AW 18650 goes bad....

[Brian321]

Well this is the first time i have had a cell go bad, So im not exactly sure what the problem was.

I charged it and used it a few times, and then i let it sit on my shelf with other batteries for about a month, Maybe a little less.

Well i took it to Lowes today to make sure i got the right size PVC pipe( Battery holder) and i let it sit in the car for maybe 30min tops in the heat. Could this have killed it?

So now when i try to charge it, My charger say error voltage to high. Like this:

But when i check it with the DMM it reads 0.02-0.03, Like this:

What do you guys think?

Thanks,
Brian

 

[Nitroz]

I wonder if something happened to the protection circuit?

I have had that happen to me with a cheaper cell and it would give me the low reading on a meter. I don't have a nice changer like that unfortunately.

 

[Mettee]

Nice Triton

How many cycles through that battery? I wouldn's say heat killed it all of a sudden but batteries are weird so...Is there a chance that it is at the end of its life?

What setting did you charge on for that battery? Can you show a pic of that? And maybe how you held the battery?

I use the lipo(3.7v) setting on mine for single cell.

I would say if you charged on the lipo setting and then you tried to use the Lion setting then maybe the voltage is too high for that setting...just theory.

But your DMM is telling you its dead so I doubt that is wrong...my last thought after the rest. Looks like bad news.

 

[tsmccull]

Thought I saw another post recently where someone's battery protection ckt had tripped and he couldn't get it charged until he figured out how to disable the protection. Think he put another battery in parallel with the shutdown one for a short period of time which got it reactivated enough that it would charge. Could that be your problem?

 

[Brian321]

Nice Triton

How many cycles through that battery? I wouldn's say heat killed it all of a sudden but batteries are weird so...Is there a chance that it is at the end of its life?

What setting did you charge on for that battery? Can you show a pic of that? And maybe how you held the battery?

I use the lipo(3.7v) setting on mine for single cell.

I would say if you charged on the lipo setting and then you tried to use the Lion setting then maybe the voltage is too high for that setting...just theory.

But your DMM is telling you its dead so I doubt that is wrong...my last thought after the rest. Looks like bad news.

I would say 10 or less cycles through it. ( More like 3-4)

I tried the same setting you use. ( Lipo, 3.7v) Set to 2200MAH.


Thanks,
Brian

 

[45/70]

I find it very odd that the voltage of the cell in question is 0.02 Volt. Even a Li-Ion cell that has been drained to zero Volts (with, or without a protection circuit), after resting a bit , I think would recover to a higher voltage than that.

This makes me think along the lines of Nitroz. Something has to be up with the protection circuit. I'm not familiar with your DMM, but I suppose the 0.02 Volt reading could just be a phantom reading and the voltage is actually zero, indicating a tripped protection circuit. Still, this doesn't explain why the Triton is warning of high voltage and won't charge the cell. Then again, I've never tried to charge a tripped cell on a hobby charger. Humm. :thinking:

Dave

 

[Brian321]

I find it very odd that the voltage of the cell in question is 0.02 Volt. Even a Li-Ion cell that has been drained to zero Volts (with, or without a protection circuit), after resting a bit , I think would recover to a higher voltage than that.

This makes me think along the lines of Nitroz. Something has to be up with the protection circuit. I'm not familiar with your DMM, but I suppose the 0.02 Volt reading could just be a phantom reading and the voltage is actually zero, indicating a tripped protection circuit. Still, this doesn't explain why the Triton is warning of high voltage and won't charge the cell. Then again, I've never tried to charge a tripped cell on a hobby charger. Humm. :thinking:

Dave

I was thinking it might be the protection circuit also. Well the DMM was reading 0.00 at some points and even for a few minutes, But for the most part it said 0.2-0.3

Is there a way to check or fix the protection cicuit?

 

[VidPro]

when the charger tests the battery (first part of cycle) , does it hit it with charge current?
so if the battery was all loose (low resistance) when the charger hits it with the first test current , and the voltage doesnt "clamp" via the battery, that could read high.

but it didnt read "disconnected" does your charger say "connection error" when the charger reads NOTHING on the first test?
or do you get a "high" reading when there isnt even any connection at all?

then you read with the meter, and the voltage reads low, lower than the protection will even allow it to show (a voltage flow occuring).

that is the way i see it so far. need more info, like ignoring the computerised charger, and putting a manuel lightweight charge voltage in and reading the current headed to the battery with a current meter.
that way you can see if you have a full disconnection (like protection is bad or fully disconnected) or if the battery exists behind the protection, but it is just ruined (low resistance if the triton tests apply)

 

[45/70]

As I said, I've never tried to charge a cell which the protection circuit has tripped on a hobby charger. It could be that they just display a warning message (multi purpose) when a cell is detected that is under, or over voltage.

If you feel like trying something, you might try paralleling the cell with a charged cell for about one second, and then take a voltage reading. If the voltage is unchanged, then I'd say we're still stuck with either a bad cell, or a faulty protection circuit. If the cell shows a significant increase in voltage, then it may just be a tripped protection circuit.

If you decide to parallel the cell with a good one, keep in mind that you're playing with fire here, literally. Don't keep the parallel going for more than one second, and do it in a safe area! There are many here that probably wouldn't do this at all. You have been warned!

In any case, even if the cell recovers and seems to be usable, I'd pay close attention to it for a while. Any odd behavior, such as getting warmer than usual while charging, or any other strange behavior, pitch/recycle it.

In answer to your question about attempting to fix a protection circuit, most people either replace the cell, or remove the PCB and just use the unprotected cell. I doubt it's worth the trouble trying to repair the circuit, but probably is possible. I suppose you could replace the PCB, then shrink wrap it back up, but that'd be just about as much trouble.

Dave

 

[Art]

I have one cell here exactly like that... I cant charge it because charges wont do it and when I read volts its at 0...

I read about "jump starting" a cell.. is it safe?

 

[45/70]

I read about "jump starting" a cell.. is it safe?

The short answer is no.

If you don't keep the cells in parallel for more than a very brief moment, it's unlikely anything bad will happen, but it could.

NiMH and NiCd cells are different. Their chemistry doesn't allow massive amounts of current to flow between the paralleled cells, like Li-Ion chemistry does. With nickel based cells, this works well when a "smart charger" won't accept the cell for charging due to the voltage being lower than the acceptable limit.

Dave

 

[Brian321]

when the charger tests the battery (first part of cycle) , does it hit it with charge current?
so if the battery was all loose (low resistance) when the charger hits it with the first test current , and the voltage doesnt "clamp" via the battery, that could read high.

but it didnt read "disconnected" does your charger say "connection error" when the charger reads NOTHING on the first test?
or do you get a "high" reading when there isnt even any connection at all?

then you read with the meter, and the voltage reads low, lower than the protection will even allow it to show (a voltage flow occuring).

that is the way i see it so far. need more info, like ignoring the computerised charger, and putting a manuel lightweight charge voltage in and reading the current headed to the battery with a current meter.
that way you can see if you have a full disconnection (like protection is bad or fully disconnected) or if the battery exists behind the protection, but it is just ruined (low resistance if the triton tests apply)

I dont understand some of the stuff you are asking, But if there was a loose connection or the battery was not connected with the first battery test it would say "No Battery".

This is the first time i have seen it say this.

Is it safe to just remove the protection ciruit and use it unprotected?

Thanks,
Brian

 

[VidPro]

it Still could be the protection cut-out on low end, and very low voltage cell.

scenario:
charger hits it with initial test current. battery behind the protection is very low.
current causes amp protection to cut out
computer charger doesnt understand.
computer charger can be set to lower current, but test and pulses could still make this difficult for it.

that still leaves , needing to SLOWLY bring up the voltage with something manually, or dumber charger. The machine and its safety stuff, might not be able to do it easily, and low enough.
Before assuming that the protection is bad.

 

[KingCanada]

A cheap old DSD charger would have that fixed in no time!

 

[Brian321]

Well the only thing i have is an old trustfire charger.

Let me try that real quick and see what happens

EDIT: Well i just tried it in my Trustfire charger and the green light was on like it was charged, I left it on the charger for about 30 secs and it now reads 0.12v on the DMM.

 

[cityevader]

Curious if DMM reads any different when using leads only, without using fingers on them?

I've had goofy readings because my fingers were used to hold the leads, as the body will conduct to a degree.

That won't solve or change the situation one bit, but I'm still curious.

 

[Brian321]

Curious if DMM reads any different when using leads only, without using fingers on them?

I've had goofy readings because my fingers were used to hold the leads, as the body will conduct to a degree.

That won't solve or change the situation one bit, but I'm still curious.

It reads the same without my fingers on them. I dont put my fingers on the leads usually but had to, to hold the camera and take a picture.

Thanks,
Brian

 

[march.brown]

If you try the paralleling method , put a one amp fuse in series , just in case ... You could even try a 500mA fuse as all that you are trying to do is put a 4.2 volt supply across a tripped protection circuit to reset it.
.

 

[Kestrel]

Is it safe to just remove the protection ciruit and use it unprotected?

How about just sending a PM to AW? His customer service is excellent, perhaps your cell is still under warranty?

 

[Mettee]

I never knew that you could parallel the cell like that, even though it is dangerous....that is good info.

As Kestrel says try AW first, second try the parallel(with complete care and safety).

Third, I would remove the protection circuit. If the cell is no good then it cant hurt.