Are 9006/9005 on the way out?

[Alaric Darconville]

What with the 9012 and 9011 out there (although not a direct replacement for the 9006/9005, they can be easily made to fit), and with the seemingly bewildering array of other lamps being used in new vehicles, is it safe to say that the 9006 and 9005 are on their way out?

One reason to ask this is: "Why don't Philips and Toshiba make HIR 9006 and 9005 bulbs?" Surely there's a way to construct a filament of the correct size in one such that the wattage requirement is greatly reduced, yet the output is the same as a standard 9006.

The bulbs could then be offered as an eco-friendly alternative for reduced vehicle emissions (fleet-wide, that could make a difference for large company), and could help solve problems such as voltage sag from too-thin factory wires flowing the current needed for the standard wattage bulbs.

Or does this boil down to "it can't be a 9005 if it's not 65W, and it can't be a 9006 if it's not 55W?" (I'd think that those would be the MAXIMUM nominal wattages, anyway.)

I suppose the 9005/9006 aren't completely dead if Philips is making the X-Treme Power version of them, and I see Toyota at least is still using them in the Corollas. (And once you drive a Toyota, you'll never stop!)

 

[csa]

+1 to the toyota comment.

I'm curious about the same thing. Automotive lighting has always puzzled me. I blame the DOT.

 

[Diesel_Bomber]

I have no clue whether the bulbs are on their way out, just thought your "Once you drive a Toyota, you'll never stop!" comment was hilarious, given Toyota's recent gas pedal problems.

Don't get me wrong, I have two Toyotas myself and would feel completely safe driving any of their lineup. Anyone who doesn't know to SHIFT INTO NEUTRAL if the gas pedal sticks has no business driving, period.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

I've got an '01 Corolla and a '95 Previa-- both great cars.

I probably shouldn't have cracked that joke-- it's inviting a thread derailment...

There are other cars that also use the 9006/9005 combination out there. I just think it'd be interesting to get a real "eco" light (other than the fact that they use fused quartz and might take more energy to create than they'd save over the life of the bulb, but at least that's energy used in a different and more efficient point in the product's life).

 

[-Virgil-]

is it safe to say that the 9006 and 9005 are on their way out?

No. The H11 has almost supplanted the 9006 in new low beam designs, because while it is conceptually identical (single axial filament, 55w nominal power, optimized for lifespan, self-sealing base) it is better in every way (better flux, luminance, lifespan, filament precision, base precision and sealing, and a metal-free region around the filament for better beam focus). The 9005 has not been pushed out of new designs by the H9 nearly as fast, because while most of the advantages of H9 over 9005 are analogous to those of the H11 over the 9006, the relatively low priority on high beams (especially in the North American market) means 9005's lower cost holds sway.

"Why don't Philips and Toshiba make HIR 9006 and 9005 bulbs?"

That's a good question. A compliant HIR 9006 would consume roughly 35w, and a compliant HIR 9005 would consume roughly 50w, both at 12.8v. That would be a substantial reduction in power consumption compared to ordinary 9005 and 9006 bulbs. The Philips EcoVision bulbs are wattage-reduced and lumen-compliant, but do not use HIR technology. Reduced fuel consumption and CO2 emissions are obvious benefits of lower wattage, but an additional advantage is the reduction in voltage drop across any given circuit without having to improve wiring, add relays, etc.

Or does this boil down to "it can't be a 9005 if it's not 65W, and it can't be a 9006 if it's not 55W?" (I'd think that those would be the MAXIMUM nominal wattages, anyway.)

You're correct—the specs do not contain a minimum wattage, just a nominal and maximum.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

Reduced fuel consumption and CO2 emissions are obvious benefits of lower wattage, but an additional advantage is the reduction in voltage drop across any given circuit without having to improve wiring, add relays, etc.

And that is probably my biggest reason for suggesting such a product in my initial post.

I see that there is a potential market for "eco-HIR" 9006 bulbs. They'd have other advantages in vehicles used with their lights on for long periods of time at idle, such as taxicabs and delivery vehicles, too. (I notice that in the Previa the Scanguage II shows that at times, when the idle is around 650rpm and the air conditioning fans are on maximum, system voltage is about 12.3-12.5V. I can only imagine that the battery is not getting charged very well at all, and the ignition system is also starved for power. With headlights on, the problem is worsened-- lower wattage bulbs could mitigate that, and not just in the Previa, but most vehicles because alternator output is minimal below 1500rpm.)

 

[Qship1996]

All incandescent bulbs are on their way out as factory equipped HID trickles further down into less expensive cars every year, and LED headlamps slowly gain popularity over time- I bet in 5 years no new car will come with incandescent headlamps.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

I bet in 5 years no new car will come with incandescent headlamps.

I disagree -- the tooling is already in place to crank out tungsten-halogen bulbs, and there's also a large installed base of those bulbs. This keeps bulb costs very low. It's a proven technology. Consider how long it took composite headlamps to overtake sealed beams-- even as late as model year '94 they were still an option for certain vehicles, such as the Toyota Tercel (and maybe later than that for other vehicles), but composite headlights were introduced in '84.

HID is overall more complicated, what with ballasts and such, that they're still way more expensive to implement. LED even more so, I would expect.

I predict that it will be HID that goes away in favor of LED, with halogen still remaining in some vehicles just due to the utility and low expense.

One company, Translec, is making LED train headlights.

 

[-Virgil-]

All incandescent bulbs are on their way out as factory equipped HID trickles further down into less expensive cars every year, and LED headlamps slowly gain popularity over time- I bet in 5 years no new car will come with incandescent headlamps.

You lose that bet. There will still be lots of incandescent headlamps on new vehicles in five years. The market share of incandescent will not go from ~75% (today) to 0% in five years. LEDs will gradually begin to erode incandescent market share as inexpensive implementations are developed and put into volume production, and the new 25w Xenon system will take market share away as well, but the incandescent bulb is going to be with us for quite awhile to come.

Remember, back in 1990 everyone who had an opinion that counted was saying HIDs would have a 70% market share within 10 years. The prevalence of HIDs currently (20 years after the prediction) stands at about 30% in Europe, 40% in Japan, and 15% in North America. There's a lesson here.

 

[-Virgil-]

I predict that it will be HID that goes away in favor of LED, with halogen still remaining in some vehicles just due to the utility and low expense.

Exactly right. The 25w HID system will extend the market presence of HID headlamps even once LED cost begins to come down, but in the long run HID will be seen in retrospect as a transitional technology.

 

[FA5Si]

Exactly right. The 25w HID system will extend the market presence of HID headlamps even once LED cost begins to come down, but in the long run HID will be seen in retrospect as a transitional technology.

What is the benefit of a 25W HID set-up? Wouldn't you still need all the same (relatively expensive) hardware of a 35W application?

 

[blasterman]

You lose that bet.

Do you have a time machine or something, or a Euro certified crystal ball? Can you pick some lotto numbers for me Mr. Wells? :nana:

If current incan technology is 'proven', why do we have to change the damn things so often? Why do we have to choose between illumination values that rated in hundreds of hours for MTF?

Remember, back in 1990 everyone who had an opinion that counted was saying HIDs would have a 70% market share within 10 years.

In 1990 you didn't have Asian car markets exploding, engineering talent moving en-masse to other hemispheres, and Western Car makers on the virge of extinction. The heavy truck industry in India for example is growing at 240%. You think they give a crap about European headlamp specifications? It's all about you when it isn't.

The shift to LED technology will not be gradual. It will be exponential once the technology is established because that's the way the market is headed. In five years the British or German or American guy standing in the Audi dealership getting a free cappuccino and deciding between the premium HID package won't matter. He will not be detemining choices because he will no longer be a determining market segment. Buyers in South America, China and India will be determining the technology, and they sure as hell won't care about 100 hour Premium halogen bulbs. Britannia will not rule again (and neither will Detroit).

In 1990 the marketing model for cars was still based on build it first, then figure out how to market it. This is changing - rapidly. Asian markets adapt quicker and their production deltas occur at light speed. The tens of millions of customers they will be selling to won't care about European road standards or or American nostalgia.

Reading this you'd think you guys determine technology or something.....arrogant.

 

[Diesel_Bomber]

Sealed beams are still available on many brand-new work truck type vehicles as a way to cut purchase cost. Even outside of the work truck market, there is a vast market for cheap dependability that'll get the job done.

The glowing filament will be staying with us for a very long time.

 

[Random Guy]

Sealed beams are still available on many brand-new work truck type vehicles as a way to cut purchase cost. Even outside of the work truck market, there is a vast market for cheap dependability that'll get the job done.

The glowing filament will be staying with us for a very long time.

I expect some of the people who get the sealed beams also use their vehicles in environments where there is a higher than average chance of a headlamp being broken, and sealed beams are cheaper, more readily available, and more easily replaced than composite headlamps.

 

[-Virgil-]

What is the benefit of a 25W HID set-up?

Better beam performance, longer lifespan, and lower power consumption than halogen, lower cost and lighter system weight than 35w HID (no lens cleaner system required in Europe, which means no heavy/bulky washer fluid tank).

 

[-Virgil-]

Do you have a time machine or something

Yeah, but it's in the shop and those jerks are still saying they can't get parts to fix the primary Heisenberg compensator array. I meant to call the Better Business Bureau about it today, but ran out of time.

or a Euro certified crystal ball?

Thought I had one of those, too -- bought it off eBay -- but it turned out to be a Chinese counterfeit.

Can you pick some lotto numbers for me

Yep. (Will I? Nope.)

If current incan technology is 'proven'

"If" it's proven? An installed base of billions of the bloomin' things all over the world for the last century, and you're asking "if" they're proven?

why do we have to change the damn things so often?

Because they burn out. Duh. Speaking of which, the one above your head appears to need replacement. Looks like it's been dead awhile, too.

Why do we have to choose between illumination values that rated in hundreds of hours for MTF?

Ooh, sorry, form of a question, please! To be a valid question, it has to be a complete sentence.

In 1990 you didn't have Asian car markets exploding

Yeah, we did -- different ones than are presently doing so, is all. Guess you must not have been there.

engineering talent moving en-masse to other hemispheres

We had that, too. (Psst! There's no hyphen in the phrase "en masse".)

Western Car makers on the virge of extinction.

You mean like…these ones? (Psst! There's no such thing as a "virge".)

The heavy truck industry in India for example is growing at 240%.

That's a fact. And here's another: each and every one of the trucks they produce has incandescent headlights. That supports my point, not your guess.

You think they give a crap about European headlamp specifications?

Not at the moment; right now they give a crap about Indian headlamp specifications (duh!), which are photometrically very similar to the European specifications with some construction requirements similar to the U.S. specifications. There's a migration path and timeline in place for India to adopt the European specification, and at that time the heavy truck industry in India will be legally required to give a crap about the European headlamp specification.

(delete a bunch of handwaving, inapposite babble from someone who thinks he's an expert from having read an article about cool whiz-bang future neato LED technology in USA Today or something)

Reading this you'd think you guys determine technology or something

Perhaps that's what came to your, um, mind and prompted your little tantrum here, but a person adult enough to acknowledge what they don't know because they're neither in the industry nor close to it would probably come to a different conclusion. Such a person would likely conclude that people in (and close to) the industry probably have a pretty clear grasp on the pace and timeline of evolving technology within that industry.

Shh! You hush and run along, now. The grownups are talking.

 

[FA5Si]

Better beam performance, longer lifespan, and lower power consumption than halogen, lower cost and lighter system weight than 35w HID (no lens cleaner system required in Europe, which means no heavy/bulky washer fluid tank).

So these are intermediate in performance between 35W HID and a top-notch halogen system? Any idea of the relative decrease in performance between a hypothetical standardized 35W system and a possible "average" 25W system (as a percentage figure), if I am correct in assuming the 25W system won't perform as well as a 35W system?

Do you have a place you can point me to more (relatively general) info on these 25W systems, or is it all too new to have been distributed, save to insiders?

 

[-Virgil-]

(re 25w HID)

So these are intermediate in performance between 35W HID and a top-notch halogen system?

Yes, exactly.

Any idea of the relative decrease in performance between a hypothetical standardized 35W system and a possible "average" 25W system (as a percentage figure), if I am correct in assuming the 25W system won't perform as well as a 35W system?

With optics optimized for the 25w burner, you don't give up nearly as much as you might think. There was a good talk on the subject at the SAE International Congress last week in Detroit by one of the Philips guys, but unfortunately it was only an oral presentation and so can't be bought. There's a good article here (sub) on the new Ford Fiesta's first-on-the-market 25w BiXenon headlamp. Specs of this first system are 2000 lumens from the bulb, 4500K CCT, lifespan over 2000 hours, about 55w total system consumption (both sides of the car) at 13.2v, flux on the road 640 lumens (low beam), 970 lumens (high beam), peak intensity about 34,000 candela (low beam), about 50,000 candela (high beam). Very respectable specs, those.

Do you have a place you can point me to more (relatively general) info on these 25W systems, or is it all too new to have been distributed, save to insiders?

Unfortunately that is pretty much the case. There's some good info available to anyone who wants to buy it in this SAE paper, which is written by the chief R&D engineer of Visteon Europe (the maker of the new Fiesta headlamp). It describes a front combination lamp containing an LED DRL and a 25w BiXenon high/low beam.

 

[Qship1996]

Mark my words, in 5 years incandescents will be in the minority of new car headlamps......despite what the pope here thinks.

 

[-Virgil-]

OK, sure, you're on. We'll meet back here on April 17, 2015 and look at the global market prevalence of headlamp light sources in new vehicles. If incandescents are in the minority, I'll buy you a beer (assuming you are old enough to drink alcohol -- we'll substitute a grape Nehi if not). If they aren't, I'll throw a broccoli cream pie in your face.