Backup lights questions

[guiri]

Guys, I'm putting some lights on a roof rack on a Ford Excursion to help me when going in reverse.

Compared to the Volvo station wagon I had years ago, I think the X is really hard to back up with
and tinted mirrors and windows don't help and neither does the height of the truck so I want
lots of light.

Was thinking of going with a couple of led light bars but they are very expensive and my alternative
is two or four rectangular driving or fog lights with 100w halogen bulb in each of them.

My goal is maximum output at a fairly short distance and a WIDE beam so I can see what's right behind and a little
around the truck so to speak.

I prefer led's for obvious reasons but again, price..

Fog or driving lights can be bought for almost nothing these days.

Then there is the matter of drain on the battery n' stuff but then, they'll only be on
for seconds at the time so that shouldn't be a problem and neither will the heat.

I will have them on a separate switch with a relay.

1. So, questions are really, which halogen lights to go with?
2. Any difference in the beam angle between brands or so?
3. Are fog and driving lights DIFFERENT?
4. What's the max wattage in H3 and H1 bulbs?
5. Anyone have any recommendations on decent priced light bars with high output? Two or four units...I prefer smaller units so I can point two them a little bit to the side.
6. What ga wire should I use for the hookup?
7. What about trying to get a housing for one of those rectangular led light bars and having someone pimp it with brighter led's? Is that even feasible cost wise and if so, WHICH led would be a good choice for low price/high output and how much are they a piece of buying say 24 of them?
8. Links would be appreciated

Thanks

George

 

[rob3rto]

Products, can't do any better than the ones Daniel Stern lists on his site.
www.danielsternlighting.com/products/products.html

As for the legalities etc, someone should come soon to advise.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

Compared to the Volvo station wagon I had years ago, I think the X is really hard to back up with
and tinted mirrors and windows don't help and neither does the height of the truck so I want
lots of light.I will have them on a separate switch with a relay.

Tinted windows are common-- but people really tint their mirrors?

Reverse lamps are regulated equipment; certainly on the road or in public (like a parking lot) you want your additional lamps to be off, so the separate switch is a good idea.

Are fog and driving lights DIFFERENT?

Yes. Fog lamps have a bar-shaped pattern with very little upward glare because they are designed to help see road markings at very low speeds. Specular glare (glare from reflecting off wet road surfaces) can still occur, but it won't be like the light shining right in others' eyes. They come in either white or yellow.

"Driving lights" (auxiliary high beam driving lamps) are for high speed, in the absence of other traffic closely forward of you (whether approaching or in traveling in your direction). White light only.

What's the max wattage in H3 and H1 bulbs?

Nominally, both are 55W. They each have 100W variants, but that's overkill for backing an SUV and could be hazardous for others. Certainly not good for your night vision.

Sadly, it seems that there are no decent upgrades for the 3156, the bulb which was used for the Excursion in every model year.

 

[guiri]

Thanks. I'm not worried about the legalities as I won't be using the back up lights everywhere. They'll be on a separate switch
and I'll only use them in places where they're really needed. Not parkings and places like that.

The info about rewiring for better output was super interesting. However, it might be expensive to buy all the wiring
from him for all the lights on my truck such as the two regular lights, the 4 extra 100w lights in front, the 4 extra lights
I plan on putting on the roof rack and the back up lights. :(

 

[Hamilton Felix]

I'm with you about the separate switch. My old International 1 ton 4x4 was set up for offroad work. I put a pair of manually switched PAR36 sealed beam "backup lights" inside the armored bumper, then another pair of high level PAR46 sealed beam "rear floods" on a separate switch.

Important: Make sure any manual switches for rear lights have nice bright indicators. You do NOT want to use those rear lights for maneuvering in the brush, then forget they are on when you hit the public highway. Any rear-facing white light on a forward moving vehicle can get you a nice big ticket.


Also, I seem to recall there are height restrictions for rear lights on road vehicles, something like 6 feet or so. I think the high level tail lights on my IH were right around the limit, while the lights inside the bumper are "normal."

If you were mounting lights near bumper height, a set of cheap fogs would work. As Alaric said, the beam looks like a "bar" when you see it on a wall. Seen from above, the fog light puts out a wide flat "fan" of light.

Mounting at high level, you will want floods, "work lights." If you have a chance to peruse a sealed beam lamp catalog, you may see a few "tractor floods" that have trapezoidal beams. That's when you see the light aimed horizontally onto a wall. Mounted at the correct height and aimed downward at the correct angle on a row crop tractor, they illuminate a rectangular area of ground. Don't rule out "tractor floods," they might be just what you want.

I don't know where you live, but I'm on the wet and brushy side of Washington State. Any high level lights are vulnerable to limbs. I hope your auxiliary lights don't project far above your roof rack, or else that they have metal protectors included in the design.

 

[guiri]

Alright, let me try to respond.

I didn't see Alarics reply by the way so thanks for mentioning it.

I don't see a problem with low mounted branches as I intend to put these BETWEEN the bars in the roof rack.

Yes, my switches have lights on them and I intend to use the one with the brightest led for the rear lights to make sure
I don't forget this (usually the white or blue one).

Maybe my mirrors aren't tinted and it just looks like it in the dark :)

Yes, I remember the flood and tractor lights now. Damn, it's been a long time since I did this kind of stuff.

Any good place to find these? Harbor freight tools, Northern Tools?

I"m in NC by the way and this is not really for woods driving. I just want lots of light when I'm on the smaller roads and for backing up, in case I need it.

I actually mounted two lights under the bumper but they were too low to make a difference. I"ll post a pic

 

[guiri]

Ok, here are some pics for ya. First one obviously shows the rear lights.
Second one shows my extra lights in front and the other pics
IF I'm not mistaken show:

The regular lights on low
The regular lights on high
All lights including the extra lights

The difference would be even more obvious if there were more and
taller trees where I shot it but anyway, I think it's obvious that some
extra lights make a difference.

I would be very curious to know how much of my power is actually going to
the bulbs and how many lumens they're actually putting out?

I'm planning on putting the same lights on the roof rack by the way and if someone wants a cheap
and very good looking extra light, hit me up and I'll post some links. They have this very good looking
titanium color and are very slim.

Shiiiit, forgot the link http://www.extuff.biz/images/excursion/excursion-lights.htm

 

[fangle]

http://bluesea.com/files/resources/reference/20010_Rev.003-web.pdf
One page that answers all your fuse or wire size questions the right way.
Wire size depends on load current and allowable voltage drop, and includes the length of the run.
Fuse size depends on wire size.

I've never bought anything from Bluesea but they have great electrical tech info for DC wiring. They sell boat equipment but it all works the same for cars.

 

[fangle]

Do you have the 7 pin trailer connection? There is a ~40A 12V feed in there, as well as a backup light signal. On my Dodge I just added some lights under the rear bumper. I made up a plastic project box with the +12 and ground from the trailer plug, and left room inside for multiple relays (future expansion). One relay controls the rear lights, and it is triggered by the backup light signal. The box mounts on the top of the hitch behind the bumper and can barely be seen. Still to do is to order a small waterproof SPDT center off toggle switch. I'll then set it up so the switch can be set for triggering the lights from the reverse lamps or manually and the center position will disable them. No wires into the cab of the truck at all.

I think that driving lights would be useless, as you want a wide beam spread. The lamps usually sold as "work lights" might work well. They can be various PARxx bulbs or H3, and the LED versions are coming down in price.

 

[guiri]

Do you have the 7 pin trailer connection? There is a ~40A 12V feed in there, as well as a backup light signal. On my Dodge I just added some lights under the rear bumper. I made up a plastic project box with the +12 and ground from the trailer plug, and left room inside for multiple relays (future expansion). One relay controls the rear lights, and it is triggered by the backup light signal. The box mounts on the top of the hitch behind the bumper and can barely be seen. Still to do is to order a small waterproof SPDT center off toggle switch. I'll then set it up so the switch can be set for triggering the lights from the reverse lamps or manually and the center position will disable them. No wires into the cab of the truck at all.

I think that driving lights would be useless, as you want a wide beam spread. The lamps usually sold as "work lights" might work well. They can be various PARxx bulbs or H3, and the LED versions are coming down in price.

Dunno what connection I have but I DO have a hitch/ Also, I wasn't sure about the driving lights (what they meant I mean) which is why I asked but yeah, I don't need driving lights.

The LED versions of work lamps are not very powerful though. I've looked around and in lumens, they don't give much as many of them are full of 1w led's :(

 

[guiri]

http://bluesea.com/files/resources/reference/20010_Rev.003-web.pdf
One page that answers all your fuse or wire size questions the right way.
Wire size depends on load current and allowable voltage drop, and includes the length of the run.
Fuse size depends on wire size.

I've never bought anything from Bluesea but they have great electrical tech info for DC wiring. They sell boat equipment but it all works the same for cars.

I saved that page. Awesome stuff :)

 

[Hamilton Felix]

Sounds like fangle has the right idea. I have to learn some of these things by painful experience.:rolleyes: On my 1993 Suburban, I had surface mount auxiliary backup lights mounted on the big crossbar of the receiver. But they were only operated by being in Reverse with the key on, so they didn't help me hitch up a trailer at night or work behind the rig at night (unless I was willing to leave it in Reverse with the key on and trust the parking brake).

On my 1996 Suburban, I did the relay thing. I grabbed the power lead to the trailer plug (didn't plug in, but spliced underneath the rear) to run a cheap pair of "combination driving and fog" lights. I intended to add a switch later, but was in a hurry and just used a relay mounted under the rear and controlled by the backup circuit. Unfortunately, a divorce interrupted the project. Then I got a call from a guy who was helping the Ex with the rig: seems the relay was a cheapo and the spray underneath the rig got to it. It stuck ON, and the four 55 watt bulbs on the rear did a great job of running down the battery. :(

I see "systems" for sale that let you stick a pair of lights into your receiver and just plug into the trailer connector. The system includes a relay, uses the backup circuit for control and your high current trailer charging lead for power. But personally, I prefer to keep the receiver free.

Hearing you don't go offroad gives a bit more choice for the low mounted stuff. I am always worried about low mounted lights and trailer connectors and how to protect them. If I had the rig in the picture, I'd worry about damaging it when driving through a dip (my Crown Victoria has a terrible departure angle, but at least the receiver hits the ground just before the trailer connector).

BTW, that's quite a rig. As the owner of a 454 powered 1996 K2500 (with 261K miles and currently laid up with a bad transfer case), I think I'm experiencing size envy. ;) These really are nice tow rigs for conventional trailers.

From the picture, I have a question: Does the roof rack extend back far enough for you to have downward angled rear flood, or will the back end of the roof get in the way and your top lights only illuminate the ground 150 feet behind you? Could be the angle of the picture, but I had to ask. I like the idea of handy floods on the roof rack, but lots of racks don't go all the way to the back of the roof.

Some years ago, I bought some rectangular halogen floods from J.C. Whitney. Still have a couple, it was a good sale. Strangely, the beam was taller than it was wide. Made me want to mount them sideways. I discovered they were sealed, instead of using an easily replaceable H3 bulb. So: Throw away the lamp when it burns out = bad. Sealed construction on a lamp that says outdoors and is only used occasionally = good.

Fewer years ago, I wanted extra rear lights atop the step bumper on a 1977 F250. Ordinary PAR36 tractor floods were a bit too tall; the tailgate would hit them when lowered. I ran into some small rectangular halogen lights by Peterson at a local Wal Mart. They worked pretty well. I think it was this light: http://www.pmlights.com/products.cfm?cId=3&fId=11&pId=1528
As you can see, the overall height is 2" less than the standard tractor flood here: http://www.pmlights.com/products.cfm?cId=3&fId=11&pId=623

In any case, I see that they have one heck of an assortment these days. http://www.pmlights.com/products.cfm

Actually, I think the lights I had one the 1993 Suburban might have been these, except I seem to recall halogen bulbs and I think the lens was glass: http://www.pmlights.com/products.cfm?cId=2&fId=8&pId=1467

Perhaps what you want is "docking lights." They have some, including a pretty compact model, along with some small fog lights. http://www.pmlights.com/products.cfm?cId=3&fId=13

Between these guys and a few of the competitors like Grote and Truck-Lite, I'd say you have plenty of choices. Enjoy the project:thumbsup:

 

[guiri]

First, thanks for the compliment on the truck, LOVE IT!

Second, I will NOT be putting anything underneath anymore. It's too low to do any good so the lights are going on the roof rack.

Yes, this thing will tow 10k lbs right from the factory and I've got the V10 in it by the way.

Kinda funny as I don't understand much of this stuff but I pulled up to a store one day a few years ago and there were a couple of kids with the hood up on a car and looking
at the engine. I naturally thought there was a problem and asked if they were ok and one dude answered, "We're good, we're just looking at the 4.0 (size engine or whatever it was)"

I just looked at him, grinned and said, "You guys wanna see a 6.8?"

He lit up like a Christmas tree and said "Hell yeah, pop that hood"

:)

As for the roof rack, I'm not using that. I bought a used after market one that's huge and it's 7' long so it'll go back far enough.

As for size envy, yeah, it's a nice suck truck. Here are some pics

Sent the last pic to a friend of mine in Sweden. Apparently she has one of these Atos shopping carts to drive around in :)

By the way, yes, I did like fangle's idea.

Yeah, those peterson lights seem like what I want and what I had in mind since I don't want to spend the money LED's would have cost me.

By the way, my guess is that these would generally have even wider beam pattern... http://www.pmlights.com/products.cfm?cId=3&fId=11&pId=1753

Problem is, I'd have to pimp the way it connects. I wonder how it holds up to weather as it seems to be made for temporary use.
May have to call these people.

Good thing they're not expensive. Around 15-20 bucks each plus the 100w bulbs :)

Thanks for the advice guys, I'll post pics when it's done :)

George

 

[Hamilton Felix]

That one says "replaceable bulb," so it's probably the H3 bulb. Can't tell how well it's sealed. That version, though, brings back memories. I had a magnet based PAR36 flood in my truck for some time. Handy work light. I eventually put a sub-mini SPDT-center off switch on it, then squeezed a flasher into the housing so I had that option. Sealed beams have their advantages when out in the weather. As to this one, I'd hope there's a way you can handle one and see how well it's sealed up. Maybe a touch of RTV silicone would be cheap insurance.

Yep I'm with you on the vehicle type. I really need to get my K2500 Suburban back on the road. I've used my car trailer a lot behind it. With my equalizing hitch, I'm OK for a 10,000 lb. trailer. A full length vehicle that weighs over three tons and has a big block is just the ticket. Our lifted Grand Cherokee will pull the trailer, but I'm not likely to haul much of a load behind it. We do want to go your route and get a nice aftermarket roof rack, though. If it's the right one, it would allow me to install some rear floods that are pretty much protected by the rack itself.

It's good we have lots of choices today. I remember when Mechanix Illustrated was telling us how to cut the bottom off of an old Clorox jug, tape in a used 7" headlight that still had one beam working, run the cord out the top and have a handheld work light (hey, the idea is still good and it's definitely low budget). In more recent years, doing VFD rescue work, I found that the traditional pillar mounted Unity spotlights could be handy, but they are a maintenance headache when only used occasionally. There are a couple of makes of magnetic based handheld lights that will lock on. That's handy (though not quite as handy if your rescue vehicle has an aluminum box and a fiberglass hood, forcing you to use the roof).

That last time I specified a rescue vehicle was in the 1990's, so LED and HID stuff wasn't there. But I liked plenty of Whelen's dual bulb halogen SceneLights. I ended up with a rig with twice the normal number of floods on all sides and they all switched on automatically in Reverse.

I also own a suction mounted, wired Go-Light remote spotlight (the wireless control version is a bit rich for my blood). It's not as handy as a built-in, but it has been a big help a few times.

Given today's compact options and a private rig with the right roof rack, a person could install switched floods in all directions and they wouldn't be an eyesore or a nuisance.

Let us know what you eventually install. :thumbsup:

 

[guiri]

Hell, I'm not too worried about if they're watertight as they're cheap, UNLESS, if they short out they could do damage to the rest of the electric system.

Before I forget, what do you guys think of these? If they're close to the output, might not be a bad choice... http://www.ebay.com/itm/150626591516?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

Tell you what, if you wait till I get my rack up, I'll snap some shots and you can tell if you like it or not and I can tell you what rack I have and where to get it.
It'll cost you around $1k for a new one with shipping and mounts so don't know if you want to pay that but if you do, let me know.

I got mine used and got it shipped to me. Dude had to cut it 'cause it was so damn big :)

Yep, we definitely have lots of choices today and with the internet, things are super simple.
The forums are a great help and you can ask a bunch of stuff, do your research and then buy your product :)

That last time I specified a rescue vehicle was in the 1990's, so LED and HID stuff wasn't there. But I liked plenty of Whelen's dual bulb halogen SceneLights. I ended up with a rig with twice the normal number of floods on all sides and they all switched on automatically in Reverse.

That's what I would like to do but not enough money and I have also looked at the go lights, but frankly, I have NO use for all that. I WANT it but don't really need it.

I also have a remote start on my truck and was thinking of putting one of these bad boys on the roof to come on when I hit the remote so I can find it in a parking lot.
Sadly enough, my truck ISN'T the biggest thing out there so sometimes, it IS hidden from view :)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/180703763238?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

 

[Hamilton Felix]

Wow, that bicycle light on eBay is small and bright, 1,600 lumens and very compact.
But it's still a bicycle light and it runs on a special 8.4 volt battery.

That last light, the amber/white LED flasher, is pretty cool for the price.
I tend to keep a small amber beacon or stobe in my vehicle, for when I
have to stop along the road. Maybe it's a holdover from my VFD days, or
maybe I've just stopped too many times for trees in the road or accidents.

I recall a study that wanted to see what slowed traffic the best. They found
that "cop" lights made the people slow for a moment than speed up.
Best was traffic cones and yellow beacons/flashers. To most people that
means "road construction, your car will be damaged if you don't slow down."

I used to have remote start on the Suburban. I can justify it as a safety measure
as well as a comfort measure. Park with defroster on high in winter, hit remote
start in the morning while you have a cup of coffee, and you have great visibilty
when you hit the road. Not to mention, you're comfortable instead of shivering.
Years ago. SAAB considered the heated driver's seat a safety feature.

For a security measure: If a potential badguy is approaching you or the vehicle
in a parking lot, hit start. The lights coming on and the engine firing up will
make him stop and think.

Yep, I'll keep my eyes open for the right used roof rack. Not likely to pay a grand
for a good rack for the Jeep. Used is fine. But I do think a pair of compact rear
floods, and maybe a left and right flood, is a good idea.

Hey, it's that season. Gotta double check my lights, beacons, flares, windshield
wipers, antifreeze, basic tools, rations, etc. And put a chainsaw back into my trunk.

 

[guiri]

Dude, I'm envious as hell. I want to be up north too. I'm in NC and I can't stand this stinkin' heat and humidity :(

Hell, I lived close to the arctic circle (Sweden) and loved it.

Good tip on starting the truck if someone approaches me.

What do you think of the idea of putting the beacon on the roof so I can find it in a parking lot?
Does it seem feasible? I mean, you think I'll see it?

Yeah, love my remote start. Me, I don't care much for heating the cab but then, even though people here are cold in the winter
I usually drive around in shorts but it's good for warming the ENGINE up AND, above all, for the heat in the summer :)

The thing is so powerful, I've had it in the hospital parking lot and started it from inside the ELEVATOR :)

Yeah, I think I might go with the regular work lights in the back. MUCH cheaper.

Let me know if you need help finding a roof rack.

Actually, MINE might be for sale 'cause it's actually too wide for the excursion. Lemme know if you're interested and if so, I'll use that money to
buy one that WILL fit. I was going to have it cut off and take a chunk out of it in the middle (lengthwise) to make it fit :)

By the way, I forgot to mention this. I have a temperature thingie in the overhead compartment that's hooked up to the remote
start and i can set it to start at any temp (hi or low).
Pretty cool stuff. Let me know if you're interested in more info about it.
I even have the manual in pdf format.

Never used it but got it for my dogs.

 

[Hamilton Felix]

Hey, that automatic temperature controlled start is a nice idea for any critter left in the car.
I liked the auto start on my Suburban. Dual heat and dual A/C, front/rear. I'd park with
A/C on high in summer, defrost on high in winter.
It turned on the lights and locked the doors when starting, would run 10 minutes
then shut down if you hadn't entered and turned the key on.

That little yellow/white LED cube on eBay looks interesting. Less money than most small
beacons except the Harbor Freight specials (even those are OK for occasional use, but if
I was getting serious, I'd grab a small Federal Signal or Whelen, like I did in the VFD.
I'm not sure about legality, since that one flashes white as well as amber.
But it sure would grab attention in a parking lot, and it can't use much power.

My wife has an extra long range alarm on our Grand Cherokee, but I've never had to set
it off to find it - just blink the lights with "unlock" a time or two.

I don't know if a Suburban or Excursion roof rack is anywhere close to a Grand Cherokee,
but I'll try to grab a measurement or two then shoot you a PM. Maybe at least I will
learn something.

You know, for working around the rig at night, I sometimes wonder about some
really small floods tucked into the running boards, just to see where you step.

 

[guiri]

Auto start? Was that something factory? Cool $hit if so.

Hey guess what, found a CHEAP and good looking rack that can be extended and shipping is free.
Also, if you get it and don't like it and don't MESS with it, you can return it within 60 days.
WHere the hell was this when I was looking a couple of years ago.
This is awesome...

The question is, will it look cheese if it's only 40" wide?
http://www.etrailer.com/Roof-Cargo-Carrier/Rola/59504.html
http://www.etrailer.com/Accessories-and-Parts/Rola/59505.html

Opinions?

Check this out http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/67135-good-deal-rola-roof-rack.html

 

[Hamilton Felix]

That Rola rack is interesting. Price isn't bad, it look functional, and it would even provide a useful mounting point for those rear work lights.

Now you've gotten me curious; I'll have to go measure the width and length of the factory roof rack on our Jeep.