Circadian / Integrative / Human Centric Lighting

jtr1962

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The invention of artificial lighting makes sleeping early impractical? It doesn't get any more practical than retiring and rising with the setting and rising of the sun. A time on the clock is entirely incidental, and if you didn't have a clock or artificial lighting, that's precisely what you'd do. I guess it's just too bad you have no control over your artificial lighting and are compelled to stay up later.
It's impractical because you might not necessarily feel like sleeping simply because the sun is down.

My body tells me to stay up later, not the clock or artificial lighting. In fact, in the winters when it gets dark earlier I actually seem to shift to an even later schedule.
 

chillinn

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It's not your cup of tea, granted. It's not something you would want to do, nor will you do. Please do as you wish, whatever makes you happy. But to sweep a perfectly valid option off the table that undoubtedly would be successful in achieving the goal with the least amount of effort, and incorrectly labelling it "impractical," iow, unrealistic, not sensible, impossible, is simply not accurate, because it is realistic, it most certainly is sensible, and it is, in fact, possible. If we could dial down the exaggeration we might better see what we're talking about, which is the difficulty you imagine, due to the development of lighting technology, to go to bed early. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, maybe it is impossible for you. But you are not everyone. And are you, personally, even interested in what it would solve? Are your circadian rhythms a concern to you that you would like your installed lighting to help you regulate? Or is it merely that you feel compelled to disagree and argue with me? Because I can assure you that you will never find satisfaction nor any victory there for reasons that could only drive you mad.
 
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jtr1962

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It's not your cup of tea, granted. It's not something you would want to do, nor will you do.
It's something that I literally can't do without feeling lousy all the time.
Please do as you wish, whatever makes you happy. But to sweep a perfectly valid option off the table that undoubtedly would be successful in achieving the goal with the least amount of effort, and incorrectly labelling it "impractical," iow, unrealistic, not sensible, impossible, is simply not accurate, because it is realistic, it most certainly is sensible, and it is, in fact, possible.
Impractical because people have stuff to do. Most can't just stop the minute the sun goes down regardless of whether they're morning or night people. Maybe a person with absolutely no responsibilities can try it (i.e. most likely a retired person). Everyone else has reasons for not living by the sun, like school, work, child care, elder care, home repairs, etc.

If we could dial down the exaggeration we might better see what we're talking about, which is the difficulty you imagine, due to the development of lighting technology, to go to bed early. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, maybe it is impossible for you.
There's no practical gain for me to shift from a late to an early schedule. It's more of the bias of let's "fix" night people by trying all sorts of hacks (none of which really work long term) to get them on an early schedule. It's the same number of hours awake either way. Being on an early schedule though makes me a lot less productive. When I worked, I did twice as much work in the 3 hours after lunch as I did in the 5 hours before. When I was in school, I kind of, sort of learned a little in class, but most of my learning was reading and studying at home during the hours my mind was better able to absorb the information. I also chronically felt tired on an early schedule, regardless of how much sleep I got. I liken night people being stuck on an early schedule to day people being forced to start their day at 2 AM, instead of 7 or 8. Most could never fully adjust to it.

But you are not everyone. And are you, personally, even interested in what it would solve? Are your circadian rhythms a concern to you that you would like your installed lighting to help you regulate?
I don't doubt the type of lighting being discussed here could help some people. However, a better solution is simply for society to become more cognizant of the fact that people have differing circadian rhythms. If we accommodate them, we all benefit in terms of greater productivity. A night person for example might fill the niche of dealing with clients in China. Alot of work people do mostly by themselves. In that case, there's no reason to compel them to do the work at times when they're less productive just to fit some arbitrary schedule. If there needs to be collaboration, there are always hours of overlap for day and night people, generally mid or late afternoons.

Or is it merely that you feel compelled to disagree and argue with me? Because I can assure you that you will never find satisfaction nor any victory there for reasons that could only drive you mad.
I only feel compelled to disagree if you say stuff which I either know from experience is wrong, or you become too dogmatic. I'm an engineer with lots of practical experience and knowledge dealing with LED lighting. In other threads you've said stuff which just doesn't happen, like blue LEDs shifting output to UV. Someone else here mentioned your sanctimonious attitude. We're all right sometimes and wrong sometimes. I'm happy to stand corrected when someone shows me I'm wrong. You on the other hand often remind me of the "stolen election" crowd. No matter how much evidence you show them, they'll continue to insist they're right. Keep in mind that here at CPF we have many highly educated, smart people. They're going to see right through some of your arguments. At that point if you keep insisting what you say is correct you're going to come out looking foolish.
 

chillinn

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There's no practical gain for me to shift from a late to an early schedule.
I missed where anyone suggested that you do.

Most could never fully adjust to it.
How do you know what most can and can't do?

or you become too dogmatic
It is your opinions, feebly supported, that we are discussing. Mostly we seem to be focused on what you are unable to do. I'm fine with it. I would not presume to tell you how to live. I did not give the only solution, just a single solution, among many, that could conceivably and realistically offer the OP and any subsequent readers looking for the same, and excluding you, apparently, a simple and effective way to achieve the stated goal. I haven't remotely suggested that it is even the best solution, but it is a solution nevertheless, and a valid solution, since circadian rhythms are known to be regulated by daylight.

They're going to see right through some of your arguments.

It is your argument. You brought it here. I have merely advocated for the accuracy of my position by decimating it.
 
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jtr1962

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How do you know what most can and can't do?
Here, read up:


There is no way to change your circadian type since it is genetically determined, though there is some natural change that occurs during your lifespan. For example, our circadian sleep phase tends to shift later during adolescence (more owls) and advances earlier as we age (more like the lark).

In other words, people can no more change from day to night or vice versa than they can change their skin color.
 

chillinn

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This is a straw man argument. We are not discussing "circadian types." You seem to be obsessed with justifying your lifestyle, but it simply is not the topic. No one cares. Do what you want. Feel good about yourself. But the topic here is not you, nor your's nor anyone else's "circadian types," but instead:
seeking to create a circadian lighting solution.

Again, using windows and rising and retiring with the sun is, in fact, a circadian lighting solution, probably the simplest and least expensive one possible. Unless you have a problem with the truth of this and can argue rationally without moving the focus to you, personally, please knock it off. Please. You're upsetting KITROBASKIN and Olumin, and I'm getting blamed for what you're doing, and I gotta tell you, it sucks. So for the love of all that is holy, click on my username, and select the ignore button. If I had 10 bucks, I'd pay you to do it.
 

jtr1962

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This is a straw man argument. We are not discussing "circadian types." You seem to be obsessed with justifying your lifestyle, but it simply is not the topic. No one cares. Do what you want. Feel good about yourself. But the topic here is not you, nor your's nor anyone else's "circadian types," but instead:
Again, using windows and rising and retiring with the sun is, in fact, a circadian lighting solution, probably the simplest and least expensive one possible. Unless you have a problem with the truth of this and can argue rationally without moving the focus to you, personally, please knock it off. Please. You're upsetting KITROBASKIN and Olumin, and I'm getting blamed for what you're doing, and I gotta tell you, it sucks. So for the love of all that is holy, click on my username, and select the ignore button. If I had 10 bucks, I'd pay you to do it.
Whatever the f*ck ever. I'm done with this thread. And I did in fact suggest a practical circadian lighting solution in post #11. That was totally on-topic. Post #8 was another excellent suggestion.

If the idea is to rise and retire with the sun as you suggested, you don't need a "lighting solution". It sounds to me anyway more like the OPs intent was to find a lighting solution which enables artificial lighting after the sun is down, but which has minimal effect on their circadian rhythm.
 

chillinn

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If the idea is to rise and retire with the sun as you suggested, you don't need a "lighting solution".

Natural lighting, also known as daylighting, is a technique that efficiently brings natural light into your home using exterior glazing (windows, skylights, etc.), thereby reducing artificial lighting requirements and saving energy. It may not be artificial, but it is a lighting solution nevertheless.

It sounds to me anyway more like the OPs intent was to find a lighting solution which enables artificial lighting after the sun is down, but which has minimal effect on their circadian rhythm.

Quite the opposite. Circadian lighting is lighting that is designed to have a biological impact on the circadian system. Circadian lighting sends signals to the "master clock" in our brain, telling our bodies when it is daytime and when it is night, and what functions to perform at various times of the day.
 
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