Alternative automobile fuels

Candle Power Forums

Help Support Candle Power:

You know what I thought of at lunch today? I thought "If we collected all the excess oil on school lunch and ran it in cars, we'd be good for another 100+ years"

This thought popped into my head as a stream (make that river) of greese ran off the pizza and down my hand--ICK!
 
So on another automotive board that I used to frequent, I was told by an SUV driver that our country's economy was based on oil. He didn't want to screw with that, so he was going to burn as much of it as possible for the sake of the good ol' US of A. I am NOT making this up. I could even provide a link, but I'd rather not.
 
Hehe...that's disturbing, darell.

Actually, I remember a bit more about flywheel vehicles. They do indeed look promising on paper, except for the potential of catastrophic failure of the wheel itself (essentially explosion)...usually a carbon-fiber disc requiring very stringent standards of manufacture to minimize the risk of failure, and even then heavy protective chambers to contain explosion and protect from outside impact. Gyroscopic effects don't have to matter if an opposing wheel is used.

A flywheel racecar was indeed developed by Chrysler; the Patriot. It was to run in the World Sports Car (WSC) series in the mid-90's, especially '95. This was the series that developed more or less as a successor to the (sadly) defunct GTP series, and which later became American LeMans. Anyway...the car was electric, powered by a single massive flywheel which in turn was powered by a liquid natural gas (LNG) twin-turbine alternator. It would most likely have been a top competitor, despite early production problems. It died in the face of the catastrophic failure and gyroscopic action issues, deemed not worth the effort to solve at the time. I was very disappointed...I had been hoping to see this beast perform at Road America (the finest track in the country!!!), and once thought that I HAD seen it on the track, but I can find no reference whatsoever to either version of it (there was a Mark II) ever actually racing, so I must have been mistaken.

I recall reading about the powdered hydrogen storage method as well...I think it involved some combination of borax and salt. I also recall some discussion of something dangerous about the setup, but can't remember what.

I think the missing ingredient in the hydrogen-fuel issue, at least as it's discussed today, is solar power. If you get deep enough into the discussion solar usually seems to come out, especially to meet the desire that hydrogen be a 100% "clean" fuel rather than coming ultimately from fossil plants or reformed gasoline. I think that exposes the basic issue--hydrogen is a lovely energy currency, but will we have the energy, and "clean" energy at that? I suspect someday we will (solar? fusion? something else?) Whether battery technology perhaps surpasses fuel cell tech by then...I couldn't guess.

There are, however, fuel cell generators available for the home right now, as well as for commercial applications. Usually they're being offered as alternatives for backup generators, and there is one model that is small and can be wheeled around. It's intended to be used INDOORS in places like hospitals for portable emergency power.

Biodiesel, btw, is a BIG issue here in central Illinois. Soy farmers just love it. I've toyed with the notion of a TDI for some time myself...but I'm loath to give up the joys of my Saab (hi Saaby!)

rusty
 
Originally posted by rrtanton:
I've toyed with the notion of a TDI for some time myself...but I'm loath to give up the joys of my Saab (hi Saaby!)
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you have not already done so, you need to check out Fred's: http://forums.tdiclub.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi
smile.gif
TDI = safe, economical and fun to drive.
 
As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases. Product prices and availability are accurate as of the date/time indicated and are subject to change.
Nice site! Yes...it's so tempting...if I had any gripe about TDI it might be performance, and I see even that can be addressed...and I like modern VWs a lot...it's just...I'm a Saab man! And the new 9-3 seems a car to drool over, if I can come to terms with the "new Saab" that GM is giving us. Maybe Saab would develop a diesel... It's not like they haven't thumbed their nose at conventional engines in the past (2-cycles, yay!) or are afraid of some out-there research (that variable-head-geometry motor...)

rusty
 
I believe it was Tom and Ray on Car Talk who recommend that everyone buy the biggest, gas guzzler they can afford. The reasoning is that they only way we will ever have a viable alternative to oil is if we finally use it up;)

There have been many good articles on Bio-Diesel at http://www.homepower.com/ and it seems definitely like a viable tech. The only problem is that in most places you have to collect and manufacture your own fuel. There are people selling it, but after a certain volume they get embroiled (if they broiled there wouldn't be so much left over fryer oil!) in gas distribution laws and taxes which are remarkably complicated as you might imagine. The manufacture involves the use of, I think if I remember correctly, high concentrations of lye, which is quite nasty if spilled or gotten on you. But the chemicals are not used up in the process and can be used again and again. It's got to be at least as clean as ethanol production which in the midwest was just shut down until they can improve the emissions from some of those plants.
 
Biodiesel, btw, is a BIG issue here in central Illinois. Soy farmers just love it. I've toyed with the notion of a TDI for some time myself...but I'm loath to give up the joys of my Saab (hi Saaby!)

Hi! What kind? May I direct you to---Poll...What do you drive
 
Short answer: '96 900SE...I posted in "what do you drive" with the long answer...

You know, I swear I remember some university developing a lawnmower that would process its own grass clippings, generate methane or something like that, and power itself! Hm. Perhaps we could develop a car that ate bugs?

rusty
 
I was with you all the way up until here:
I think the missing ingredient in the hydrogen-fuel issue, at least as it's discussed today, is solar power. If you get deep enough into the discussion solar usually seems to come out, especially to meet the desire that hydrogen be a 100% "clean" fuel rather than coming ultimately from fossil plants or reformed gasoline. I think that exposes the basic issue--hydrogen is a lovely energy currency, but will we have the energy, and "clean" energy at that? I suspect someday we will (solar? fusion? something else?) Whether battery technology perhaps surpasses fuel cell tech by then...I couldn't guess.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm a bit confused. I don't see hydrogen as a good energy currency, since it is difficult to "mine" and it is relatively difficult to store at the high pressure that is required. Currently, it takes twice as much energy to create a kWh worth of hydrogen as it does to charge a battery. In my mind, it is fuel cell technology that still needs to surpass battery technology, not the other way around. Show me the fuel cell vehicle that can travel more than 60 miles, or one that will cost less to build than an EV, or one that will cost less to fuel than an EV. We already have battery "generators" that can be used indoors safely. And these "generators" can be recharged by plugging them into a live outlet at any time. I'm not sure where you go to buy a Hydrogen "recharge" today. My money is still on batteries - the problem is that nobody else's money is there.

I do think that fuel cells have their place - but I hate to see batteries ignored in the meantime.

TDI folks - if you're worried about diesel performance, you REALLY need to have a ride in my EV1. Bring your Saabs too! I'll clean you all up.
smile.gif
You have one year and 1.5 months to swing by my place. After that, GM crushes the beautiful, goofy thing.
 
"After that, GM crushes the beautiful, goofy thing."

Not if I can't help it...only problem is figuring out how I can help it...
 
What a shame they won't let you keep it! I remember their weird policies about all this...it's almost like the cars are top-secret or something.

Well, my reasoning was/is that if electricity was cheap and plentiful enough, manufacturing hydrogen wouldn't be much of a problem...however, I can certainly see your point--storage also still needs to be worked out, and shrinking the cells. If a modern battery can offer more distance for less weight (and probably less space taken up?) and always take less net electricity to charge up for 100 miles, well that's a long way toward "being there."

I still like fuel cells and am willing to think the fuel cell nuts might come up with something, but no...I haven't forgotten the battery guys and I think they have a LOT to say on the issue (and I like the idea of using just electricity as your recharge rather than a fuel of some sort.) Just read some article a little while ago saying they've worked out a new formulation for the cathode of lithium-based batteries that works as well but costs a quarter of what they used to use... I think there are some broad and complicated issues both with needing to charge up a battery or fill up a hydrogen tank, and they might be part of why fuel cells are so popular at the moment regardless of whether they deserve to be.

And you don't need to sell me on the notion of EV's! I had the enjoyable opportunity to drive a Ford battery version of their european "bread wagon" delivery van...what an interesting experience, dispelled a lot of misconceptions. And as I mentioned above, I know EVs could make viable race cars (guess you know where MY priorities lie...
grin.gif
)

WHaddya think? A lithium-polymer EV2? Me, I'd go for an Electrovette...

rusty
 
"I don't know much about the used vegetable oil fuel other than they did a thing on Channel One (Icky icky icky!) on the kid that came up with it--your (current) car can be converted to it if it's a diesel."
Are you in a country other than the US or is channel one on digital cable?
I still don't understand why channel numbers in the US start with 2 instead of 1.
 
My bad...it's a news program that they show in many, but not all, US Jr, Middle, and High schools. While it's called "Channel One" it is actually broadcasted over a intra-school TV network on channel 3.
 
I was just reading over on
http://forums.tdiclub.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi
about a guy who ran over 100mpg for 6 hours somewhere in North Texas, he said his mileage was pretty bad at that speed, right about 35mpg. Another person ran for over 1000 miles on a single tank of diesel, getting over 60mpg. It is amazing what these cars can do. It's funny to think some people don't want them for performance reasons, how many cars can run at 100mph for 6 hours without serious problems, I would guess not many. In any case I can't wait for mine.
 
Originally posted by James S:
There have been many good articles on Bio-Diesel at http://www.homepower.com/ and it seems definitely like a viable tech. The only problem is that in most places you have to collect and manufacture your own fuel. There are people selling it, but after a certain volume they get embroiled (if they broiled there wouldn't be so much left over fryer oil!) in gas distribution laws and taxes which are remarkably complicated as you might imagine. The manufacture involves the use of, I think if I remember correctly, high concentrations of lye, which is quite nasty if spilled or gotten on you. But the chemicals are not used up in the process and can be used again and again. It's got to be at least as clean as ethanol production which in the midwest was just shut down until they can improve the emissions from some of those plants.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here is my favorite biodiesel forum : http://biodiesel.infopop.net/2/OpenTopic. There's also some good information at www.biodiesel.com and www.biodiesel.org.

The biodiesel I use is manufactured by Worls Energy ( http://www.worldenergy.net/who_we_are.html ). If I recall correctly, it is a byproduct of soap production. ADM is also getting into biodiesel, so I think the age of small commercial opperations is coming to an end. There are still a lot of do-it-yourselfers out there, though. I just don't trust my chemistry skills enough to make my own fuel for a $19,000 car.

When I was test driving commuters in 2000, the TDI's performance was competitive with the competitions. With a chip, intake, larger injectors, a turbo tweak, and/or exhaust modifications you can make them amazing.

P.S. My car is stock except as noted above. I can cruise over 3000' Snoqualmie Pass, east of Seattle, with three other adults and luggage and the cruise control set at 80 mph and still average almost 44 mpg in my daily commute between Seattle and Redmond
cool.gif
 
Back
Top