Arc Gouging
- Thread starter LEDmodMan
- Start date
Aloft
Enlightened
[ QUOTE ]
2dim said:
I also joined the party too late. Tried to purchase, but lights were on backorder. Now I'd just like to be an owner, to share the fun, not a dealer.
"BTW, though I said I'm not interested in selling, I will accept $1,000,000 for all my ARC AA's (3), and AAA's (4 premium, 1 standard). I'll even throw in new batteries!"
Would they be lithiums...?
[/ QUOTE ]
Lithiums !! Come 'on, I only asked for a million. Do you think I'm made of money? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
2dim said:
I also joined the party too late. Tried to purchase, but lights were on backorder. Now I'd just like to be an owner, to share the fun, not a dealer.
"BTW, though I said I'm not interested in selling, I will accept $1,000,000 for all my ARC AA's (3), and AAA's (4 premium, 1 standard). I'll even throw in new batteries!"
Would they be lithiums...?
[/ QUOTE ]
Lithiums !! Come 'on, I only asked for a million. Do you think I'm made of money? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[ QUOTE ]
First, I can't believe that a CPF member edition Arc 'aaa' sold on Ebay for $150... I know I'm not the only one who was shocked at that. Someone REALLY must have wanted it!
But then for some people here start to post various member editions in the B/S/T forums for the same ridiculous amount of $150 that the auctioned Ebull one went for is just plain ludicrous. That's just not in the spirit of CPF, in my very humble opinion; very bad taste.
It's one thing to make a few bucks, but charging nearly 4 times what the light originally cost, please! Nice way to stick it to your neighborly CPF friends.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
LEDmodMan said:
I'm glad to see that this thread has kept a civilized tone. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Especially considering how you started it off.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif
First, I can't believe that a CPF member edition Arc 'aaa' sold on Ebay for $150... I know I'm not the only one who was shocked at that. Someone REALLY must have wanted it!
But then for some people here start to post various member editions in the B/S/T forums for the same ridiculous amount of $150 that the auctioned Ebull one went for is just plain ludicrous. That's just not in the spirit of CPF, in my very humble opinion; very bad taste.
It's one thing to make a few bucks, but charging nearly 4 times what the light originally cost, please! Nice way to stick it to your neighborly CPF friends.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
LEDmodMan said:
I'm glad to see that this thread has kept a civilized tone. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Especially considering how you started it off.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif
nerdgineer
Flashlight Enthusiast
I think this thread has shown that some people around here can type a lot faster than other people...
Flashlightboy
Enlightened
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2001
- Messages
- 856
2dim,
I did read your post carefully and did so several times before posting. I used the word world destruction since it seemed to summarize where this free market idea is taking us if it isn't held in some sort of check on BST. Hyperbole. A written caricature if you will.
My point being that this is friggin flashlights. It's not life and it isn't death. If someone wants to sell their light for $150 here or on ebay or in some other manner they have my blessing for selling at the best price available.
I don't see how the Golden Rule or religion comes into this. If the Lord Almighty were so terribly peeved by all of this I suppose he would've made sure Arc didn't go out of business.
You mentioned my self imposed restrictions? Clue me in on what they are because I'm just not getting what you meant. I'm not trying to be obtrusive I just don't know what you're trying to say. Help me understand you.
I did read your post carefully and did so several times before posting. I used the word world destruction since it seemed to summarize where this free market idea is taking us if it isn't held in some sort of check on BST. Hyperbole. A written caricature if you will.
My point being that this is friggin flashlights. It's not life and it isn't death. If someone wants to sell their light for $150 here or on ebay or in some other manner they have my blessing for selling at the best price available.
I don't see how the Golden Rule or religion comes into this. If the Lord Almighty were so terribly peeved by all of this I suppose he would've made sure Arc didn't go out of business.
You mentioned my self imposed restrictions? Clue me in on what they are because I'm just not getting what you meant. I'm not trying to be obtrusive I just don't know what you're trying to say. Help me understand you.
tvodrd
*Flashaholic* ,
At some price point forgery becomes profitable! Maybe we will see a for-profit authentication company started. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Larry
Larry
The idea of trying to buy an Arc and getting a tvodrd light instead reminds me of the original use of platinum in ancient Rome. As far as they were concerned, platinum was this useless white metal that was often found around gold mines. So they used it to counterfeit silver coins...
nerdgineer
Flashlight Enthusiast
The forgery comment kind of reminds of the (for those who are REAL middle aged) old "Paul is dead" rumor in the 70's regarding Paul McCartney of this rock band called the Beatles (very popular back then). Someone thought that he had died and been replaced by a double - now this was while they were touring in concert and all. Someone else eventually made the comment that if they could find someone who could look like him, play like him, sing like him, etc., then that person might as well go out and start his own band.
Making an Arc copy which could pass even a cursory examination for appearance, brightness, color, finish, etc. (never mind run time testing) would take a LOT of work. If you could do that, I think you might as well gear up from real production and just sell the things.
We're not talking denim jeans here...
Making an Arc copy which could pass even a cursory examination for appearance, brightness, color, finish, etc. (never mind run time testing) would take a LOT of work. If you could do that, I think you might as well gear up from real production and just sell the things.
We're not talking denim jeans here...
I came across a counterfeit Arc AAA several months ago...it was made out of brass, the LED bulb stuck out 2 millimeters beyond the bezel, atrocious beamspot, and really, really blue light coming out of the white LED.
Actually, I suppose it wasn't a true counterfeit since it didn't have "Arc" anywhere on it. I think it went for atleast what the Arc AAA was listed for at the time.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
Actually, I suppose it wasn't a true counterfeit since it didn't have "Arc" anywhere on it. I think it went for atleast what the Arc AAA was listed for at the time.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
Topper
Flashaholic*
Sargent Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band?
The one and only Billy Shears?
I am old.
Topper /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
The one and only Billy Shears?
I am old.
Topper /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
DaGunn
Newly Enlightened
Dang, this gouging thread has made me itchy to unload a couple of new ARC AAAs on B/S/T... at a profit, no less... God Bless America, Capitalism, and Single Malts.
Dave
Dave
2dim
Enlightened
First, I don't see this thread as intended to tell individuals what they should do, much less a suggestion to revise official B/S/T policy so as to restrict them. It's the Cafe, after all, which is where members are generally free to share their personal opinions, hopefully without getting slammed for doing so.
Second, my dictionary definition of "ghouls" is "spirits preying on corpses".
Second, my dictionary definition of "ghouls" is "spirits preying on corpses".
gadget_lover
Flashaholic
[ QUOTE ]
coachbigdog said:
I don't know why I'm posting this again,as last time few understood what was being said.But here we go again:What some fail to see when talking about "how much is too much" or what is "price gouging",is that people aren't saying it's wrong.They are just saying that as a member of CPF,some feel that prices should be "better" than on Ebay or the open market.There is nothing wrong with putting something on Ebay and it selling a thousand times the value if that's what someone is willing to pay.But as a member of CPF we should make lights available at a reasonable price.It's like this:Sure you can make an Arc AAA available on BST for $150 and maybe that's not exactly "wrong",but it sure cuts out some of your "friends" on CPF from being able to have a chance at buying it.
[/ QUOTE ]
This arguement only holds water if EVERYONE is selling on CPF at cost. If I sell a light at cost (the original price plus tax plus shipping) to you, but you never sell anything to anyone at any price, then all that's happened is I've given you a gift. Giving strangrs gifts is a nice thing to do if you are a friend, but not really necessary by any standards.
You would not expect me to sell you my $600,000 house for only $125,000 simply because that's what I paid, and you are a fellow CPF member, right?
If you expect bargins from CPF, that's based on YOUR expectations. It's not in the CPF rules. I don't expect bargains but I do expect to find lights and parts that are not readily available outside CPF.
If you want bargins, keep an eye on the B/S/T group buys and chip in your share to make it happen.
Hmmm. It's late. Getting grouchy.
Sleep well and please take no offense. We just have different expectations.
Daniel
coachbigdog said:
I don't know why I'm posting this again,as last time few understood what was being said.But here we go again:What some fail to see when talking about "how much is too much" or what is "price gouging",is that people aren't saying it's wrong.They are just saying that as a member of CPF,some feel that prices should be "better" than on Ebay or the open market.There is nothing wrong with putting something on Ebay and it selling a thousand times the value if that's what someone is willing to pay.But as a member of CPF we should make lights available at a reasonable price.It's like this:Sure you can make an Arc AAA available on BST for $150 and maybe that's not exactly "wrong",but it sure cuts out some of your "friends" on CPF from being able to have a chance at buying it.
[/ QUOTE ]
This arguement only holds water if EVERYONE is selling on CPF at cost. If I sell a light at cost (the original price plus tax plus shipping) to you, but you never sell anything to anyone at any price, then all that's happened is I've given you a gift. Giving strangrs gifts is a nice thing to do if you are a friend, but not really necessary by any standards.
You would not expect me to sell you my $600,000 house for only $125,000 simply because that's what I paid, and you are a fellow CPF member, right?
If you expect bargins from CPF, that's based on YOUR expectations. It's not in the CPF rules. I don't expect bargains but I do expect to find lights and parts that are not readily available outside CPF.
If you want bargins, keep an eye on the B/S/T group buys and chip in your share to make it happen.
Hmmm. It's late. Getting grouchy.
Sleep well and please take no offense. We just have different expectations.
Daniel
2dim
Enlightened
This is not just about B/S/T prices compared to those on Ebay. It's come up now because of recent events. Market fervor can rapidly become infectious. Sometimes stock markets actually shut down trading on some stocks for that very reason. Certainly everything will slow down and stabilize in time. I do appreciate the opportunity to discuss what might be considered the wider implications, and other aspects of our interactions, here on CPF and elsewhere. Thanks to all for your honest thoughtful input.
Sigman
* The Arctic Moderator *
[ QUOTE ]
2dim said:
First, I don't see this thread as intended to tell individuals what they should do, much less a suggestion to revise official B/S/T policy so as to restrict them. It's the Cafe, after all, which is where members are generally free to share their personal opinions, hopefully without getting slammed for doing so.
Second, my dictionary definition of "ghouls" is "spirits preying on corpses".
[/ QUOTE ]
--------------------
You're absolutely correct! As long as a member's post is within the CPF rules & policies, they shouldn't be getting "slammed". Typically before they get "slammed", a "trend" has been established of "pushing, testing, or exceeding the limits" of those established rules & policies. Then it's discussed by "several" Mods & Admins before any action takes place (unless a blatant rule violation has occurred) in reference to a member's status.
It's happened in the past, and I'm sure it's going to happen again! There's over 6000 registered members here and who knows how many lurkers. I believe the CPF is an anomaly on today's WWW. It's not that way totally by accident either...a lot of work (worldwide and 24/7) goes on behind the scenes!
We certainly appreciate all of those who try and keep it as special as it is!
Now back towards the "original" topic...The CPF B/S/T Forums are merely a medium which members can use to B/S/T items. We have certain "policies" (posted in a sticky at the top of the threads), as well as the main CPF Rules, Policies, & Frequently Asked Questions.
Just as a newspaper wouldn't tell a seller what price they can or can't sell an item for, neither will we. The market pretty much "presents itself" throughout the threads...one will know if an item is marked too high, as it won't sell. If it's marked incredibly low or even "reasonable" it will typically sell fast!
I won't give my personal opinion on what another wants to ask for his item, but just have to say this...I think we all are a bit suprised at what certain items have been selling for recently! On top of that, those items are being "snatched up" quickly! It's certainly (my I say "certainly" a lot!), entertaining...but no one should be letting it affect them, their attitude, or life! It's just a sale of an inanimate object...geesh, the emotions that are flying around here...really entertaining! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Thanks for the show!
2dim said:
First, I don't see this thread as intended to tell individuals what they should do, much less a suggestion to revise official B/S/T policy so as to restrict them. It's the Cafe, after all, which is where members are generally free to share their personal opinions, hopefully without getting slammed for doing so.
Second, my dictionary definition of "ghouls" is "spirits preying on corpses".
[/ QUOTE ]
--------------------
You're absolutely correct! As long as a member's post is within the CPF rules & policies, they shouldn't be getting "slammed". Typically before they get "slammed", a "trend" has been established of "pushing, testing, or exceeding the limits" of those established rules & policies. Then it's discussed by "several" Mods & Admins before any action takes place (unless a blatant rule violation has occurred) in reference to a member's status.
It's happened in the past, and I'm sure it's going to happen again! There's over 6000 registered members here and who knows how many lurkers. I believe the CPF is an anomaly on today's WWW. It's not that way totally by accident either...a lot of work (worldwide and 24/7) goes on behind the scenes!
We certainly appreciate all of those who try and keep it as special as it is!
Now back towards the "original" topic...The CPF B/S/T Forums are merely a medium which members can use to B/S/T items. We have certain "policies" (posted in a sticky at the top of the threads), as well as the main CPF Rules, Policies, & Frequently Asked Questions.
Just as a newspaper wouldn't tell a seller what price they can or can't sell an item for, neither will we. The market pretty much "presents itself" throughout the threads...one will know if an item is marked too high, as it won't sell. If it's marked incredibly low or even "reasonable" it will typically sell fast!
I won't give my personal opinion on what another wants to ask for his item, but just have to say this...I think we all are a bit suprised at what certain items have been selling for recently! On top of that, those items are being "snatched up" quickly! It's certainly (my I say "certainly" a lot!), entertaining...but no one should be letting it affect them, their attitude, or life! It's just a sale of an inanimate object...geesh, the emotions that are flying around here...really entertaining! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Thanks for the show!
14C
Enlightened
CPF IS an anomaly...good choice of words.
A great one.
People are bound to behave in certain ways...no surprise.
Why the big discussion?
A great one.
People are bound to behave in certain ways...no surprise.
Why the big discussion?
Re: Arc Prices?
I say when in doubt eBay it! There is no better way I can think of to get the market price for an item. I thank you, darkzero, for putting it up on eBay instead of just asking $150 outright here on the CPF, mud has probably been untouched because of your decision.
I say when in doubt eBay it! There is no better way I can think of to get the market price for an item. I thank you, darkzero, for putting it up on eBay instead of just asking $150 outright here on the CPF, mud has probably been untouched because of your decision.
bhds
Enlightened
[ QUOTE ]
Sigman said:
... but just have to say this...I think we all are a bit suprised at what certain items have been selling for recently! On top of that, those items are being "snatched up" quickly! It's certainly (my I say "certainly" a lot!), entertaining...but no one should be letting it affect them, their attitude, or life! It's just a sale of an inanimate object...geesh, the emotions that are flying around here...really entertaining! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Thanks for the show!
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Sigman said:
... but just have to say this...I think we all are a bit suprised at what certain items have been selling for recently! On top of that, those items are being "snatched up" quickly! It's certainly (my I say "certainly" a lot!), entertaining...but no one should be letting it affect them, their attitude, or life! It's just a sale of an inanimate object...geesh, the emotions that are flying around here...really entertaining! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Thanks for the show!
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
js
Flashlight Enthusiast
[ QUOTE ]
Kiessling said:
The B/S/T isn't a place of friendship and support, it is a place of business. We're not a small community of friends either, we're big nowadays, and we're more and more about business. Like it or not, this is the cruel reality.
Like many already said ... you're free to sell and buy at whatever price you like.
And just imagine ... some one offers a highly sought after light at a very fair price only to see it reappear hours later for much more ... and don't tell me this won't happen.
[ QUOTE ]
Some CPF members buy lights as collectors. I believe they are entitled to sell the lights for whatever the market will bear. I have been in a position many times to sell something on CPF for more that it would be worth if it were available in ample supply. I have never gouged or taken advantage of this position, IMHO, but that was out of choice, not some community obligation, again IMHO.
[/ QUOTE ]
Of course, McGizmo hit the nail once again square in the head ... you always have the choice among friends and fellow flashaholics to sell at a lower price which lots of us actually do, especially behind the scenes.
I am very much against a group pressure though that condemns the ones who want to make a profit. With CPF's structure nowadays (sponsors, banners, B/S/T, custom runs,...) we are not really in a moral position to demand this.
And besides, I see a lot of great people help out others here, either officially or inofficially, I see a lot of donations, raffle items etc. to make me proud of this community. Just thought it was necessary to mention this as well.
bernhard
P.S.: a stamp colelctor would laugh is *** off reading this thread /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crackup.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Need I mention that the first statement which I emphasized in bold face type IS a moral statement and a demand for a moral tone (or lack thereof). Sorry but we are all free to take whatever moral stance we would like to take.
Also, sorry, but again, I see no reason to kowtow to your assignation of what B/S/T is or should be. We all, and our individual attitudes, collectively make B/S/T what it is. I love this self-contradictory non-sense. I've seen it so many times. The first time, was when someone was saying that the world shouldn't be concerned with saving endangered species because it was just evolution and survival of the fitest--which left no place for morality. Yet, he was morally condemning those who worked to save and support endangered species!
Just because B/S/T and CPF may look as if it is becoming "big-time" and "business-like" does not mean that we should all become lemmings and walk off the cliff. That said, however, I will quickly point out that I don't think there is anything wrong with making a reasonable profit! Especially those who invested in Arc products and set them aside to sell later--they speculated, and they deserve to make good on that speculation. Nonetheless, there is a point at which a person is taking undue advantage of a psychological situation, and there is always backlash when this happens. Just as when a high pressure car salesman uses all the tricks to induce people to buy without proper consideration; to buy when with a little reflection they would NOT buy. Weeks or months later, the buyer has rather unfriendly feelings towards the seller, because he KNOWS that he was taken advantage of. And he learns from this, of course, and hardens himself against these tactics for the next time. The sales person may not care; may think that he will never again see the buyer and that it's a dog-eat-dog world--but he is wrong! We reap what we sow.
Also, it is simply NOT in the long-term best interest of the car dealership or automotive repair shop (or any other purveyor) to do business this way. Ever notice how eager people are to know what mechanic you use, and whether or not he is honest? That's because it is worth far more to know that you will be dealing with an honest and principled and MORAL individual, who will not take advantage of you (but who will take care to make a reaonable profit to cover his time and investment), than it is to know that it's all a "FREE" market and heck, we can all take advantage of each other and be all street smart and maybe screw over more people than screw us over. No. The great majority of people don't want or like that situation, and real civilization is all about ameliorating or reversing this so-called "natural" condition. Personally, I believe it is not natural, but rather decadent.
When you treat someone fairly in business, even when you have the chance to fleece them, they will remember it and they will pass it on. You'd be very surprised about how powerful word of mouth still is in this overly advertised world. This is why we have the Cheers and Jeers forum, right? We all want to know what kind of seller we are dealing with, don't we? And do we want to deal with a "pure free-enterprise capitalist" or with someone more along the lines of a friend?
And, bernhard, I don't think that you personally conduct yourself or your buying and selling this way, do you?
If B/S/T or modders B/S/T ever really DOES become purely a place of free-market hard-nosed business, you can be sure that you will not see me doing any more custom work there. I will take it "behind the scenes". But at the moment, in my opinion, CPF is "behind the scenes" and I have been continually surprised at the calibre of people here. We are a family of sorts, and for the present no one will convince me otherwise, either by bald assertion, or by some perverse moral argument, that a moral stance is unacceptable (!).
Kiessling said:
The B/S/T isn't a place of friendship and support, it is a place of business. We're not a small community of friends either, we're big nowadays, and we're more and more about business. Like it or not, this is the cruel reality.
Like many already said ... you're free to sell and buy at whatever price you like.
And just imagine ... some one offers a highly sought after light at a very fair price only to see it reappear hours later for much more ... and don't tell me this won't happen.
[ QUOTE ]
Some CPF members buy lights as collectors. I believe they are entitled to sell the lights for whatever the market will bear. I have been in a position many times to sell something on CPF for more that it would be worth if it were available in ample supply. I have never gouged or taken advantage of this position, IMHO, but that was out of choice, not some community obligation, again IMHO.
[/ QUOTE ]
Of course, McGizmo hit the nail once again square in the head ... you always have the choice among friends and fellow flashaholics to sell at a lower price which lots of us actually do, especially behind the scenes.
I am very much against a group pressure though that condemns the ones who want to make a profit. With CPF's structure nowadays (sponsors, banners, B/S/T, custom runs,...) we are not really in a moral position to demand this.
And besides, I see a lot of great people help out others here, either officially or inofficially, I see a lot of donations, raffle items etc. to make me proud of this community. Just thought it was necessary to mention this as well.
bernhard
P.S.: a stamp colelctor would laugh is *** off reading this thread /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crackup.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Need I mention that the first statement which I emphasized in bold face type IS a moral statement and a demand for a moral tone (or lack thereof). Sorry but we are all free to take whatever moral stance we would like to take.
Also, sorry, but again, I see no reason to kowtow to your assignation of what B/S/T is or should be. We all, and our individual attitudes, collectively make B/S/T what it is. I love this self-contradictory non-sense. I've seen it so many times. The first time, was when someone was saying that the world shouldn't be concerned with saving endangered species because it was just evolution and survival of the fitest--which left no place for morality. Yet, he was morally condemning those who worked to save and support endangered species!
Just because B/S/T and CPF may look as if it is becoming "big-time" and "business-like" does not mean that we should all become lemmings and walk off the cliff. That said, however, I will quickly point out that I don't think there is anything wrong with making a reasonable profit! Especially those who invested in Arc products and set them aside to sell later--they speculated, and they deserve to make good on that speculation. Nonetheless, there is a point at which a person is taking undue advantage of a psychological situation, and there is always backlash when this happens. Just as when a high pressure car salesman uses all the tricks to induce people to buy without proper consideration; to buy when with a little reflection they would NOT buy. Weeks or months later, the buyer has rather unfriendly feelings towards the seller, because he KNOWS that he was taken advantage of. And he learns from this, of course, and hardens himself against these tactics for the next time. The sales person may not care; may think that he will never again see the buyer and that it's a dog-eat-dog world--but he is wrong! We reap what we sow.
Also, it is simply NOT in the long-term best interest of the car dealership or automotive repair shop (or any other purveyor) to do business this way. Ever notice how eager people are to know what mechanic you use, and whether or not he is honest? That's because it is worth far more to know that you will be dealing with an honest and principled and MORAL individual, who will not take advantage of you (but who will take care to make a reaonable profit to cover his time and investment), than it is to know that it's all a "FREE" market and heck, we can all take advantage of each other and be all street smart and maybe screw over more people than screw us over. No. The great majority of people don't want or like that situation, and real civilization is all about ameliorating or reversing this so-called "natural" condition. Personally, I believe it is not natural, but rather decadent.
When you treat someone fairly in business, even when you have the chance to fleece them, they will remember it and they will pass it on. You'd be very surprised about how powerful word of mouth still is in this overly advertised world. This is why we have the Cheers and Jeers forum, right? We all want to know what kind of seller we are dealing with, don't we? And do we want to deal with a "pure free-enterprise capitalist" or with someone more along the lines of a friend?
And, bernhard, I don't think that you personally conduct yourself or your buying and selling this way, do you?
If B/S/T or modders B/S/T ever really DOES become purely a place of free-market hard-nosed business, you can be sure that you will not see me doing any more custom work there. I will take it "behind the scenes". But at the moment, in my opinion, CPF is "behind the scenes" and I have been continually surprised at the calibre of people here. We are a family of sorts, and for the present no one will convince me otherwise, either by bald assertion, or by some perverse moral argument, that a moral stance is unacceptable (!).
