Breaking in new batteries

[Mr. Glass]

Hello All,

After receiving great advice both here and in the general forums, I purchased a Fenix TK-40, a set of 8 Eneloops, and a Maha MH-C808M.

My question:

When I first receive my Eneloops, is there any "breaking in" required/recommended before they're used in the TK-40.

I am a noob, both in batteries and lights, and understand that the MH-C808M has a conditioning feature, but wanted to check with you guys first before using it.

Thank you to everyone in advance!

-Glass

 

[Bones]

Hello All,

After receiving great advice both here and in the general forums, I purchased a Fenix TK-40, a set of 8 Eneloops, and a Maha MH-C808M.

My question:

When I first receive my Eneloops, is there any "breaking in" required/recommended before they're used in the TK-40.

I am a noob, both in batteries and lights, and understand that the MH-C808M has a conditioning feature, but wanted to check with you guys first before using it.

Thank you to everyone in advance!

-Glass

Ideally, you would want to break-in your Eneloops with a few break-in cycles in accordance with the procedure set down in the Eneloop specifications:

As noted above, the specifications call for a few 16 hour charges at 0.1C (200mA), each followed by a deep discharge at 0.2C (400mA) to 1.0 Volts.

Although not noted in the specifications, there are indications that the Eneloop will also benefit from an initial discharge at 0.2C to 1.0 Volts before proceeding with its first charge, whether or not it is part of break-in cycle.

Since most chargers don't provide for a break-in cycle, we can only do our best to approximate the process.

In your case, I would recommend using the TK-40 to discharge your cells at a very slow rate, let them rest for at least an hour, and then re-charge them at your charger's slowest rate. They should also be allowed to rest for at least an hour following each charge. I wouldn't worry about over-discharging your Eneloops with the TK-40 providing they're not left in an over-discharged state for an extended period of time.

After you've run of a few of these ad hoc 'break-in cycles', you may also want to subject your Eneloops to a couple of actual refresh cycles on the MH-C808M to really get them ready for your TK-40 at its most aggressive draw rate.

For more information on the care and treatment of your Eneloops, you can refer to the Eneloop handbook, which is linked here:

http://www.eneloop.info ... eneloop-user-guide.html

There are also the Eneloop FAQs:

http://www.eneloop.info/home/faq.html

Enjoy your TK-40...

 

[brted]

Hello All,
When I first receive my Eneloops, is there any "breaking in" required/recommended before they're used in the TK-40.

There is some disagreement about whether Eneloops need to be broken in. Unless they are underperforming somehow, I don't think I would break them in. Just charge them up and start using them. I just ran 2 brand new duraloops through a refresh and analyze cycle and the other 2 from the same pack through a break-in and came up with the same capacity for both (right around nominal capacity) except the break-in took a day longer. Eneloops are so consistent that you are going to get 2000 mah regardless. I discharged a AAA duraloop and it came out really low (157 mah out of the package whereas it usually 500-600) but then I did a refresh and analyze and it came back up around where it should be.

 

[Bones]

There is some disagreement about whether Eneloops need to be broken in. Unless they are underperforming somehow, I don't think I would break them in. Just charge them up and start using them. I just ran 2 brand new duraloops through a refresh and analyze cycle and the other 2 from the same pack through a break-in and came up with the same capacity for both (right around nominal capacity) except the break-in took a day longer. Eneloops are so consistent that you are going to get 2000 mah regardless. I discharged a AAA duraloop and it came out really low (157 mah out of the package whereas it usually 500-600) but then I did a refresh and analyze and it came back up around where it should be.

If the sole purpose of a break-in charge was to maximize capacity, then it would seem largely unnecessary considering how little capacity the Eneloop loses while idled.

However, I believe the more important purpose of a break-in or 'forming' charge is to redistribute the electrolyte in the cell and properly saturate its separator membrane. Areas of the cell that are not properly saturated can be permanently damaged by higher rates of charge and discharge. The forming charge also reduces impedance by breaking up crystal growths or granular aggregations which can form while the cell is idled.

...
Just charge them up and start using them.
...

I would recommend exactly the opposite, meaning I would at least subject a new or idled cell to a slow, deep discharge before its first charge. This seems to reduce false or early charge terminations. More importantly, it also seems to cause a stronger termination signal when the cell does reach a fully charged state, reducing the odds of a missed termination.

 

[TakeTheActive]

Experimenting With Different 'Custom' Techniques...

...I believe the more important purpose of a break-in or 'forming' charge is to redistribute the electrolyte in the cell and properly saturate its separator membrane. Areas of the cell that are not properly saturated can be permanently damaged by higher rates of charge and discharge...

+1 :thumbsup:

...The forming charge also reduces impedance by breaking up crystal growths or granular aggregations which can form while the cell is idled...

I'll have to research this in the CPF Archives when I have more time, but, I recall differently:

• Slow Charge : Encourages large crystal growth
• Fast Charge : Encourages small crystal growth
• Slow Discharge: Dissolves large crystal growth

...I would at least subject a new or idled cell to a slow, deep discharge before its first charge. This seems to reduce false or early charge terminations. More importantly, it also seems to cause a stronger termination signal when the cell does reach a fully charged state, reducing the odds of a missed termination.

Please describe your 'slow, deep discharge' parameters.

I've been experimenting with a 'Deep Discharge Technique' explained by 45/70, paraphrasing:

1. Discharge cell to 0.9VDC (initially I use 0.2C on my MH-C9000)
2. Deep Discharge cell again to 0.9VDC @ 100mA (I use my BC-900 since 20% of 500mA discharges more after 10% of 1000mA terminates)
3. Deep Discharge further with a 1AA Duracell Superman Incandescent flashlight
   - I notice that high Internal Resistance cells will run the flashlight for several minutes
4. Deep Discharge further with a 1AA Sears Solar LED Lamp (~24mA)
   - again, the higher the Internal Resistance, the longer the runtime
5. Measure the MH-C9000 Impedance Check Voltage
   - if still decreasing, continue; else, exit
6. Charge @ 1000mA for ~5-6 minutes (~100mAh input)
7. If Loop # < 6, Goto #2
8. Charge @ 150mA for ~16-20 hours
9. Goto #1

As for Charge Current, I'm slowly moving away from my standard practice of BC-900 'Refresh' / MH-C9000 'Cycle' to slow charging with my antique RadioShack 23-418 7/13 Hour Charger (140mA timed) or Sakar/Digital Concept CH-1800 (150mA untimed) - Constant Current vs PWM (see 2 new LINKs that I added to my Sig Line LINKs). Initially, it appears that CC achieves a fuller charge but these experiments (~2-5 45/70 Cycles followed by ~16-20 hours @ 150mA on the Sakar) take MANY days (are boring and tie up both chargers) and I only have a small amount of data thus far.

Sample Data:

Rayovac I-C3 2000mAh AA      [B] |   #5    #6    #7    #8
---------------------------------+---------------------------

09/28/09 C9000 Break-In: 1400    |  n/a  1520   n/a  1563 mAh
09/27/09 BC900 Charge: 1800      |  396   n/a   257   n/a mAh
09/24/09 C9000 Impedance Check:  |  n/a  1.62   n/a  1.63 VDC
09/24/09 Sears Solar LED Lamp    |  n/a     x   n/a   ---
09/23/09 BC900 Discharge:  100   |  n/a    49   n/a    84 mAh
09/23/09 C9000 Discharge:  400   |  n/a  1572   n/a  1669 mAh

09/23/09 C9000 Break-In: 1600    |  n/a  HIGH   n/a  OPEN mAh
09/22/09 Sears Solar LED Lamp    |  n/a   ---   n/a   --- mAh
09/20/09 BC900 Discharge:  100   |  n/a    63   n/a    90 mAh
09/20/09 C9000 Discharge:  400   |  n/a  1549   n/a  1638 mAh

09/20/09 C9000 Break-In: 1800    |  n/a  HIGH   n/a  OPEN mAh
09/19/09 C9000 Discharge:  100   |  n/a    15   n/a     0 mAh
09/19/09 C9000 Discharge:  400   |  n/a  1617   n/a  1676 mAh

09/20/09 C9000 Break-In: 2000    | 1639  HIGH  1655  MODE mAh
09/18/09 C9000 Discharge:  100   |    0   125     4    10 mAh
09/18/09 C9000 Discharge:  400   | 1556  1470  1498   960 mAh
09/11/09 SAKAR Charge:  150      |  n/a   ~24   n/a   ~24tHrs
09/10/09 C9000 Impedance Check:  |  n/a  1.62   n/a  1.64 VDC
09/10/09 Sears Solar LED Lamp    |  n/a   ---   n/a   --- mAh

08/23/09 BC900 Discharge:  100   |  n/a   ---   n/a   --- mAh
08/23/09 C9000 Discharge:  100   |  n/a   ---   n/a   --- mAh
08/23/09 C9000 Discharge:  400   |  n/a  1529   n/a  1706 mAh
08/23/09 C9000 Break-In          |  n/a  HIGH   n/a   n/a mAh#

08/21/09 BC900 Discharge:  100   |  n/a   ---   n/a   --- mAh 
08/21/09 C9000 Discharge: 1000   |  n/a  1396   n/a  1649 mAh
08/21/09 BC900 Charge: 1800      |  n/a +1781t  n/a   --- mAh

08/20/09 C9000 Break-In          | 1687   n/a  1698   n/a mAh#
08/19/09 C9000 Discharge: 1000   | 1664   n/a  1617   n/a mAh

08/18/09 C9000 Discharge:  100   |  n/a    74   n/a    38 mAh
08/18/09 C9000 Discharge:  400   |  n/a  1575   n/a  1663 mAh
08/18/09 C9000 Break-In          | 1729  HIGH  1781     3 mAh#

08/16/09 C9000 Impedance Check:  | 1.59  1.68  1.59  1.66 VDC
08/16/09 Superman 1AA Flashlight |   ~3    ~2    ~3    ~1 Min
08/16/09 BC900 Discharge:  100   |   21    28     8    77 mAh
08/16/09 C9000 Discharge:  100   |   77    54    91    28 mAh
08/16/09 C9000 Charge: 2000:3m   |  101   101   102   100 mAh

08/16/09 C9000 Impedance Check:  | 1.60  1.71  1.59  1.66 VDC
08/16/09 Superman 1AA Flashlight |   ~1    ~2    ~1    ~4 Min
08/16/09 BC900 Discharge:  100   |   22    26     8    41 mAh
08/16/09 C9000 Discharge:  100   |   35     9    47     2 mAh
08/16/09 C9000 Charge: 2000:2m   |   52    53    53    52 mAh

08/16/09 C9000 Impedance Check:  | 1.60  1.69  1.59  1.64 VDC
08/16/09 Superman 1AA Flashlight |   ~2   ~10    ~1    ~2 Min
08/16/09 BC900 Discharge:  100   |   23    28     8    46 mAh 
08/16/09 C9000 Discharge:  100   |   47    19    66     9 mAh
08/16/09 C9000 Charge: 2000:2m   |   53    54    54    53 mAh

08/15/09 C9000 Impedance Check:  | 1.60  1.67  1.59  1.59 VDC
08/15/09 Superman 1AA Flashlight |   ~2   ~30    ~7    ~6 Min
08/15/09 BC900 Discharge:  100   |   22     7    11    41 mAh
08/15/09 C9000 Discharge:  100   |   30     2    52     2 mAh
08/15/09 C9000 Charge: 2000:2m   |   53    56    56    54 mAh

08/15/09 C9000 Impedance Check:  | 1.60  1.70  1.60  1.79 VDC
08/15/09 BC900 Discharge:  100   |   33   RST    16   RST mAh
08/15/09 C9000 Discharge:  100   |  152   125   193    99 mAh
08/15/09 C9000 Charge: 2000:5m   |  200   201   203   201 mAh

08/13/09 Superman 1AA Flashlight |    2    15     2     2 Min
08/13/09 C9000 Impedance Check:  | 1.60  1.69  1.60  1.80 VDC
08/13/09 BC900 Discharge:  100   |   19    79    37   106 mAh
08/13/09 C9000 Discharge:  100   |   80    13    96    25 mAh
08/13/09 C9000 Charge: 1000:6m   |  100   100   100   100 mAh

08/13/09 C9000 Impedance Check:  | 1.60  1.68  1.60  1.80 VDC
08/13/09 BC900 Discharge:  100   |   18    93    27    99 mAh
08/13/09 C9000 Discharge:  100   |   54    25    98    16 mAh
08/13/09 C9000 Charge: 1000:6m   |  100   101   100   100 mAh

08/12/09 C9000 Impedance Check:  | 1.62  1.70  1.61  1.80 VDC
08/12/09 BC900 Discharge:  100   |   10   116    37   102 mAh
08/12/09 C9000 Discharge:  100   |   35    20    82     7 mAh
08/12/09 C9000 Charge: 1000:6m   |   90   101   110   100 mAh
08/12/09 BC900 Discharge:  100   |    0   118    41   100 mAh
08/12/09 C9000 Discharge:  100   |    0   167    19     0 mAh
[Bought: mm/dd/yy - HP Camera, GPS,
 09/27/09:1,3-RS Therm1(2.4mA), (topped off in BC900 @ 1800mA)
 09/28/09:2,4-RS Therm4(2.4mA), (topped off in BC900 @ 1800mA-TRIP!)]

My goal in the above experiment was to perform a 'Forming Charge' on an old set of Rayovac IC-3 cells WITHOUT tripping the internal pressure switch. #5 & 7 were fine but #6 & 8 were a real challenge. By lowering the Internal Resistance and lowering the Charge Current, I eventually achieved my goal.

 

[Mr Happy]

Re: Experimenting With Different 'Custom' Techniques...

I'll have to research this in the CPF Archives when I have more time, but, I recall differently

I have had some eneloops with high internal resistance after long storage. After one break-in cycle on the C9000 they were back to normal.

 

[palomino77]

Re: Experimenting With Different 'Custom' Techniques...

I've been experimenting with a 'Deep Discharge Technique' explained by 45/70, paraphrasing:

1. Discharge cell to 0.9VDC (initially I use 0.2C on my MH-C9000)
2. Deep Discharge cell again to 0.9VDC @ 100mA (I use my BC-900 since 20% of 500mA discharges more after 10% of 1000mA terminates)
3. Deep Discharge further with a 1AA Duracell Superman Incandescent flashlight
   - I notice that high Internal Resistance cells will run the flashlight for several minutes
4. Deep Discharge further with a 1AA Sears Solar LED Lamp (~24mA)
   - again, the higher the Internal Resistance, the longer the runtime
5. Measure the MH-C9000 Impedance Check Voltage
   - if still decreasing, continue; else, exit
6. Charge @ 1000mA for ~5-6 minutes (~100mAh input)
7. If Loop # < 6, Goto #2
8. Charge @ 150mA for ~16-20 hours
9. Goto #1

I don't have Sears solar lead etc. So I have been using small flashlight bulb to discharge after discharging in C9000, My question is: I know it is not good to discharge batteries in series but is it OK to discharge multiple batteries in parallel?

 

[45/70]

My question is: I know it is not good to discharge batteries in series but is it OK to discharge multiple batteries in parallel?

Yes, discharging them in parallel is OK. Nickel based cells don't take kindly to charging in parallel though. The bulb idea is also good. Tom (SilverFox) suggested that to me a looong time ago. It works pretty well. If you have a lot of crystallization, you can see the bulb sorta flash, as the crystals break up.

Keep in mind that the procedure that Take is referring to, was for badly crystallized cells. Unless your cells are really bad, discharging them on the C9000 @ 100mA should do just fine.

The real problem with the C9000's discharge, is that even when you set it at 100mA discharge rate, it's really pulsing 1000mA one tenth of the time, as it works by PWM. So, for really bad cells an alternative discharge method that actually discharges at a set current, is preferable to pulsed discharging.

Hey Take, do you think you could link a reference to that thread where I was explaining "The Procedure" naughty to the actual post, or thread? My problem is, I don't remember the title of the thread, when it was or much anything else about it. :sigh: As you have it now, it just links to my profile. A bit uninteresting, if you ask me.

Dave

 

[PeAK]

.
.
...Hey Take, do you think you could link a reference to that thread where I was explaining "The Procedure" naughty to the actual post, or thread? My problem is, I don't remember the title of the thread, when it was or much anything else about it.
.
.

Sorry about stealing Take's thunder but here is your post. This is like "Being 45/70"...:thinking: We can talk about fishing for a lifetime, later.

 

[lrp]

Thanks for posting those Eneloop links, I found them to be very helpful!!

 

[45/70]

We can talk about fishing for a lifetime, later.

Thanks PeAK, for the fishing effort. That post however, was during the early stages of "The Project" and not the one describing "The Procedure".

My obtaining a CBA II allowed me to further understand what was happening with old cells like this. This resulted at one point, in my posting in one of the Maha C9000 FAQ threads. This is the post where the actual procedure is outlined and where I think TTA should link.

Just a reminder to anyone attempting "The Procedure", that my conclusion was pretty much that it is a lot of work for nothing, in most cases. When cells are this bad, the recovery rate is so low, that it's not really worth messing with.

Now, unless the OP wants to change the title of this thread to "Breaking in really old batteries" (No, that's not you TTA ), I think we've strayed to the outer limits of staying on topic.

Dave

 

[palomino77]

45/70;3190800]Yes, discharging them in parallel is OK.
Hey Take, do you think you could link a reference to that thread where I was explaining "The Procedure" naughty to the actual post, or thread? My problem is, I don't remember the title of the thread, when it was or much anything else about it. :sigh: As you have it now, it just links to my profile. A bit uninteresting, if you ask me.

Dave

I first discharge with C9000 at 100mah. Am doing the charge for five minutes bit also. I enjoy playing doctor to crap cells, don't really need them.

Here is the post I got it from.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=3108987&postcount=5

Thank you I am learning a lot from you guys. About 5 months ago I was a normal person living a normal life now I am a addict.

This is my multi battery deep discharge setup. Those are my new 850 mah batteries that missed termintion and got cooked with 2400 + mah. on cycle mode on C9000.

 

[45/70]

Looks and sounds good to me, Palo.

You are correct in discharging with your C9000 at it's slowest rate (100mA). The slower the rate, the better the crystallization breaks up. The bulb setup, provided it draws a low enough current, works well too, as it's not a PWM'ed 1000mA!

As long as you're just curious and don't have great expectations, you should do fine with your setup.

Carry on Sir!

Dave

 

[TakeTheActive]

Re: Experimenting With Different 'Custom' Techniques...

I don't have Sears solar lead etc. So I have been using small flashlight bulb to discharge after discharging in C9000, My question is: I know it is not good to discharge batteries in series but is it OK to discharge multiple batteries in parallel?

No, not in this 'Procedure'.

It appears to me that you don't understand WHY certain steps, using certain equipment, are being performed to achieve the desired goal (lower the cell's Internal Resistance). :thinking:

Although based on 45/70's original idea, for which I gave him credit, (from his post: Dendrite/crystal removal), I PARAPHASED (added and/or re-ordered steps) and FORMATTED it in my post to emphasize how each step, at a continuously decreasing load current, POSSIBLY will dissolve / breakup more crystals.

By connecting your cells in parallel, how can you detect the minute voltage variations as the larger crystals breakdown into small ones?

Also, are you sitting there constantly monitoring the voltage so that it doesn't drop TOO low?

You might want to build yourself a circuit:

Cell Recovery: Homemade Low-Cost Automatic 0.7VDC Discharge Circuit​

palomino77,

• Why are you doing this?
  .
• What is the C9000 Impedance Check Voltage of your cells?
  .
• What is the 'Percent of Rated Capacity' of your cells (Discharged @ 0.2C)?

 

[palomino77]

Thank You

Why are you doing this?

Just for fun and learning. I didn't know they could get over discharged. I just let them discharge with bulb until it went out then I let rest and put back on until it went off again, until it didn't go on, normal 2 times.
.
What is the C9000 Impedance Check Voltage of your cells?

The first time around it was: 1.66v, 1.65v, 1.66v, 1.66v and second time
around was: 1.64v, 1.62v, 1.62v. 1.62v
.
What is the 'Percent of Rated Capacity' of your cells (Discharged @ 0.2C)?

The brand new never used energizer cells are rated at 850 mah but after the first break-in they where around 170 mah. I discharged and the rating was more or less the same. I decided to cycle at 400 charge and 200 discharge. and went to bed. got up early and they had missed termination and where all over 2400 mA on first cycle. They are slowly getting better, last time I charged they where around 450 mA had to terminate manually, I don't know why they don't terminate and get very warm. I'm also doing the same with some panasonic 750 mAH cells about 4-5 years old, being used on low dischrge items. They are getting better also, they are around 500 mah, these do terminate. I'll keep records from now on. I have been keeping records on others cells, most are good cells.

 

[45/70]

Real quick Palo, it's late here. It won't hurt to discharge your cells in parallel. Your goal will be accomplished just the same. You're just discharging a battery, instead of an individual cell.

Just for fun and learning. I didn't know they could get over discharged. I just let them discharge with bulb until it went out then I let rest and put back on until it went off again, until it didn't go on, normal 2 times.

You should never do this to nickel based cells in series, or individual, or paralleled NiMH cells, at all. NiMH cells suffer some degree of permanent damage when discharged below 0.85-0.90 Volts under load. The amount of damage depends on the amount of over discharge, and the time spent in this condition.

NiCd's are much more tolerant of this, and individual cells can be discharged to 0 Volts, as long as you don't do it routinely. In series you run the risk of reverse charging a cell though, and while NiCd's are more durable in this regard, reverse charging is still damaging to them.

Dave

 

[WDG]

after the first break-in they where around 170 mah.

Hmmm. Bad right out of the package? :thinking: I likely would have discharged and run another break-in, or two or three, before going to cycles. Not a good sign that they were so bad from the very start, though.

 

[palomino77]

Could someone please tell me why these brand new worthless, will never buy again, energizer batteries don't terminate, I had to pull off again from C9000 at 1000+ mA. What am I doing wrong? I have all kinds of very old crap cells and none get hot and all terminate. The last time I checked impedance on these they where: 1.63, 1.60, 1.61, 1.60. Aren't these supposed to be OK? I bought 3 months ago in walmart and just opened.

 

[Bones]

...

The brand new never used energizer cells are rated at 850 mah but after the first break-in they where around 170 mah. I discharged and the rating was more or less the same. I decided to cycle at 400 charge and 200 discharge. and went to bed. got up early and they had missed termination and where all over 2400 mah on first cycle. They are slowly getting better, last time I charged they where around 450 mah had to terminate manually, I don't know why they don't terminate and get very warm. I'm also doing the same with some panasonic 750 mah cells about 4-5 years old, being used on low dischrge items. They are getting better also, they are around 500 mah, these do terminate. I'll keep records from now on. I have been keeping records on others cells, most are good cells.

I recently undertook the rehabilitation of a new pair of 850mAh Energizer AA cells as well. These had been tossed into a drawer when I received my new Eneloops, and were basically forgotten about for close to three years.

Out of the package they both measured 0.0 volts, so I started the process by subjecting them to a series of break-in cycles (forming charges) on an MH-C9000. The capacity basically stalled at around 175mAh for the first few cycles, so I decided to subject them to one more and then recycle them if there was no improvement.

Interestingly, that break-in cycle resulted in a capacity jump from around 175mAh to close to 700mAh for both cells. I hadn't been really tracking the number of break-in cycles at that point, but I believe it was about the fifth that caused the leap in capacity.

Anyway, I've since subjected them to a series of 0.5C and 1.0C charges and discharges and a few more forming charge, and the cells seem to be functioning normally now, albeit with reduced capacity, which remains just under 700mAh.

 

[Bones]

Could someone please tell me why these brand new worthless, will never buy again, energizer batteries don't terminate, I had to pull off again from C9000 at 1000+ mah. What am I doing wrong? I have all kinds of very old crap cells and none get hot and all terminate. The last time I checked impedance on these they where: 1.63, 1.60, 1.61, 1.60. Aren't these supposed to be OK? I bought 3 months ago in walmart and just opened.

[image]

...

Depending on the rate of charge, perhaps they simply weren't fully charged yet. Were you able to determine if the voltage was still rising or was it stalled? As well, do you recall what the voltage reading was when you pulled the cells?