put them in the charger and if they blow up, they were ...

No, wait. Labels matter, especially with these lithium batteries.

 

[barkingmad]

These are not loose cells with a description stamped on them, the charger 2 battery combo comes in a fancy Tenergy bubble pack http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1877 with Li-ion all over it which is as I stated has exactly the same part number and is identical in all respects to the one I purchased a year ago, why should I believe it is anything other than Li-Ion. Its up to the supplier to prove what he is shipping what he is advertizing not the customer. The fact that these are half the price for a higher capacity cell than anyone else is also suspicious
Tobyjug

Perhaps would be better to clear it up with them before you tell everyone they ARE definitely fakes?

Battery Junction are also selling the Tenergy LiFEPO4 batteries that seem to say Li-ion on them - see: http://www.batteryjunction.com/rc375reliba.html

 

[Tobyjug]

I did not say they were fakes, I merely stated that I did not recieve what was adverized
Tobyjug

 

[jrv]

LifePo4 have a nominal voltage of 3.2 volts, not 3.0 volts.

 

[barkingmad]

I did not say they were fakes, I merely stated that I did not recieve what was adverized
Tobyjug

You said:

...they gave me some story about that they were in fact LiFePo4 but were miss labeled, Yeh right.

If you ordered LiFEPO4 cells and received LiFEPO4 cells that were mis-labelled they are still LiFEPO4 cells.

However, I am not saying it is right they are mis-labelled in the first place.

Maybe someone from All-Battery / Battery Junction could help clear this up?

 

[crislight01]

looks like a chinese hoax

 

[MattK]

Okay let's see if we can straighten this out.

Let me start by saying that LiFePo4 IS a type of lithium Ion battery. So assuming they're not LiFePo4 because the wrapper says Li-Ion is a mistake. Before publically defaming a product, seller or nation it's best to do some research and get your facts straight.

Li-Ion is not a single chemistry or type - lithium ion describes generally a few different chemistries or variants including LiFePo4, 'li-poly (of which there are 3-4 chemistries solid polymer, thin film, etc)' and many others with the differences being primarily in the cathode material, electrolyte and construction (bobbin, spinnel).

LiFePo4 switches out the oxide matieral used on a 'regular' l(LiCoO2)i-ion battery for FePO4 which is much more tolerant of abuse.

The product that we are now marketing as LiFePo4 is the same product that we had a year ago - except a year ago there was little to no market awareness of LiFePo4 was so it was pointless to market it as such.

Not to sound like a jerk but this is an issue that could have been put to bed by simply going to Google /Wiki - the information is easily available.

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20020928/fob4.asp

http://repositories.cdlib.org/lbnl/LBNL-54101/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion_battery#Advantages_and_disadvantages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_polymer_cell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery

My thanks to those who have been a voice of reason in this thread and who made me aware of it's existence.

 

[gunga]

Matt,

does that mean that your Tenergy 3.0V Li-ons (750 mah) are actually LiFePo4?

They are advertised as such on all-battery.com

 

[MattK]

Yes, they are and always have been. The RCR123A 900mah cells are LiCoO2.

 

[Tobyjug]

If really is the case then I withdraw the statement, howerver, if the seller had explained that to me when I called in the first place instead of being told that they were mislabeled I would not have been so sceptical. I still find it odd that Tenergy would not label there product as such seeing that Lifepo4 is the current hot ticket and as someone said earlier Nominal voltage for lifepo4 is 3.2v not 3.0v. Other than attempting to blow them up is there any way to tell you are getting Lifepo4 as oposed to the various other chemistries out there??
Tobyjug

 

[hank]

> other than blowing them up

This is a good question.

Someone handed a battery, sometime down the road, wants to know how to charge it. It's a lithium rechargeable 123-size, that's all we know.

What do they do? Is there _any_ way to find out? Something one can do with a multimeter, or other nondestructive testing?

Can you make a "safest" assumption, put the unknown battery in a charger set for _______ volts, and run it for _____ minutes, and then test it with _____ looking for ______ and determine what kind of chemistry cell it is?

 

[MattK]

I know of no way a consumer could ever determine the chemistry of a battery. If it was an unprotected cell you might be able to get some data by simple voltage testing.

As I explained earlier - a year ago there was little to no market awareness of LiFePo4 was so it was pointless to market it as such. Yes, things have changed. Yes, future batches MAY be marked differently for marketing purposes. LiFePo4 is 'hot' as of about 5 minutes ago - we plan our buying in long cycle so while it was easy to change the item on our retail sites changing a label in production is a different story - also, it's not such a simple decision as we already have thousands of batteries/chargers on the market and making a LABEL change might only serve to confuse previous buyers.

"Someone handed a battery, sometime down the road, wants to know how to charge it. "
It's lithium - if you're not sure what you're handling you have no business attempting to charge it. Unless you are an expert only charge lithium ion batteries on the chargers expressly sold to work with them.

Remember folks - the whole 'deal' LiFePo4 is that they are instrinsically much safer than 'traditional' chemistries.

 

[gunga]

Yes, they are and always have been. The RCR123A 900mah cells are LiCoO2.

I guess my confusion was that the LiFEPO4 (750mah Tenergy) are around 3.2V by chemistry, while the LiCoO2 (900 mah Tenergy) use a voltage dropping circuit to acchieve 3.0V.

Is this correct? There is no votage dropping cicruitry in the 750 mah Tenergy right?

 

[MattK]

I am pretty sure that it has the voltage adjusting diode as well - I just tested at 3.2V with no load and 3.07 with load - that's more than sag would account for in the 2 seconds and small (200mah) load I used.

 

[hank]

> if you're not sure what you're handling
> you have no business attempting to charge it.

I doubt people who don't know are going to just throw them away.

You can be sure some customer's kids will find several different kinds of batteries the same size, mixed up in a drawer along with a few chargers, and try them out.

These things need to be kept locked up, given their energy density, like ammunition.

When we were kids it was common play, finding nearly dead batteries and shorting them out to see if there was enough electricity left to make a piece of magnet winding wire vaporize, or using them to start campfires by shorting them with a little bit of steel wool, or making bubbles by putting wires from both ends in a little salt water.

I guess with lithium cells, that'd be verging on Darwin Award material.

Well, common sense is what the survivors have, as experience accumulates.

 

[MattK]

In my experience most people, 'the general public' don't know what a CR123A battery is never mind a rechargeable one.

With great power comes great responsibility. But LiFePo4 is pretty safe. That said people can be incredidbly stupid, reckless, etc. Darwin award indeed.

BTW - the side of the batteries are clearly marked:

DO NOT dispose of in fire. Max explode or leak. DO NOT mix with used or other battery chemistries (rechargeable, Li-Ion).
DO NOT overcharge.

Common sense. Not so common.

 

[hank]

> LiFePo4 ... are instrinsically much safer than 'traditional' chemistries.

Amen. I've held off til now _because_ that's the only kind I want in our house, to be absolutely sure there's no risk during a period of blackout and confusion.

And, yes, we _do_ live near the Hayward Fault ... so I always look at my battery and recharging setup thinking "now, the spouse or neighbor will be trying to get some lights up and handed out, after the big one, if I'm not home at the time, what's the worst thing that could go wrong, if Murphy arrives first."

Our recharging setup for small batteries runs off the big backup batteries, so whoever's here can keep some lights recharged for the neighbors, if needed for ham radio and rescue work after a quake.

Thanks for the serious attention to the risks involved.

I would ask for --- and buy --- batteries and charger labeled explicitly, or packed with info I can use to make labels ---- both the chemistry, and identification of the charger that's safe to use and the specification of the charging process. I realize these chargers don't have unique UL or model numbers (and some don't even stop trickle charging!)

At home, I color-code my labels for quick matching up.

Not because "we" don't know better. But because, you know, stuff happens later on when we're not around -- Murphy is always around.