Bulbs and Amps and EMF for SF turbo heads

[brandx]

A month ago I was happily esconced in the LED section ( not so anxiously) awaiting the newest LEDto light my world. Yeah, I had an M4 and AE PL24 that I NEEDED :naughty: when living on a ranch, but LED's were my cerebral entertainment and things were so slow I had to get Milky to 'fix' an M3 so it was 'fun' again.
Then DM51 had to go and do his shootout :bow: Whats all this about? So now I have a BigLeef, Leef 18650 bodies, M6, M3T, FM bi-pin holders, AW cells, Litho WA bulbs, and am in DIRE NEED of FM 3x17670 holders for M6, as well as his C extender ( hint to FM). It's all DM's fault that now I must learn to spell incandescent and my wallet is looking for an attorney to file charges of abuse against me, and to top it off I have to learn all this STUFF about amps, mAh and voltage sag. Ergo, this post.
In the stickies is a list of current draw compiled by 'rikvee' a couple years back for most of these bulbs, and current threads show various beamshots. I decided to verify current draws and add to the list so here goes:

All cells are AW protected @ 4.0-4.1V (+ power label) except for SF primaries as noted.

9V nominal :

EO-M3T 2.38 @ 2 x C 2 x 18650
MN-20 2.2 @ 2 x C 2 x 18650 6 x SF123
MN-21 5.0 @ 2 x C
4.5 @ 6 x SF123
4.85 @ 2 x 18650 but will not COLD START
this was not expected, and frankly is motivation for post
WA 1111 3.5 @ 2 x 18650 and 3s2p SF123

12V nominal :

WA 1185 3.5 @ 3 x C and 3 x 18650
HO-M6R 2.15 @ 3 x C and 3 x 18650
MN-60 1.75 @ 3 x C and 3 x 18650
MN-61 2.95 @ 3 x C and 3 x 18650

Conclusions:

-My amps on the MN6x series ran a bit more than the referenced data, but the rest were pretty close.
-The EO-M3T was not included in the previous data and seems to be a very nice bulb.
-I really like the 'feel' of the BigLeef vs the std M6. Hope this and AW's "C" cells stick around as it is mandatory for the MN21 with Lions.

 

[mdocod]

I'm surprised to hear that the MN61 is surviving that 3xC setup.

The big-leef system has always intrigued me, as I've always thought that "C" bodied flashlights were that perfect feel of size.

Someday

Eric

 

[cl0123]

...and I just started a C-cells related thread on the General section.

Holy mly, please pardon my French

I too landed upon CPF in search of the coolest LED, at least initially. However, incans really capture more of my attentions nowadays. Anyway, before I wasted bandwidth on getting philosophical, may I ask for some images of the BigLeef setups? :candle:

An M4 is due to arrive soon (thanks Bruce!) but after seeing some photos from Dan on his M4 setup, I am thinking my old Maglites do look more aesthetically balanced than the head-heavy form of the M4.

With Aloha,

Clarence

 

[DM51]

Here is a photo showing 2 possible combinations, for 2-cell and 3-cell bodies (AW 'C' Li-Ion cells). They are shown here with a standard M6. You can read more about them in this thread.

Leef also made body tubes to take the longer 26700-size cells, and there is a thread here about what can be done with these...

 

[cl0123]

DM51,

Thanks for the images. In a strange way, perhaps my focus is circling back to the Mag 2-3-4 forms. OTOH, if I understand the battery chemistry correctly, the larger C-sized li-ions are actually better answers to the demands of incandescent bulbs.

I must say that your 26700-C lego looks like a Klingon weapon. (btw, good tungsten lighting on this pic)

Does that mean this particular still-available BigLeef 26650 piece is an AW C-sized? I need some help here because according to the AW's own C-cell sales thread in the CPF MarketPlace Dealer's area, his cells are already longer than the regular alkaline C-cells.

I can already see some challenges (for myself) in the C-cell format.

1. AW suggested ICE and Triton chargers. They look like RC hobby charges and quite expensive, not to mention they require a power-supply-converter for AC uses.
2. AW protected C cells are longer than regular alkaline C-cells. So even if I had a suitable spare bi-pin bulb of compatible input voltages, switching from C li-ions to C alkalines may require a spacer or a longer spring in the tail cap.
3. Not to mention, gathering the parts since they are out of production.

Otherwise, despite its larger size and weight, C-cells extra capacity is a good compromise for longer incandescent run-times. If I were to pick from your side-by-side photos, I think the 2C BigLeef powering a WA 1111 would be perfect for my uses.

With Aloha,

Clarence

Didn't I come here to look for super-bright and ultra-efficient LED lights? :thinking: Why am I going back to incan?

 

[brandx]

Eric... I have only a few minutes run time on these tests so I have no idea what the life of the MN61 will be. DM51 in his shootout undoubtedly ran this bulb longer than I.

The BigLeef has a nicer feel and heft than the M6 in my opinion and I am quite pleased with it. I am charging AW's 'C' cells via a Pila charger. I got a couple C cell holders from local store, soldered some brass tabs to the leads, and use a wooden dowel to hold the leads to Pila contacts. It is probably undersupplying the amps for optimum charging but seems to be working.

 

[DM51]

The BigLeef body modules come in 2 sizes: the shorter 26520 size, which are knurled and fit AW's 'C' Li-Ions; and the longer 26700 size, which are the teardrop style instead of knurled (as in that pic of mine above). These are for the longer cells such as A123 or Emoli, which are different chemistries.

As to availability of BigLeef parts, you'll need to check with Lighthound - Leef sells all his stuff through them and they sometimes have to wait a long time for new stock when they sell out.

As to charging the AW 'C' Li-ions, I use a hobby charger and charge them in parallel at 0.7C. Smaller chargers will work, but they will be slow as they mostly can't deliver the optimum current.

 

[cl0123]

brandx,

Any chance you may have a pic of your Pila setup? I seem to recall seeing something similar on CPF, but no luck so far with the search engine.

As to charging the AW 'C' Li-ions, I use a hobby charger and charge them in parallel at 0.7C. Smaller chargers will work, but they will be slow as they mostly can't deliver the optimum current.

David,

What would be the optimum current?

Now I wish I did not give away the RC hobby chargers. Wait, that was the time when orange Novac (I think) chargers and Trinity 1700 cells were a big deal!

With Aloha,

Clarence

 

[brandx]

Clarence.... not camera equipped but easy to verbally elaborate:
you need :
1) Pila or WF-139 charger. Both can handle 18650 cells
2) wooden dowels, 5/8" or 3/4" dia and cut at 2-1/2" long
3) C cell battery holders from Radio Shack or similar
4) some brass bar stock, maybe 1/32" or 1/16" thick and 1/4" wide.
- cut several pcs about 1-1/4" long

-Solder the brass strips to the leads of the C battery holders
-put C cells in battery holders
-put wooden dowels in the charger like they are the batteries
-slip the brass strip on the + (red) wire from C holder between the dowel and the + side of charger
-slip the brass strip on the - (black) wire from C holder between the dowel and the - side of charger.

All you are doing is using a wooden dowel to hold the brass strips connected to the leads of the C battery in the charger.

 

[santza]

Actually you can get a quite decent hobby charger for 50 bucks delivered. I have one and I'm very impressed. I charge my aw C cells with that. check out dx. (moderators: no advertising purposes intended)

 

[cl0123]

brandx,

I got the picture, thanks.

Finally found the thread on adapting an AW charger to accept C-cells.

Here's the visual of one version

This is a crude version but wins the simplicity award.

With Aloha,

Clarence


Note: Let's see if this post can take advantage of the time continuum bug in the flux-capacitor in the DeLorean and jump in front of DM51's "pre-reply"?

 

[cl0123]

Actually you can get a quite decent hobby charger for 50 bucks delivered. I have one and I'm very impressed. I charge my aw C cells with that. check out dx. (moderators: no advertising purposes intended)

Any chance you may have a link to your charger?

Thanks!

With Aloha,

Clarence

Note: Continuing to exploit the time traveling capability from now till the earth-date October 13

 

[DM51]

LOL Clarence, I can tell you've been getting at the 1.21 Gigawatts again - just don't forget I warned you about hooking up to the clock-tower during a lightning-storm. You're making my poor but futuristic old post look a bit jaded.

For those who have come back from the future at some point to read this thread, a post will be made by me later today beginning as follows:

There is a figure for batteries known as C...

… which actually belongs between posts #9 and #10 above. Clarence has been messing around with the continuum, so you can blame him for this alarming state of affairs, lol.

The pics he shows in post #11 of the modified WF-139 chargers illustrate different versions of roughly what brandx was talking about in post #9. These solutions will work, but as I discuss in my future post, the charging rate with this charger is very slow for a 'C' Li-Ion. At an output of 450mA, it will take >7 hours to charge the cell. Yes, it will work; but it will be sloooooooooow…

Of course, if you are Clarence, or if you possess his skills, you can always hop back to yesterday and start charging then, so by now it should be ready.

 

[cl0123]

Flux Capacitor time 23:42 here...

Seven hours for one C-cell? Thanks for the illuminations through numbers. If I bought three (say, for your 3C BigLeef setup) chargers, that still equate seven simultaneous hours. That would be quite a challenge to overcome. Does anyone remember the good old days of trickle-charge one 6-cell nicad pads overnight just to make one run on a 1:10 RC with a 380 motor? I belonged to that age. :laughing:

Don't blame Clarence. On the island my friends love to say, "blame da Menehune!"

With Aloha,

Clarence

...Clarence has been messing around with the continuum, so you can blame him for this alarming state of affairs, lol.

At an output of 450mA, it will take >7 hours to charge the cell. Yes, it will work; but it will be sloooooooooow…

 

[DM51]

What would be the optimum current?

There is a figure for batteries known as C (not to be confused with 'C' size cells) which is the current that the battery can deliver for 1 hour. In other words, it is the same figure as the battery's capacity in mAh. An AW 'C' Li-Ion has a capacity of 3,300 mAh, so its figure for C is 3,300mA. Li-Ion cells should be charged at between 0.5C - 1C, ideally at 0.7C. The math is not difficult: 0.7 x 3,300 = 2,310mA, so ~2.3A is the "ideal" charging current. However, they are reasonably flexible, and as long as you stay above 0.1C and never exceed 1C they will be fine.

brandx's solution outlined in post #9 is perfectly OK, and the majority of CPFers without hobby chargers will be using this or similar methods. You just have to accept that at the lower charging rate, the charging time will obviously be quite a bit longer.

 

[Chrontius]

DM51,

Thanks for the images. In a strange way, perhaps my focus is circling back to the Mag 2-3-4 forms. OTOH, if I understand the battery chemistry correctly, the larger C-sized li-ions are actually better answers to the demands of incandescent bulbs.

I must say that your 26700-C lego looks like a Klingon weapon. (btw, good tungsten lighting on this pic)

Does that mean this particular still-available BigLeef 26650 piece is an AW C-sized? I need some help here because according to the AW's own C-cell sales thread in the CPF MarketPlace Dealer's area, his cells are already longer than the regular alkaline C-cells.

I can already see some challenges (for myself) in the C-cell format.

1. AW suggested ICE and Triton chargers. They look like RC hobby charges and quite expensive, not to mention they require a power-supply-converter for AC uses.
2. AW protected C cells are longer than regular alkaline C-cells. So even if I had a suitable spare bi-pin bulb of compatible input voltages, switching from C li-ions to C alkalines may require a spacer or a longer spring in the tail cap.
3. Not to mention, gathering the parts since they are out of production.

Otherwise, despite its larger size and weight, C-cells extra capacity is a good compromise for longer incandescent run-times. If I were to pick from your side-by-side photos, I think the 2C BigLeef powering a WA 1111 would be perfect for my uses.

With Aloha,

Clarence

Didn't I come here to look for super-bright and ultra-efficient LED lights? :thinking: Why am I going back to incan?

Because once you bought a rechargeable incan, you could forget about how much you spent feeding primaries to an M series? I initially justified buying 123a cells for an Inova as "the same amount of energy per buck, in fewer batteries" and moved on to higher-powered lights... but when I built my ROP, it was only the first rechargeable incandescent of many (if you count the Roar of the Dolphin mod that's waiting on parts, and the A2 that's in dire need of an onion ring and some RCRs)...

Once you can just drop the batteries on charge, you start worrying a little less about efficiency and more about output.

 

[jumpstat]

Spending some budget for a pro charger would be worthwhile for faster and safer maintenance of your hardearned collection..