Arc 4+ problem - help needed!

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Some notes regarding the tail,

If it takes some effort to click/press with your thumb at the boot it's probably not the tail but if you can on the light by pressing lightly on the boot then it could be a tight tail.
 
Koala - it takes some effort at the boot, not light at all. And it just did the click - stay on - finally respond after around 7 - 8 more clicks and turn off behavior. Each click was clearly audible. So it sounds like problem #1 on Henry's list may be the culprit that was not solved by my attempts to dehumidify the head which may not be possible given the relatively high draw of my led.
 
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EchoSierraTwo said:
cool, glad to hear that i am not the only one or AK, could we be the only two? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

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LOL. Maybe. I gave my ARC a careful listen last night, and it does click, allbeit very quietly.
 
Very strange - let it sit for a few minutes - first time turning it on it tends to stay on - then after it "warms up" for 15-20 seconds, it will turn off and then function OK. It also turned on by itself typically when it was sitting for a period of time. Any thoughts on how small differences in temperature could effect the electronics in the switch?
 
Just when I thought I finally had repeatable behavior (let it sit, turn on - stay on - warm up - turn off - functions ok) I turn it on and it simply stays on for at least two minutes unresponsive. Disconnect the battery and when I reconnect I do not get a RFS sequence but a very dim light followed by a very bright light that won't turn off. Still gettting distinct clicks but it simply won't respond to them in any fashion. Just reconnected it again and it is charging away with no signs of responding to any input. Thus far it has been burning for around 5 minutes and with intermittent attempt to get it to respond at all it does nothing. Still have distinct clicks. Finally took the battery off and clicked the switch with a pencil eraser to discharge any static buildup and finally got an RFS sequence and it is now working OK again.

I'll let it sit and see if the prior sit - turn on - lose control for a period of time - gain control pattern can be repeated.

Something is clearly wrong in the circuitry it appears.

Edited to add:

OK - back to the let it sit - run for around 12-20 seconds and regain control pattern. So we've got that pattern, along with sometimes comes on and will not turn off at all followed by a period where normal resets (disconnect, wait for at least 2 minutes, reconnect) do not produce a RFS sequence only a dim light followed by full power that won't turn off.

This is clearly well beyond my feeble mechanical/electrical abilities to resolve.
 
One way to eliminate 90%+ of question about the switch is to power the head without the battery pack and work the switch by hand.The battery supply with intermitant/tranisent(sp)resistance in the ground path may experiance problems. jmh(uneducated)o
Chris /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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Tried to power it up without the tailpiece - same result - which is right now all I get is the dim light followed by bright light and no RFS sequence and it won't turn off. Great - it does however make a nicely finished piece of desk art!
 
the start up sequence you describe seems like what happened to mine when I shimmed the battery too much what it did was preload the swtch too hard and acted like a stuck switch which caused it to come on full bright what peter called "emergency mode" dim start then full bright when power is applied
Chris
I'm not trying to /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dedhorse.gif
 
Christoph - no beating a dead horse at all since right now i have a non functional and unreliable $180 light - at this point I'll try most anything - switches, fixes and voodoo! I cleaned all contacts throughout thoroughly and same results.

I just took the spring out (as suggested above) and that does not achieve sufficient battery contact to establish a connection. Put the spring back in with the aliminum ring with legs, boot and cone and it finally got a RFS sequence again and it, for the time being, is operating OK, but I'm not sure how long it will last.
 
I feel like this is my Arc4+ blog but only by posting exactly what strange things are happening do I have any hope of figuring out what the heck to do to fix it!

So - after my spring removal, reinsertion and getting an RFS sequence the light has been functioning flawlessly this afternoon. I've let it sit, picked it up and it starts up great, switches modes, on and off fine.

And that is exactly my particular dilemma. It seems to function just fine for stretches, then will go on the fritz for an entire morning, then start working again. At this point I'm not sure what to think...
 
Only if you dead-end, you can send it in to me for service.

Please PM.
 
I've got the opposite problem with mine. I'll be happily lighting up the dark and it will suddenly turn off. Nearly always without me touching the switch. I'll just be holding the light and poof, it's off.

When that happens, it then won't turn on for a period of time between 5 seconds and a few minutes. After a wait, I then click the switch, it goes through RFS, then acts normally until the next time.

I have not found a way to make this happen.

I believe this is also an early Rev 1 light. I believe it arrived mid-February.
 
Georget98,

The only way for the Arc4 to go through RFS is if there is a power failure - i.e., the battery is temporarily disconnected. This function is only called during a power failure restart. If your light is going through RFS, it is experiencing a power failure. This can happen when there is a bad battery connection - such as insufficient spring pressure or dirty battery contacts (fairly rare) - basically an intermittent battery connection.

It is curious that there is a time lag after it turns off until it will turn back on as a result of the power failure - after the switch is pressed. After looking at the circuitry and thinking about the problem, I have not come up with a scenario that will produce this behavior. I'll ponder your symptoms and see if I can come up with something.

Henry.
 
HesNot, sorry you having problems with #684. I wish I could have gotten the rev3 ready in time.

--

Like several people have already suggested in this thread, the problem is caused by too much tension in the mechanism. It is not an electronic or software problem. Sorry, no voodoo, just simple mechanics.

When you worked on the tail assembly, you relieved some of the tension. This improved the operation.

Arc4 comes on by itself:

1. Assuming the RFS feature has not been disabled in the options menu, what happens next?

a. If it RFSs, the mechanism is too loose
b. If it comes on by itself and stays on, the mechanism is too tight

Sometimes you may see it light dimmly before the RFS or before it stays on. This is inconsequential to the problem. The dim glow is a product of the Vf of the led and a certain mode in the power supply that is normal. Refer to the table above for the real problem.

Obviously, the tension changes over time. The light can be fine and then a couple of minutes later be too tight. The mechanism is intolerant of normal flexing of the components. This is a design flaw.

For example, the battery flexes with use. When you press the button, the battery is squeezed with several pounds of pressure. This can cause the cell to shorten slightly. If it shortens enough to loose contact, you get one symptom. In your case, it is probably fine while shortened. It is when the cell returns to it's normal length that tension is increased and the switch triggered.

I have seen lights work fine and then a couple of hours later come on by themselves as if possesed.

Other factors such as tempurature causing the metal parts to expand and contract, fatigue causing the parts to become plastic and no longer maintain the same tension during normal use, etc.

Several people have suggested fixes. You need to relieve a slight amount of tension. It could be a mere 10 thousands of an inch. For example, you can reveres the negative gold disk, compress the spring, remove the basket, apply foam retainer instead, squash your battery, etc.

--

Georget, I am also sorry you are having trouble with your Arc4.

The problem you are describing sounds like the battery or another part of the mechanism is loosening (shortening) as you press the button. This is confirmed if the problem is more likely to show after pressing the button especially hard or for a long time (boost mode). The battery (etc) may be shortening and then taking several minutes to return to normal length. If you try to turn it on before then, it may try to RFS again (if it is enabled).

The fix in your case is to add more tension. This can be done by bending the parts, stretching the spring, adding a foam spacer, solder bumps, etc.

Since your case sounds like it is especially mobile, I would also double check to make sure all the parts are installed correctly.


Remember, many problems with the Arc4 come down to an incorrect level of tension in the switch/battery mechanism.

I hope this helps you both.

Peter Gransee
 
Here's a trouble shooting table you can use to help other people with the Arc4:


1. Light comes on by itself

Assuming the RFS feature has not been disabled in the options menu, what happens next?

a. If it RFSs, the mechanism is too loose
b. If it comes on by itself and stays on, the mechanism is too tight

If you just changed the battery and the light comes on and stays on after RFS, test the light without the battery pack using wires to power the head. If it still comes on and stays on, make sure the positive switch contact is not caved in. This can be bent back out with a right angle tool. If it not bent, the switch may be broken (it typically fails in the on position from being dropped).

2. Light shuts off by itself during use.

Assuming the light was nice and bright before it cut out (you don't have a dead battery).

a. the mechanism is too loose

Other symptoms include the light RFSing later on by itself or is worse when the button is pressed hard or for a long time (ie, boost).

3. Light acts strangely when you turn it on.

This includes RFSing when you press the button, dim glows and then staying on, etc.

a. the mechanism is too loose


4. Light turns on but then will not shut off. Later on, it may shut off by itself.

a. mechanism is too tight

The tension is so high, the switch is right on the threshold of being turned on. A slight press (sometimes just brushing it lightly), turns it on. But now it won't turn back off.

A variation of this is the light going into boost on it's own. This may be caused by the battery/forward cavity swelling at high current draws. Usually, for this to happen, the light is at level 1 anyways so the user just sees a light that won't shut off.



btw it is normal for RFS to be proceeded by a dim glow. The presence of a dim glow without RFS suggests that RFS is shut off. Toggle the feature in the options menu. It it is on but all you get is a dim glow (dimmer than L16), check your battery.

For those who work on Arc4s, remember there are actually two "switches" in the switch/battery mechanism.

Peter
 
base problem of ARC4 switch, design is flawed.

Battery length can be shortened by dimpling of cell. This can occur on top and/or bottom of cell. We are only talking about .020in to .040in. For example: JSB protected R123 will not work on most ARC4's w/o mod. it's short by aprox. .040in.

ARC4's intolarance of battery length is further compounded by a floating cell design supported by two weak springs. (gold frnt contact/rear assembly).

there is a very narrow window between too tight and too loose. Gold contacts must continously support up to 1.5amps without loosing contact or RFS/startup cycle will kick-in. Too tight and the front gold platform collapses on microswitch.

evidence is slowly trickling in that front gold contact can collapse without ARC4 being dropped. front microswitch requires a certain amount of space to cycle. All sorts of phantom problems can occur when gold platform collapses.

The new rev3 switch that never was, would have fixed the collasping gold platform.

A flawed design at best. I sure hope new HDS lights has a new design. or the same battery length issues will raise it's ugly head.
 
was the new design ever revealed? Could a rev1 or 2 be modded to a rev3? or similar? Are there any photos of the rev3 inards? Im just curious to see what was done to finally fix the issue.
 
All,

Before all this misinformation gets out of hand, let me state that I was the one who designed and tested the switch mechanism, the electronics and the software for the Acr4. Therefore, I am the person most likely to understand the various failure modes. After reading this, you may do whatever you want, but these are the recommendations from the designer and tester of the Arc4 - excluding the modifications made to the Rev2 - which I never tested or approved. Still, most of what follows will also apply to the Rev2 Arc4.

The switch uses a high impedance circuit to detect the closing of the ED Dome Switch (part number EDSSC1). During manufacture, a liquid flux was used that had an affinity for moisture. If that flux was not completely removed, it would cause a relatively low resistance path across the printed circuit board that would - in effect - short out the switch - specifically when exposed to high humidity. I have personally seen several cases of this. The only permanent fix for this manufacturing defect is to desolder the Positive Contact Spring, desolder the switch, clean the circuit board and switch and then reassemble - using no flux or a non-conductive RMA flux. The fix for this problem takes a skilled person with proper soldering equipment about 15 to 20 minutes. The primary symptoms of this problem are the light turning on by itself, the light refusing to turn off or the light powering up without RFS (when enabled) at a medium brightness. All of these are symptomatic of a switch that is "pressed" - or shorted.

There are two other causes of these same symptoms. The most common of those two is an improperly adjusted Positive Contact Spring (or a damaged Positive Contact Spring) which does not allow space between the switch and the positive contact or a damaged switch. Another thread was referenced earlier in this thread that talks about how to properly adjust the Positive Contact Spring. This adjustment is a mechanical issue. If the spring tension is adjusted too low, the switch will be too sensitive and potentially remain in the "pressed" position after you release the button. If the spring tension is adjusted too high, the button pressure required to "press" the button is higher that necessary. There is a second spring in the button itself that is used to "bias" the Positive Contact Spring and the Negative Contact Gold Disk Spring. It is fixed in pressure (about 3.5 pounds) and should not be changed. The only adjustment to be made should be to the Positive Contact Spring - as described in the aforementioned thread. A damaged switch will not "click" and must be replaced.

Note that after a bezel-down drop from head height or a tail-down drop from head height, the Positive Contact Spring can become "dished". This is considered physical damage to the Positive Contact Spring. Often, this will also damage the switch itself. With careful application of force, the Positive Contact Spring can have the "dish" removed and is thus repairable. A new switch (part number EDSSC1) can be ordered from DigiKey.com.

If there is not enough total pressure applied via the springs - due to improper spring adjustment, manufacturing defects or unauthorized modifications, you may see the symptom of the light resetting (going through RFS if enabled) when turned on or immediately following a button press. This represents a bad battery connection - most likely through lack of total spring pressure on the battery. It can also be caused by dirty battery contacts, but this is not very likely due to the battery contact design.

Note that your Arc4 will always turn on dimly for 5 seconds after applying power (i.e., as part of a reset or changing a battery) - that is a normal part of the reset procedure. If the light then does an RFS (if enabled) and then turns off or just turns off (if RFS is not enabled), the switch was "off" during the reset sequence - i.e, all is well. If, on the other hand, the light remains on at a medium setting, the switch was "on" during the reset and is assumed to be damaged - per the documentation.

The third and only other cause of these same symptoms is if there is a defect on the circuit boards due to improper assembly procedures. If the defect is here, the fix would be way too difficult for the average (or even very experienced) person to fix because the circuit boards are encapsulated in epoxy and thus this problem is considered to be non-fixable.

As you can see, the mechanical mechanism is only one of the several possible causes of these symptoms. If you can clearly hear a click when you press the button and another click when you release the button - faint as it may be, the mechanical mechanism is not the likely culprit. However, since adjusting the Positive Contact Spring is the easiest procedure for the average user to perform, that is the simplest place to start. Cleaning the circuit board and switch (under the Positive Contact Spring) is the second thing to try because it is more difficult - and generally the last resort for the reasons noted above.

When the approved components are properly manufactured, assembled and adjusted, the switch can accommodate the varying battery lengths commonly found. However, when incorrectly manufactured parts are used, when parts are not properly assembled or when parts are not properly adjusted, the switch can exhibit sensitivities to battery length.


For the full "official" documentation from the creator of the Acr4, please read this.

Henry.
 
Thank you Henry for helping us and for giving us these comprehensive Users guide.
Finally somebody who really understands all the functions (and not only parts of it).
What impresses me is that you are supporting this people with your knowledge, even that this may be against your finacial interests.
Thank you.

Also a big thank you to cy, who helped so many people with their lights (and will do in future).

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cy said:The new rev3 switch that never was, would have fixed the collasping gold platform.

A flawed design at best.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I read this many times. You disasembles quite a few switches and I really appreciate your opinion.
My opinion (which is, same as yours, just a single person's opinion) is, that more troubles were caused by not approbriate assembly quality. I see that this switch design needs a very carefuly assembly and quality control, which did not happen all the time.
NewBie has reported several problems caused by that.

Yes, the Rev3 switch might have helped, but it never made it into production and may have had several other problems. We never will know. As you probably know, there is a big difference in between a few prototypes (even when misused) and a 'mass' production.

We must not forget that the big majority of Rev1 worked and still work without any flaw, very unlikely when the design is so bad.
 
The shorting of the switch was a problem that surfaced early in the rev1 manufacturing process. This was corrected by hand soldering the switch to the board after the panel was washed.

As a contractor for Arc, Henry was involved in engineering and testing prototypes per our design schedule. So, of course he would know certain things. Yep, he's smart! He's hardly the originator of the design (otherwise, why didn't he do it without Arc originally). However, and relevant to the current topic, I was privy to actual field results of thousands of these lights. Like I said, most problems involve tension in the mechanism. This type of problem with the dome switch after it left the factory were quite rare (next to zero). If it did happen, of course the switch can be replaced. The volunteer techs are capable of doing this.

Since I doubt seriously that the problem described by either HesNot and Georget are moisture related, this discussion belongs in a more exhaustive thread on all types of problems, not just the topic at hand.

Peter
 
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