alpg88
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2005
- Messages
- 5,341
that is a good point, thanks.
i did checked datashets of red ,red orange, and amber, now
it sure is different from white blue green.
and graphs confirm you 2-3x estimate,
Flashing brake lights.
- Thread starter alpg88
- Start date
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that is a good point, thanks.
i did checked datashets of red ,red orange, and amber, now
it sure is different from white blue green.
and graphs confirm you 2-3x estimate,
Hamilton Felix
Enlightened
Not to distract from the interesting LED discussion, but addressing the original fairly general observation that newer cars appear to have brighter rear lights: Keep in mind that a car which has been out there for a few years often has dusty bulbs, old bulbs, dirty reflectors, dirt on the inside of the lenses, oxidation of electrical connectors, etc. Its tail and marker lights are not as bright as they were when the vehicle was new.
magno_grail
Newly Enlightened
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2015
- Messages
- 1
VEHICLE CODE
SECTION 25250-25282
(c) Any stoplamp or supplemental stoplamp required or permitted by
Section 24603 may be equipped so as to flash not more than four
times within the first four seconds after actuation by application of
the brakes.
It appears a flashing brake light is legal within the stated limits.
SECTION 25250-25282
(c) Any stoplamp or supplemental stoplamp required or permitted by
Section 24603 may be equipped so as to flash not more than four
times within the first four seconds after actuation by application of
the brakes.
It appears a flashing brake light is legal within the stated limits.
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Link to source?
magno_grail, please do not abuse the formatting capabilities of the software that runs this board to put giant boldface words in your post. It is the internet equivalent of shouting in everybody's ears, and it is rude.
It looks like you have copied a piece of text out of a section of California's state vehicle code. Taken out of context, it appears to support the notion that flashing brake lights are legal. In fact, this piece of code is legally void because Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 108 preempts it -- just as is any other state code regulating an aspect of vehicle safety design, configuration, or performance that is the subject of a Federal regulation, to whatever degree the state standard differs from the Federal standard. In this case, FMVSS 108 requires that stop lamps ("brake lights") be steady-burning. California can write whatever it wants; if it wants to say it's legal to have green left stop lights and purple right ones that flash back and forth when the driver's not applying the brakes and pulse bright/dim together when the driver is stepping on the brake, except on the last Sunday of each month in a non-leap year, they can write that -- it won't matter a bit, because the Federal standard still preempts.
Moreover, even if that weren't the case, elsewhere in California's vehicle code is an explicit requirement that stop lamps comply with FMVSS 108, and (again) FMVSS 108 does not permit flashing stop lamps.
In order to make a reliable pronouncement of what's legal and what isn't, it's really necessary to read and understand all of the regulatory text applying to whatever question is at hand. Cherry-picking a clause here and a sentence there usually won't get the job done.
It looks like you have copied a piece of text out of a section of California's state vehicle code. Taken out of context, it appears to support the notion that flashing brake lights are legal. In fact, this piece of code is legally void because Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 108 preempts it -- just as is any other state code regulating an aspect of vehicle safety design, configuration, or performance that is the subject of a Federal regulation, to whatever degree the state standard differs from the Federal standard. In this case, FMVSS 108 requires that stop lamps ("brake lights") be steady-burning. California can write whatever it wants; if it wants to say it's legal to have green left stop lights and purple right ones that flash back and forth when the driver's not applying the brakes and pulse bright/dim together when the driver is stepping on the brake, except on the last Sunday of each month in a non-leap year, they can write that -- it won't matter a bit, because the Federal standard still preempts.
Moreover, even if that weren't the case, elsewhere in California's vehicle code is an explicit requirement that stop lamps comply with FMVSS 108, and (again) FMVSS 108 does not permit flashing stop lamps.
In order to make a reliable pronouncement of what's legal and what isn't, it's really necessary to read and understand all of the regulatory text applying to whatever question is at hand. Cherry-picking a clause here and a sentence there usually won't get the job done.
Alaric Darconville
Flashlight Enthusiast
Welcome to the CandlePowerForums, magno_grail!
This is an example of what a former co-worker of mine, who is also a preacher, calls "prooftexting", wherein a small section of a book is taken out of context in order to attempt to prove something. While perhaps no real malice is intended by people who will go to the lawbooks to try to find a real answer, the danger is that they will often miss context (either deliberately or accidentally) and pass out very bad advice, which can get people ticketed or their cars towed, or both. Maybe you've already been "prooftexted to" on another forum, or whether you dug this up on your own, it's important to note that what the snipped of law you provided seems to say, and what it really says, are quite different.
If you're going to cite a state law, even part of one, you'd do well to cite the law properly, or at the very least say what state it's from. It wasn't difficult at all to find that it is California State Vehicle Code, but it's still better to cite it properly.
You should also take note that the partially quoted Vehicle Code Division 12, Chapter 2, Article 7, 25251.5. (a) code refers to Section 24603, which is in Article 3 of the aforementioned Division and Article. That's a large omission, because that section states, inter alia:
Another quote from paragraph (e)
But this is all academic, because FMVSS 108 is the governing law in California and in any other State of the Union. Their own law references FMVSS 108, but even without that explicit declaration, 49 CFR 571.108 is the higher authority.
In short: No, flashing stop lamps, including CHMSLs, are not legal.
This is an example of what a former co-worker of mine, who is also a preacher, calls "prooftexting", wherein a small section of a book is taken out of context in order to attempt to prove something. While perhaps no real malice is intended by people who will go to the lawbooks to try to find a real answer, the danger is that they will often miss context (either deliberately or accidentally) and pass out very bad advice, which can get people ticketed or their cars towed, or both. Maybe you've already been "prooftexted to" on another forum, or whether you dug this up on your own, it's important to note that what the snipped of law you provided seems to say, and what it really says, are quite different.
If you're going to cite a state law, even part of one, you'd do well to cite the law properly, or at the very least say what state it's from. It wasn't difficult at all to find that it is California State Vehicle Code, but it's still better to cite it properly.
You should also take note that the partially quoted Vehicle Code Division 12, Chapter 2, Article 7, 25251.5. (a) code refers to Section 24603, which is in Article 3 of the aforementioned Division and Article. That's a large omission, because that section states, inter alia:
Another quote from paragraph (e)
(Emphasis mine)A flashing/pulsing/throbbing/swirling/gyrating stop lamp might be plainly visible from such distances, but it more certainly is not going to be plainly *understandable*.
But this is all academic, because FMVSS 108 is the governing law in California and in any other State of the Union. Their own law references FMVSS 108, but even without that explicit declaration, 49 CFR 571.108 is the higher authority.
In short: No, flashing stop lamps, including CHMSLs, are not legal.
Given that these are illegal, I often wonder (out loud, while driving) why no one is punishing/fining all the car dealers who install CHMSL flashers as a "bonus safety feature".
markr6
Flashaholic
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2012
- Messages
- 9,258
I always assumed they were stock since they were on "normal" cars, not all pimped out with chrome shoved in every crack, black tinted windows and riding 2" off the ground. "Normal" as in a Mazda, Cadillac or Ford with a middle-age person driving to work at 7:40am.
Anyway, they sure throw me off sometimes. "Where are you turning...OH nevermind you're breaking!"
Anyway, they sure throw me off sometimes. "Where are you turning...OH nevermind you're breaking!"
Same reason why so many people get away with "HID kits", which in too many cases are installed by car dealers and other parties directly regulated by the Federal standards: there's money in it, and most law enforcement officers don't have the knowledge, time, or interest to pursue it, and even if they did, they can't cite under Federal laws, only State laws, and many State laws are so vaguely written that a court victory is hard to guarantee.
Much like the tree falling in the forest with no one there to hear it...
If a law exists, and no one chooses to enforce it, is it really a law?
I mean, yes, it was put in place via a legislature or some other legal means, so technically, of course, it is a law.
But a law doesn't really exist in a vacuum, there must be enforcement.
And if no one will enforce it, then we can scream from the rooftops all day long, "But that's illegal!!", and all we're doing is making sounds.
If a law exists, and no one chooses to enforce it, is it really a law?
I mean, yes, it was put in place via a legislature or some other legal means, so technically, of course, it is a law.
But a law doesn't really exist in a vacuum, there must be enforcement.
And if no one will enforce it, then we can scream from the rooftops all day long, "But that's illegal!!", and all we're doing is making sounds.
dc38
Flashlight Enthusiast
Alaric Darconville
Flashlight Enthusiast
I know of one case where someone has filed a formal complaint about a dealership that's been installing them, and charging people something like $125.00 a pop, with the NHTSA. Maybe more people, in more geographical areas throughout the U.S., should do the same.
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Alaric Darconville
Flashlight Enthusiast
You might find that on the "normal" cars with them that they all share a single distinguishing feature: The emblem of the dealership the people bought them from.
You might also find a small sticker near the CHMSL talking about how the car is "equipped with PulseProtects", but more often it'll just be that you'll find they all bought the car itself, and paid extra money to get them "upgraded", from one of the shadier dealerships in town.
Dave D
Flashlight Enthusiast
I have on my motorcycle a Denali CANsmart which has various functions that can be customised by the user, by simply connecting the CANsmart to a PC/Mac. The CANsmart connects into the wiring of the bike and accesses the standard canbus system to allow control of accessories via the bikes original controls.
Via the CANSmart I now have a louder horn, the bikes Canbus trips above 5 amps so the CANSmart feeds the horn direct, the additional full beam lights which are set up to function with the full beam headlight, an additional rear/brake light that if activated heavily above 50kph flashes three times and then shows a solid brake light, which is standard on bikes 6 months older than mine and a good safety feature and lastly I can control heated clothing via the heated grips, the heated clothing supply can be programmed to whatever percentage you want to correspond to the heated grip heat levels.
Via the CANSmart I now have a louder horn, the bikes Canbus trips above 5 amps so the CANSmart feeds the horn direct, the additional full beam lights which are set up to function with the full beam headlight, an additional rear/brake light that if activated heavily above 50kph flashes three times and then shows a solid brake light, which is standard on bikes 6 months older than mine and a good safety feature and lastly I can control heated clothing via the heated grips, the heated clothing supply can be programmed to whatever percentage you want to correspond to the heated grip heat levels.
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Alaric Darconville
Flashlight Enthusiast
There's a function called "Emergency Stop Signal", specified in UN R48. Under heavy braking exceeding the normal slowing force applied relative to the prevailing road conditions, it activates the stop lamps or rear turn signals at 3 to 5Hz (the regulation requires 4Hz ±1Hz, unless filament light sources, then 4Hz+0Hz/-1Hz, or 3 to 4Hz). It is only activated when the vehicle speed is above 50km/h. In ECE member nations and Australia, there are legitimate regulations for this and legitimate equipment, as designed and installed by the vehicle manufacturer, performing it. In the USA, such functions might be provided by aftermarket toys that may not apply the same speed and deceleration logic. For example, *always* flashing the stop lamp a few times before staying on solid.
Ok, so that's pretty neat. No qualms with that.
Dave D
Flashlight Enthusiast
The brake light flashes 4 times and then displays a solid light while the brakes are applied, apparently they are California legal.
You must have a German bike that allows you to code all these options, with brake modulation, etc.
Alaric Darconville
Flashlight Enthusiast
Not California legal because they are not Federally legal. The CHMSL must be steady burning on application of the service brake. Not pulsing. Not flashing. Not strobing. Steady burning.
This sounds like one of those Safe-T-Stop/PulseProtects devices that claims to be legal but instead renders the CHSML inoperative. Yes, I know the apposite California code but installing the device defeats the original and required design of the CHMSL according to FMVSS 108.
(purely anecdotally) I have heen seeing more and more dimly lit and automatically triple-flashing brakelights on the road. I'm assuming there are bulbs that have this "feature" built in. I could see the utility of if were it the centerlamp and only indicating a hard deceleration, but when its every single time a brake pedal is applied, it becomes annoying and borderline confusing.
Those are the stupid ebay/amazon bulbs, they annoying but moreover they are dangerous. Not only they dont have the right beam pattern, but they also dont have the correct low/high contrast ratio.
Factory systems in BMWs that are design to "flash" are designed properly, I believe they are on by default in Germany, but can be enabled in other countries via software. They only flash when braking hard to warn other drivers, otherwise its regular brake light.
