AW 18650 - You decide...and why.

Please choose between IMR18650 and Protected 18650

  • IMR18650 1600mAh

    Votes: 12 13.0%
  • Protected 18650 2200mAh

    Votes: 61 66.3%
  • Other 18650

    Votes: 19 20.7%

  • Total voters
    92

Ryanrpm

Enlightened
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Messages
850
Location
Fallon, NV
IMR18650 Specifications :

Nominal Voltage : 3.7V
Capacity : 1600mAH

18650 Protected Specifications :

Nominal Voltage : 3.7V
Capacity : 2200mAH



Of course...I would love the highest capacity available...and I'm not totally needing to go with AW, but if you were to pick between these two, can you tell me which one and why?
 
*I* would go for 2500mAh Trustfires instead, but then again I'm a penny-pincher. :p

If I wanted to buy AW cells, however, I'd go for 2400/2500mAh ones (I assume he sells those too).

I've found LiIon cells to be safe enough that the added safety of IMR and LiFePO4 chemistries doesn't quite make up for the lower energy density. Personally I'll stick to LiIon until someone manages to make cells with safe chemistries that hold as much or more energy and cost about the same.
 
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As I've said elsewhere, with few exceptions, I only buy LiCO cells, for most of the reasons Fallingwater stated. Cost is not a concern however. I do hope to see improvements in the alternative Li-Ion forms.

As has been mentioned in a lot of threads, LiCO's need to be understood, not avoided.

Dave
 
Right now I have no use for the IMR18650 high amp discharge cells, so my pick is a high capacity 18650, 2200-2600mAh. If you are using incan bulbs that are pulling 4-20 amps from the cells then you will prefer the IMR18650's.

Bill
 
I used to be an insurance broker so I'm always concerned with weighing risk so take my opinion with a grain of salt :)

I know there is a very very slim chance of a LiCO cell going :poof: but I don't care - to me it is not worth the risk when the reduced capacity of IMR and LifeP04 is acceptable and enough for all my uses so far.

If I am really really concerned with looooong runtime and am in a situation where I have to 100% rely on the light, I will just use primaries.

It really all depends on how badly you need longer runtime and how often you can charge your cells:

Is this just for using the light around the house for menial tasks? 10 minutes here and there? Walking the dog? or for bumps in the night? If yes, I would stick with IMR because you can just slap the cells on the charger easily or have a second set ready to swap out.

If you use your light for 45+ mins at a time, maybe LiCO make sense...

So... what are you using the light for? :naughty:
 
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I am mostly LED and when I am not I am a 500 lumen incan guy so for now I have no real need for the IMR cells since my draw isn't all that heavy.

What are wanting these to go in? :poke:
 
These will be going into LED throwers. Having them on 40 minutes at a time may be rare, but will happen from time to time. My main goal is to just invest in the best 18650 battery with the highest capacity using today's technology.
 
IMR 18650 for all the reasons bullfrog listed. Even the reduced capacity is more than adequate. It still provides around the same runtime as 2xCR123 primaries. And now I don't ever have to worry about the protection circuit failing and the battery exploding due to any unforseen circumstances or careless behavior. :whistle:
 
I used to be an insurance broker so I'm always concerned with weighing risk........

........If I am really really concerned with looooong runtime and am in a situation where I have to 100% rely on the light, I will just use primaries.

I would do the same, if possible. Lithium primaries have no equivalent as far as power available for their size/weight. However, once again, I see a statement that implies that lithium primaries are safer than LiCO Li-Ion's in a light.

While any lithium chemistry cell type, could be a risk, instances are very rare. I know of no instances of a LiCO Li-Ion exploding in a light, where as there are many examples of this happening or nearly happening with lithium primaries on these forums.

Once again, I'll say it. Lithium primaries are more likely to blow up in your pocket than LiCO Li-Ion's.

My apologies Ryanrpm, but this fact seems to just vanish into thin air, regarding a lot of the members of these Forums.

Dave
 
Wasn't there just a thread on here about how Li-ion cells have gotten a bad name because of mostly user error? I think if you buy AW protected and also use a proper charger, the risk is so small that it's worth the density. But everyone looks at risk differently...
 
These will be going into LED throwers. Having them on 40 minutes at a time may be rare, but will happen from time to time. My main goal is to just invest in the best 18650 battery with the highest capacity using today's technology.
I have a Dereelight CL1H v4 3SD driven at 1.2A and I use only high capacity Samsung 18650 cells (2600 and 2800mah) with great success. Did long term runtime last week with my 2800mah cells and no problem to reach 1 hour 44min where AW2200 stops at 1 hour 25. Good improvement in my opinion.
 
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I don't really need the IMR 18650. Maybe in future for some mod but not right now. My only 18650 flashlight is the Jet-III Pro and it runs perfectly on protected AW 18650. So no need for IMR 18650.

rayman
 
I have a Dereelight CL1H v4 3SD driven at 1.2A and I use only high capacity Samsung 18650 cells (2600 and 2800mah) with great success. Did long term runtime last week with my 2800mah cells and no problem to reach 1 hour 44min where AW2200 stops at 1 hour 25. Good improvement in my opinion.

What was the voltage of each of the cells after the light stopped? I assume the Samsung are unprotected so it was the low voltage protection of the Dereelight that shut it off?

I also use almost only LED so protected AW for me. I would worry with the IMR that I might over discharge them as they don't have a protection circuit.
 
I will not be participating in the poll because the answer is application specific.

I'm going to lay out a few things to consider:

Most LED lights contain regulation circuits that can drag voltages below the ideal minimum recommended discharge voltages for either LiMn or LiCo cells. At least with a protected LiCo cell, you are only slightly over-discharging before the protection stops you from severely over-discharging the cell. With unprotected LiMn cells, you are prone to wind up severely over-discharging the cells, which is going to really kill capacity and cycle life if done repeatedly. On lights that run in direct drive towards the end of the discharge this is not an issue (buck-only regulated lights on 1 li-ion cell) as you will see major dimming before either is dramatically over-discharged.

The total stored energy of 2xCR123s, compared to 1x LiCo 18650, compared to 1x LiMn 18650 is hard to compare and requires first that you know what the load is. The 2xCR123 cells will beat the other two in SLOW drain applications, like 2+ hours. The LiCo 18650 starts to pull ahead of the CR123s when used in applications with ~1 hour runtime. The LiMn cell will beat both of the others in applications where you are pulling serious amps and just need a ton of power density. There are more issue to consider, especially the fact that most lights that are compatible with both an 18650 and 2xCR123 cells are not going to run in regulation on a single 18650, so the runtime on the 18650 is nearly double what it is on CR123s, but is diminishing output rather than regulated output.

Protected LiCo cells are very safe when used in proper applications, charged correctly, and disposed at the proper point in their life. LiMn chemistry is technically safer because if something does go wrong with it, it does not produce it's own oxygen during a burn. Both cell chemistries can burst, but the LiCo is more likely to produce additional fire and toxic fumes as a result. Both cell types usually come with PTC devices which will sever the electrical connection in the even of over-heating in an attempt to prevent thermal runaway. If the LiCo chemistry bothers you, then owning CR123s should bother you 10X as much.

My general recommendation is to stick with protected LiCo cells for any application with ~45 minutes or more runtime on the LiCo cell in question, especially regulated LED lights. Take advantage of the improved runtime of the LiCo cell. LiMn chemistry is best suited to making high power applications possible in smaller places, like a 1xRCR123 size light driving a P7 to ~2.8A, or a 2x18650 driving a bulb that draws over 3.5A.
 
Thank you all for your insightful information and views about batteries. The good thing is, these batteries only cost us about $15/ea give or take a few$$, so if I need or want others in the near future, it is only a few mouse clicks away.

I went and purchased 1 Protected AW 18650 2200mAh with Ultrafire 139 charger from Lighthound. I'm sure I won't be disappointed as AW, from what I hear, has a good quality product in batteries.

Those Samsung high capacity batteries look very interesting to me. Perhaps when they get more widley known, are more easily available, and have gone through more testing by CPFers, then I'll invest in a few.
 
mdocod beat me to it . . .

This poll would be like having to decide between a phillips and flat blade screwdriver.

The recent rash of fears over lion cells is very odd and has no foundation except maybe some newbies asking questions. They are perfectly safe if you follow basic precautions and completely safe if you choose the protected ones.

The IMR cells are for high current draw applications. They should not be desirable otherwise. The cost is greatly reduced capacity. I used them in my M6 and they worked great.

AW cells are great and I've had great luck with Trustfire's too.
 
I am planning to drive a Malkoff P7 lamp 9v (unregulated) with an 18650 cell... am I better off using an AW IMR or an AW protected 18650? I'm not too concerned with long run times with this light.

Alternatively, I will also be driving a Malkoff M60 9v lamp (regulated) with two rechargeable 123's. Would AW IMR 123's be a good choice here or am I better off with protected 123's? Longer run time would be nice, but not critical.

I don't know enough yet to know about what kinds of lamps demand high current.

Thank you for the help.
 
I have a Dereelight CL1H v4 3SD driven at 1.2A and I use only high capacity Samsung 18650 cells (2600 and 2800mah) with great success. Did long term runtime last week with my 2800mah cells and no problem to reach 1 hour 44min where AW2200 stops at 1 hour 25. Good improvement in my opinion.

Tell me more about these cells, where do you get them?

Are they protected? (Do they need to be? MY Pila charger stops charging at 4.2V, so I thin I would only be concerned about the discharge)
 
AW's protected 18650's can be run at 1 1/2C safely, about 3.2amps. For max light output I would go with these cells rather than the IMR's which have reduced mA's. You will want the IMR's when the amp drain is in the range of 4amps. The amp draw for the P4 could be in the range of 2.4-3.2A's.

To answer second question, you could use either IMR123's or AW's protected RCR123's. Protected would give you longer run time, something you might appreciate in a two cell light.

Bill
 
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How does one determine what the amp draw (drain) is with a given lamp head?

Gene Malkoff tells me that the IMR batteries should be fine with his M60 and P7 lamp assemblies, but I have no idea how to know what constitutes a high amp draw head.... I have a lot to learn.
 
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