Blinding light

[Uncle Alvah]

Is there a certain power level needed, or perhaps a type of light most suitable for disorienting an opponent?
Specifically, I'm referring to a hand-held light to be used in conjunction with a handgun.

 

[J!m]

I personally believe a light above 100 lumens will work indoors (under artificial light) but you can get away with much less if it is outdoors in the darkness.

Disorientation occurs when someone has night-adapted vision and you suddenly give them a dose of pure white light. This forces the eyes closed, and also can cause temporary blindness. Usually, these few seconds are enough to tip the balance of power in your favor...

If you visit SureFire.com they specialize in this sort of thing for military and police. I'm sure if you called and asked some questions, they'd be happy to steer you in the right direction.

 

[Genxsis]

I'm glad someone asked this question! I've been wondering the same thing and have been considering either a Fenix L2D Q5 or an L2T 2.0 for the purpose of carrying with the max. mode ready when I'm out in the dark in a situation where I could be vulnerable to a mugging. Before spending the money, I also would like to know what is really needed.

Another light I've considered in the ROV Sportsman Extreme for $25 at Walmart. A lower cost alternative, but I already have a River Rock 2AA that claims to have an output of 40 lumens and seems very bright when I shine it into a mirror at myself. The Sportsman Extreme claims 80 lumens, but I've heard here it's actuall closer to 60. Also, it no doubt has a floodier beam than my River Rock, thereby lessening the intensity (I assume). Correct me if I'm wrong!

 

[The Porcupine]

The subject of using a flashlight for self defense has been discussed to death on CPF.
I think most people who have real life experience in such matters, agree that a you cannot rely on "temporary blindness" or "disorientation". To work as a weapon, the light is to be used with a gun as Uncle Alvah suggests. It cannot stand alone.

That said, I would go for the most concentrated and most intense light I could find if I was to use it for the above purpose. For illumination a target (when used with a gun) I'd actually prefer the light to be a bit more floody
Some feel that incandescents are more "blinding" than LED's. Personally I don't really know, but if you intend to use your light for "tactical" applications, I suggest something with at least 65 (real, not marketing-inflated) lumens and a simple, non-clicky switch. If kept in the 1 or 2 cell form factor, Surefire L1, L2, L4, G2/G2L 6P/6PL as well as Novatac EDC 120T comes to mind. Probably a lot of other lights that would work well, though.

 

[Lightraven]

According to Surefire, 60 (or is it 65?) lumens on a dark adapted eye.

Brighter is better. You'll get more of a blinding effect, but I've shined my 24 Watt Boxer High Intensity Discharge (over 1000 lumens) in a bad guy's eyes at 8 feet on an unlighted beach and he didn't even look away from me and continued to back away (into the surfline) when I went to arrest him. I ended up using pepper spray, which caused him to turn away and then surrender.

I also used my Surefire M6 on a bad guy and buddies at 6 feet in a dim area and he DID turn away and back away, initially. After that, it got a little tense and other weapons came into play.

So, start with the brightest flashlight you are willing to carry and be ready to make your next move--then the move after that.

 

[Genxsis]

I guess by "self defense", I'm thinking of using it as a way to take an advantage away from the other guy by not letting him see me or what I'm doing, and therefore keep him frozen, like a deer in headlights responds by freezing in place. It would be hard for the bad guy to strike at you because he can't really see you, and he might hesitate to try going for a weapon since he can't even see if you have one pointed at him already.

I guess I'm just going by how I myself would react when facing someone who has a bright light bearing on me. I guess that's why when you get pulled over at night, the cop takes out his maglite and sticks it in your face while he's talking to you. That way, he sees you very well, and you see nothing but bright light. That gives him an advantage that I would like to have if faced by a bad guy. It's quite possible it might not be enough.

Does anyone here have any experience trying to blind someone they felt threatened by? How did it work for you?

Sorry Lightraven! You beat me to it! Good story about your experience! Thank you for sharing it!

 

[hopkins]

I've found that with lithium AA's instead of Nimh or alkalines the
ROV Sportsman Extreme 2AA 3watt handheld is alot brighter due to higher
voltage/current. Measured 740mA lithium and 620mA NimH.

-could be something to consider when you want to flash some
potential bad guy.

 

[KeyGrip]

I doubt anyone would really freeze long enough for you to gain any advantage over drawing a firearm or running away. It may be difficult for an attacker to see you, but that does not mean they won't try. If someone's going to come at you with the intention of doing harm, the best one can realistically expect is to get enought time to escape.

 

[Beastmaster]

I'll mention a few things that should be re-hashed slightly.

1) Momentary/Twisty or Momentary/Forward Click flashlights are the norm for tactical flashlight usage. Period. Nearly every class, from what the big boys do (SureFire, Vickers Tactical, and others) to small fry like myself utilize and reinforce the use of a forward click/momentary or twisty/momentary switch.

2) The standard for use requires hitting the momentary, light the target, release the switch, move while off, repeat. Some classes require you to do that up to three times before tactically retreating or tactically engaging the target.

3) Having it constantly on eventually negates the advantage. What you are trying to do is confuse the iris and overload the rods and cones at the same time within your eye. The on/off/move/on/off/move/on/engage method will allow you to gain a small (and I do mean small) tactical advantage while you're confusing your opponent's eyeballs.

The aforementioned Larry Vickers will place a light downrange that is aimed at the shooter. You're given a certain amount of time (30 seconds) staring in the general direction of the light, then you are to engage the target that is behind the light. Ground bounce and other factors allow you to see the target and effectively hit it with aimed and controlled gunfire, while still being hit with the light turned on full tilt.

4) LED lighting has a certain minute advantage in that it has a lot more blue-shifted spectrum than most lights, making it harsher to your opponent's eyes. Nothing beats sheer output though - forex I'd rather have 110 lumens out of my SureFire 8X than 80 lumens out of a stock SureFire 6P LED.

And as others have mentioned - nothing beats a good tactical flashlight technique than a good tactical flashlight technique paired with a firearm.

And before anyone starts getting into the reverse click switch being okay - it's not. You lose the flashlight while you're fumbling it "off" by holding the switch in - the light may stay on and you've negated any tactical advantage you may have.

-Steve

 

[Gunner12]

My thoughts on this:

Minimal 60 lumen out the front.
Forward clickie.
Concealable or easy to carry.
Easy to use.

 

[Mike Painter]

Zero lumens.
A friend had a guy run from him down into some rough country. He stayed in the car and followed him with a spotlight. When he realized he was helping, he turned it off. (sound of crashing) The guy agreed to give himself up if the deputy left the light on until the bad guy got back on the raod.

 

[LukeA]

It's not about lumens; it's about lux. That's why you can look directly at a 44W fluorescent tube putting out several thousand lumens but not, say, a 5mw laser. The 10k lux@1m of my Pelican 7060 is rather shocking to dark-adapted eyes.

 

[Beastmaster]

It's not about lumens; it's about lux. That's why you can look directly at a 44W fluorescent tube putting out several thousand lumens but not, say, a 5mw laser. The 10k lux@1m of my Pelican 7060 is rather shocking to dark-adapted eyes.

It's really both. Lux is a measurement of light strength within a specific and defined area. Your example of a fluorescent tube putting out (and I'll throw this number out since you weren't specific) 5000 lumens would give you 500 lux in a 10 square foot area at a set specific height above the ground.

Lumens is the photometric measurement of how luminous something is - in other words, how many photons/quanta are getting thrown out of the light.

They are inter-related, but separate.

I (personally) would rather want to know lumens - it's an easier quantifiable item that is compared versus lux. I could have 10k lux at 70 meters using an HID or ROP light instead of your Pelican 7060. You have the same lux reading, different distance.

-Steve

 

[quatra2008]

just a little story for you... my buddy who was advancing on me to tackle me to the ground and when he was 4 feet away i used my surefire 6p with a cree q5 drop in right in his eyes then ran like all hell (im no jessie jackson). when i looked back i was 30-35 feet away and he still hadn't opened his eyes back up. given it wasn't a life threatening situation but he had intent to harm me and was unsuspecting of the light which is a typical situation, and the light worked in minor self defense.

 

[GregWormald]

If I really needed a light for self defense, I'd be relying on the muzzle flash.
Greg

 

[J!m]

If I really needed a light for self defense, I'd be relying on the muzzle flash.
Greg

I concur. Although the Lumens can be rather low, and color temperature poor, I have to say that it is a most effective deturent...:twothumbs

 

[Genxsis]

I've found that with lithium AA's instead of Nimh or alkalines the
ROV Sportsman Extreme 2AA 3watt handheld is alot brighter due to higher
voltage/current. Measured 740mA lithium and 620mA NimH.

-could be something to consider when you want to flash some
potential bad guy.

That does sound good! I've been considering the ROV Sportsman Extreme 2AA 3watt. Good price and appears to be solidly built. Locally available too. Question though: Does running it with those lithiums and making it alot brighter do anything to harm the LED by overpowering it?

To the other posters who say that a light is good as long as a gun is there to back it up, I agree totally. But I live in the not so great state of Wisconsin where concealed carry is prohibited and open carry is considered "disorderly conduct", thereby making the right to bear arms a suspended right.

 

[Beastmaster]

To the other posters who say that a light is good as long as a gun is there to back it up, I agree totally. But I live in the not so great state of Wisconsin where concealed carry is prohibited and open carry is considered "disorderly conduct", thereby making the right to bear arms a suspended right.

One word - Taser.

The Taser C2 (when you fire the darts) jolts the target for 30 seconds. The law enforcement version only jolts the target for 5.

Now - having been tased, and stun gunned, the 5 seconds are a trip. You're raw and exhausted just from that.

Imagine it for 6 times that length.

-Steve

 

[Genxsis]

One word - Taser.

The Taser C2 (when you fire the darts) jolts the target for 30 seconds. The law enforcement version only jolts the target for 5.

Now - having been tased, and stun gunned, the 5 seconds are a trip. You're raw and exhausted just from that.

Imagine it for 6 times that length.

-Steve

I would love to have one of those, but Tasers and stun guns are even more frowned upon by our state government than carrying a firearm. If we get caught with a firearm, it's a misdemeanor. Get caught with a stun gun or taser, and it's a felony.

 

[StarHalo]

I guess that's why when you get pulled over at night, the cop takes out his maglite and sticks it in your face while he's talking to you. That way, he sees you very well, and you see nothing but bright light.

S/he also does that to see if you're inebriated by checking your pupil response. That's how officers always "magically" know who's under the influence.

You can test how effective your own flashlights are by testing them yourself; just stand in some dark place and shine the light in your own eyes at arm's length, then try to perform some sight-specific task quickly. For example, at night, stand with your back to your car about ten feet away and flash your eyes. Now turn around and try to open the car door. If you can do it at roughly normal speed, that light isn't bright enough. If you stand around wondering when your vision will come back, or end up feeling up the side of your car, that's a good light.