CAUTION !! Misleading budget battery and lumen claims

[uk_caver]

Re: CAUTION !! When a battery label becomes meaningless

I know it seems like splitting hairs, but indeed a 12% increase is all you get with the new XM-L2 and that was enough to release an entire new series of light for some manufacturers. The big deal seems like to me it is just in the fact that people want to be able to say that they have the newest and brightest light regardless of its useful functions.

Indeed - hardly anyone would be able to tell the difference between two lights which had 12% difference in output even in good comparison conditions.
Personally I haven't upgraded my own homebuilt caving lights unless I could get at least 50% more output out of them, even when the only cost was new LEDs and a small amount of time.

But if I'm selling something, being able to up the lumen output by 12% for the same runtime might make it more attractive to some people, especially if it pushes it past some arbitrary numeric threshold, because a lot of people seem to gravitate to raw lumen figures even when comparing two lights with significantly different beamshape options or user interfaces.

 

[florinache]

Re: CAUTION !! When a battery label becomes meaningless

I unwrapped two of my Ultrafire 18650's (unused, due to their misleading specs: 4000mah! The site I bought them from two years ago when I wasn't familiar with this type of batteries now has some of these http://lanterne-profesionale.com/ba...lator-ldl-vda-li-ion-18650-3-7v-6800-mah.html )

So what was inside:
One of them a Panasonic 2200mah cell, probably from a laptop, the soldering marks still visible.
And the other a 1100mah 3.2V cell.
Both were selled as protected.

So what could happen if you try to charge to 4,2V a battery that has a maximum charge voltage of 3,65V? Isn't it a potential bomb?

 

[B42]

Re: CAUTION !! When a battery label becomes meaningless

Vidpro: there are so many scam alerts in the reviews for cells being sold on Amazon right now that it isn't freaking funny.

Langham: I like it when you post a big fat chunk of text. The bigger the better, the way you write. You sound like you've got a great grasp on heat transfer and dissapation.

...and seriously: if a 4x increase in lumens only means a doubling in perceived brightness, what's with all the splitting hairs concerning an extra 4%-15% in brightness from overdriving the crap out of your electrical system? Just curious. Please discuss and debate.

disclaimer: I've got a few overdriven lights myself.

I became interested in high powered LED lights and batteries due to having to hike in the dark with my dogs and found out the hard way on these Chinese knockoff brands, glad to see a warning posted at the top here. I bought several 18650 battery sets to power the lights I bought and on the 3x Cree T6 "3800 lumen" Trustfire (692x3= approx 2100 max according to Cree website @2A) got a 32 min runtime on high with "Ultrafire 3000mAh" battery set, 17mins with my "5000 mAh" blue batteries... less than acceptable for my 2hr+ hikes thats for certain, and worse, they started to degrade after recharging. I tried several purchases, and all had similar poor results. So, after doing some research I found the Orbtronic 3400mAh protected cells and bought those: what a world of difference! 1hr 21min for 2 3400 mAh vs 32min "3000 mAh" and 17 min "5000 mAh" garbage. With the above functionality, I can unscientifically but very much more accurately rate the "5000 mAh" China batteries as approx 710 mAh and "Ultrafire 3000 mAh" as approx 1340 mAh BEFORE they degraded further! Its hard to believe the extremely sub par quality and/or recycled crap from China that is now being sold on Amazon. I complained to a seller of the "5000 mAh" and of course only got the "thats what the factory labeled them" excuse, he offered me more free crappy "5000 mAh" (710 mAh) garbage and went right on with the listings. People should be rightly warned on any Chinese battery purchase beforehand!

 

[chucka]

I ordered several 18650, 26oomAh batteries on line. They were shipped from Singapore. They say they are protected but when I removed the plastic jacket, all I saw was a metal can , no return strip. Could these still be a protected type? Thanks

Budget 18650 batteries are usualy in the neighborhood of 2000mah give or take. Some are also reused rewrapped laptop batteries sold as new. This applies to ultrafire and trustfire branded batteries as well as some others. The 2 brands mentioned are the most likely to have false claims.

Currently there is no commercialy available 18650 that is over 3100mah. The true 3100mah 18650 cells are pricey compared to their counterparts with false claims. (3100mah last time I checked)

Cree is an LED manufacturer. Their LED's are installed in the most common budget flashlights you will see. Cree has datasheets available online for you to look at the real specs of the LED.

The majority of current budget lights are installed with a cree XML-t6. This LED is rated at 1000 lumens when properly driven. When you see a flashlight seller that advertises more than 1000 lumens with a single XML-t6 you are being lied to. Also note this amount of light will not make it out the front lens of the flashlight. Consider heat, driver, budget battery, poorly designed host for heatsinking, budget lens.

I hope this will help some people make an educated purchase on their next budget light. I like the budget lights but also believe you usualy get what you pay... not always.

 

[HKJ]

I ordered several 18650, 26oomAh batteries on line. They were shipped from Singapore. They say they are protected but when I removed the plastic jacket, all I saw was a metal can , no return strip. Could these still be a protected type? Thanks

There exist some 18650 where the protection is placed at the + pole, they will not have a strip.

 

[xevious]

Given all of these glaring problems found with Ultrafire, Trustfire, and WhateverFire batteries that aim for the budget conscious battery buyer, I'm feeling like there should be a prominent warning on the top of this sub forum. Basically state something like this:

"After numerous deliberate tests and consumer reported issues, it is becoming glaringly evident that the cheaper Chinese battery cells being sold under names like "Trustfire, Ultrafire, Spiderfire, etc." are often labeled with deceitful claims. For example, a 3100mAh labeled cell turning out to be 2200mAh or even less. In addition, they have been known to have extremely short lifespans and even protected cells have been known to fail, exploding during a charging cycle. Read on for specific instances of these issues..."

I was seeing an above average number of positive reviews on the Ultrafire 3.7v 18650 3000mAh cells. But if a brand is so outright guilty of putting junk cells wrapped in plastic labeled with specs that basically lie, how can they be trusted for anything? How many people have posted positive reviews only from their first usage? One of the more prevalent negatives is that these budget Chinese cells don't last. If you tally up the cost on replacement and sub par performance, you end up spending more than you would with quality cells from the start.

 

[PapaLumen]

OP might want to alter first post to mention top cells are now panny 3400mah.

 

[Shadow352008]

I've personally harvested quite a few 18650 type batteries from laptop battery packs to use for other purposes, and so far the highest listed capacity that I've found is from a Toshiba pack claiming 14.8 volts at 6450 mah. There are four battery groups in series with 3 batteries in parallel in each group which means that each battery should be 3.7V at 2150 mah. As I said, this is the highest milli-amp hour claim that I've found so far and have never seen a 3000 mah battery listed.

 

[langham]

I have never seen the 3400 mAh batteries in a laptop the largest I have seen is 2200 mAh cells, but I have seen them in 3 series 4 parallel arrangement that made the total capacity a lot higher.

 

[Shadow352008]

Now, I HAVE found that most laptop packs contain 12 cells of the 18650 type but vary widely in the amp hour claims. Some cells are stamped 18650A, some as 18650H, and others as 18650GR, so I suppose that there are a lot of 18650 types with different amp hour capacity. In looking at two packs right now, both have 12 cells, one with 18650A cells claims 6.0 amp hours and the other with 18650GR cells claims 6.45 amp hours. So far, I've found that the GR type has the highest amp hour rating claimed on the outer battery pack case.

 

[langham]

Typically you can look up the individual cell and find out who manufactured them and then get the data sheet for them. I had one that was LG and one that was Samsung, both 2200mAh and the LG was better as individual cells.

 

[Barrel mount]

One of the more prevalent negatives is that these budget Chinese cells don't last. If you tally up the cost on replacement and sub par performance, you end up spending more than you would with quality cells from the start.

How long do they last ? Do you have data for each brand and their longevity?

 

[Bruce722]

In regards to batteries, I saw the claim "you get what you pay for". Exactly what does this mean? Do we have a published list of "acceptable" prices? For example: On eBay, I saw a pair (2) for Panasonic NCR18650B (3400mAh) for around $20. The same vendor sold a "single" (1) Nitecore NL189 (also 3400mAh) for about $22. You can get a pair (2) of Trustfire "4000mAh" 18650 with charger for $8 on Amazon!! I understand the Trustfires are way out of range, but what about the others?

A would like to see a list of "acceptable" prices for 14500's and RCR123's (including capacity).

Bruce

 

[langham]

You have to use a reputable site to know the price range that they use, then you have to look at the cell that the other site is using and find out if it is what it claims to be. The reason that single 3400mAh cell is the same price as 2 of the effectively exact same cell is that one doesn't have a protection circuit built in. That means that you could kill a $10 cell by over charging/discharging. The Trustfire isn't worth $.10, any battery that clearly overstates the capacity is not worth your time. The way I did it is at first I bought some of the best batteries on the market (ie IMR 18650s) for $15 each. Then I bought some of the cheapest (get on DX and arrange all of the 18650 cells from cheapest to most expensive), and then I bought some that were halfway between. I found that the ones that were about $5 per cell were of the best quality for the price. As far as capacity per dollar goes, that is why this thread exists, because people are frustrated with cheap cells that claim more than they actually put out. The Panasonic NCR18650B should be around 10-11 dollars without protections and 15-20 with protection, I have seen that much range. I use the SKU: 26248 for all of my cheap 18650 flashlights and the Panasonic NCR18650B unprotected for all of my nice lights. I am not an normal user of the other cells. I got my Panasonic cells for 10.50 each, I hope this helps. I would be willing to help further with more specific questions if needed. If you have any complaints about specific cells be sure to post them.

 

[balticvid]

What is the best 18650 for my Nitecore SRT7 ?
Nitecore has a 3400mAH (189) which is made in China. Not cheap
Orbtronic 3400mAH which is supposed to be a Panasonic made in Japan. Others??

I would like to get a good reliable output and protected battery. Any ideas would be appreciated.

I was also looking at a XTAR VP1 battery charger.
What do you guys think?

I need some help. This stuff gets confusing. Thanks

 

[langham]

They virtually all have the same cell, it just depends on the circuitry. You should get an IMR cell for it.

 

[sav]

As I am looking to purchase some 18650s with a charger, this thread has really made me reconsider my choices.
There are lots of 3800 /4000/ 4200 /5000mah batteries out there!
Help me! Are all these potential fakes?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-X-UltraFi...US_Rechargeable_Batteries&hash=item461575c8f4
http://www.ebay.com/itm/111159029411?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
http://www.ebay.com/itm/300903446482?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

 

[balticvid]

What's an IMR cell. As you can see, I'm new at these 18650's.
Thanks

 

[uk_caver]

There are lots of 3800 /4000/ 4200 /5000mah batteries out there!
Help me! Are all these potential fakes?

They're essentially guaranteed not to have the claimed capacity.

 

[langham]

IMR cells have lower than normal internal resistance which allows them to send more current and have higher efficiency than a normal cell. You will get more Vf for a given battery configuration because they do not have as large of a voltage drop across the cell. With a cheap cell I can get about 2A and with the same flashlight an IMR cell that is pretty old will give me 2.6A so as you can see, that is a large difference. Just do a google for IMR 18650, you could also look at 18700 batteries if they will fit in your light.