Firemedic262
Newly Enlightened
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 1/7/08 (Info Added)
And the great work cont. :thumbsup:
And the great work cont. :thumbsup:
Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 8/27/2010 (Newer Info Added)
- Thread starter LuxLuthor
- Start date
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lctorana
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 1/7/08 (Info Added)
Understood, Lux; it makes more sense to settle doen to do a decent test session in one hit.
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 1/7/08 (Info Added)
OK, got first round of new bulbs tested last night...but I like to repeat another round with second bulb on a separate night to make sure that my test bed setup is being reproduced the same way, so I take it all down and setup fresh each time...which I believe helps eliminate any human testing method errors. I even check the battery level of the Light Meter each time.
I will be posting results of these bulbs I got from pertinax, lctorana, & Litho123:
Osram 64610 12V
Energizer HPR71 6V 10W (made in Germany)
WA 1331 - Frosted
WA 1111 - Frosted
Carley 809
Carley 1057
OK, got first round of new bulbs tested last night...but I like to repeat another round with second bulb on a separate night to make sure that my test bed setup is being reproduced the same way, so I take it all down and setup fresh each time...which I believe helps eliminate any human testing method errors. I even check the battery level of the Light Meter each time.
I will be posting results of these bulbs I got from pertinax, lctorana, & Litho123:
Osram 64610 12V
Energizer HPR71 6V 10W (made in Germany)
WA 1331 - Frosted
WA 1111 - Frosted
Carley 809
Carley 1057
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 1/7/08 (Info Added)
I have received a number of questions on the still listed Lumens on my spreadsheets, which are mostly not accurate. Here is a reply to a recent PM about the 64625 bulb for my advice on Lumens, and which will be added to spreadsheets on post #1 as a new column calculation:
I have received a number of questions on the still listed Lumens on my spreadsheets, which are mostly not accurate. Here is a reply to a recent PM about the 64625 bulb for my advice on Lumens, and which will be added to spreadsheets on post #1 as a new column calculation:
[LuxLuthor said:
Raoul_Duke
Enlightened
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 1/7/08 (Info Added)
So going off that the Ozram 458 crunches out to
1800 x 157 / X x 723
8289 lumens (bulb lumens (65%) ~ 5388)
And the osram 623 =
2800 x 303 = X x 713
6589 lumens ( bulb lumens (65%) ~ 4282 )
So going off that the Ozram 458 crunches out to
1800 x 157 / X x 723
8289 lumens (bulb lumens (65%) ~ 5388)
And the osram 623 =
2800 x 303 = X x 713
6589 lumens ( bulb lumens (65%) ~ 4282 )
Raoul_Duke
Enlightened
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 1/7/08 (Info Added)
ooops double post;.
Oh well may aswell use this chance to say another thanks for all this quality testing :twothumbs
ooops double post;.
Oh well may aswell use this chance to say another thanks for all this quality testing :twothumbs
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 1/7/08 (Info Added)
Except I would not use the values just before it flashed. The more you overdrive, the more inaccurate it all becomes.
I think I will try doing the 64655 & 64657 bulbs...not sure how my 30V 20A PS will hold up....but I have everything setup. What's the worst that can happen? Let's see...I do have my homeowner's insurance paid for the year....ok good to go!
Except I would not use the values just before it flashed. The more you overdrive, the more inaccurate it all becomes.
I think I will try doing the 64655 & 64657 bulbs...not sure how my 30V 20A PS will hold up....but I have everything setup. What's the worst that can happen? Let's see...I do have my homeowner's insurance paid for the year....ok good to go!
Raoul_Duke
Enlightened
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 1/7/08 (Info Added)
Excellent, I have wanting to see your results for the 64657 for a long time.
Looks promising on paper, and has a longer life than the 655, should be able to handle the overdrive better.
Any info on your real world eye comparison of these lamps.
I have all the bits and have been planning to stick 6 or 7 emoli up it for too long now, but no time to do it in.
Excellent, I have wanting to see your results for the 64657 for a long time.
Looks promising on paper, and has a longer life than the 655, should be able to handle the overdrive better.
Any info on your real world eye comparison of these lamps.
I have all the bits and have been planning to stick 6 or 7 emoli up it for too long now, but no time to do it in.
Fulgeo
Enlightened
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 1/7/08 (Info Added)
Wanted to open with saying thanks LuxLuthor for spending the time and effort to make these charts available. I find myself mulling over them alot. Fuel for creative dreams.
I was curious has anybody underdriven the Osram 62138 or 64625 at 11.1 volts? Is the beam too yellow? Anyone have a lumen estimate or reading? How does this effect bulb life? Is it detrimental? I have three Emoli and a 3D Mag waiting to go.
Anyone have a good source to purchase the 64447, bulb connection does not seem to carry them?
Thanks in advance. Perhaps I should change my handle to "Question Man"
Wanted to open with saying thanks LuxLuthor for spending the time and effort to make these charts available. I find myself mulling over them alot. Fuel for creative dreams.
I was curious has anybody underdriven the Osram 62138 or 64625 at 11.1 volts? Is the beam too yellow? Anyone have a lumen estimate or reading? How does this effect bulb life? Is it detrimental? I have three Emoli and a 3D Mag waiting to go.
Anyone have a good source to purchase the 64447, bulb connection does not seem to carry them?
Thanks in advance. Perhaps I should change my handle to "Question Man"
petrev
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 1/7/08 (Info Added)
Halostar 64447 IRC 65W 12V GY6,35
Svetila.com
Halostar 64447 IRC 65W 12V GY6,35
Svetila.com
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 1/7/08 (Info Added)
I finally added the bulbs I got from pertinax & lctorana:
Carley 809
Carley 1057
Osram 64657 (OMG this bulb got hot)
Osram 64655 (Even more OMG as this bulb got REALLY hot)
Also note that I added a new column (in yellow) with the Philips HPR71 & Osram 64610 that multiplies the ACTUAL measured percent increase Lux readings times the default manufacturer lumen rating, rather than using the inaccurate Hotrater spreadsheet. I will be adding this column to the other bulbs when I update the above 4.
I believe this is the most accurate, "real world" measured overdrive estimation using the default baseline Lumen reading we are given. The only baseline Lumen rating that is whacked is the Top Bulb Chinese Generic 64430 listed as 650 lumens at 6V, which should actually be a default rating of about 230 lumens at 6V.
I finally added the bulbs I got from pertinax & lctorana:
Osram 64610 12V
Philips HPR71 6V 10W (made in Germany)
Philips HPR71 6V 10W (made in Germany)
(Note: the frosted WA 1331 & 1111 that I got from Litho123 have the same Lux & Life as non-frosted)
I have the test results done for these bulbs, just need to input in spreadsheet. Note: t still have the two Carley to post from Litho123 , and my own 250W bulbs which pushed my 30V 20A power supply !!!
Carley 809
Carley 1057
Osram 64657 (OMG this bulb got hot)
Osram 64655 (Even more OMG as this bulb got REALLY hot)
Also note that I added a new column (in yellow) with the Philips HPR71 & Osram 64610 that multiplies the ACTUAL measured percent increase Lux readings times the default manufacturer lumen rating, rather than using the inaccurate Hotrater spreadsheet. I will be adding this column to the other bulbs when I update the above 4.
I believe this is the most accurate, "real world" measured overdrive estimation using the default baseline Lumen reading we are given. The only baseline Lumen rating that is whacked is the Top Bulb Chinese Generic 64430 listed as 650 lumens at 6V, which should actually be a default rating of about 230 lumens at 6V.
Last edited:
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 2/21/08 (Info Added)
Lux
I have two WA1160 bulbs that everyone uses in the MagChargers if you don't have those I can send.
Lips
Lux
I have two WA1160 bulbs that everyone uses in the MagChargers if you don't have those I can send.
Lips
Jay T
Enlightened
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2006
- Messages
- 372
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 1/7/08 (Info Added)
http://www.servicelighting.com/catalog_product.cfm?prod=QQ64447
http://www.servicelighting.com/catalog_product.cfm?prod=QQ64447
modamag
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 1/7/08 (Info Added)
Lux, this is AWSOME stuff. Although I'm an LED guy, but I surely can appreciate the amount of work and thought that goes in your testing process.
You're making it much harder for me to keep up with the incands crowds.
Great Job! :twothumbs:
Lux, this is AWSOME stuff. Although I'm an LED guy, but I surely can appreciate the amount of work and thought that goes in your testing process.
You're making it much harder for me to keep up with the incands crowds.
Great Job! :twothumbs:
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 2/21/08 (Info Added)
Lips, that would be cool. I don't have those bulbs. PM sent with my address.
Modamag, thank you sir! Your work is legendary.
Lips, that would be cool. I don't have those bulbs. PM sent with my address.
Modamag, thank you sir! Your work is legendary.
lctorana
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 2/21/08 (Info Added)
Lux,
Given a linear relationship between lux and lumens...
May I draw any conclusions from the variance of the Lux : Lumens ratio from bulb to bulb at default voltage?
If I can, then that would seem to indicate that some bulbs are wildly optimistic in their claimed lumens, whilst others are actually rather conservative...
Or is there another factor at work?
Lux,
Given a linear relationship between lux and lumens...
May I draw any conclusions from the variance of the Lux : Lumens ratio from bulb to bulb at default voltage?
If I can, then that would seem to indicate that some bulbs are wildly optimistic in their claimed lumens, whilst others are actually rather conservative...
Or is there another factor at work?
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 2/21/08 (Info Added)
Given the same & constant surface area for the bulb filament, the lux and lumens should have the same linear relationship. Otherwise it is possible for this line to have a different slope depending on surface area, the shape of the filament (blocking/diffracting the light), etc. While in some models it is possible to assume that all bulbs have the same filament sizes (due to how the light meter may work - see how most people working with LED flashlights assume it is a point source, which can be good in some general cases) I'm not sure how LuxLuthor's setup and the bulbs under test fare in this regard.
Most filaments are produced via powdered metallurgy, which results in a relatively high surface area to volume ratio. LuxLuthor has commented that over time the output of a bulb goes down. One possible explanation for this behavior is that over time at high temperatures the tungsten will go through some annealing processes (or perhaps also some of the halogen cycle) and reform into a lower energy shape - reducing surface area and thus lumens output.
It would be interesting to have detailed photos/models of these bulb filaments, but that's probably too much to ask out of LuxLuther who has done so much for us already. If we want to produce a 'complete' simulation/estimate for bulb outputs it will be a useful piece of data, but our estimates are often good enough and not too critical of +/- 100 lumens (or 10%).
Given the same & constant surface area for the bulb filament, the lux and lumens should have the same linear relationship. Otherwise it is possible for this line to have a different slope depending on surface area, the shape of the filament (blocking/diffracting the light), etc. While in some models it is possible to assume that all bulbs have the same filament sizes (due to how the light meter may work - see how most people working with LED flashlights assume it is a point source, which can be good in some general cases) I'm not sure how LuxLuthor's setup and the bulbs under test fare in this regard.
Most filaments are produced via powdered metallurgy, which results in a relatively high surface area to volume ratio. LuxLuthor has commented that over time the output of a bulb goes down. One possible explanation for this behavior is that over time at high temperatures the tungsten will go through some annealing processes (or perhaps also some of the halogen cycle) and reform into a lower energy shape - reducing surface area and thus lumens output.
It would be interesting to have detailed photos/models of these bulb filaments, but that's probably too much to ask out of LuxLuther who has done so much for us already. If we want to produce a 'complete' simulation/estimate for bulb outputs it will be a useful piece of data, but our estimates are often good enough and not too critical of +/- 100 lumens (or 10%).
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 2/21/08 (Info Added)
I just finished adding the yellow column to every bulb listed in first post--had to add it in each spreadsheet manually, and fix up formatting and colors. Man, that was a lot of work. Still didn't add the last few tested bulbs yet.
I double checked on every bulb, so if you are not seeing the new yellow column with red type either on page one, or when clicking on larger images, hit your browser refresh.
I changed the default TopBulb 64430 Chinese clone default to 230L, instead of their 6v=650 lumens listed on their website here, because it is obviously a bogus value. I also extended its life up to 4,000 hrs from their spec of 2,000 for the same reason. These changes are based on reasonable comparison of my Lux readings with other brands, and you will see them in red text.
I additionally extrapolated the default 6v lumens for AW's Chinese generic that he sells ("6V 30W 2000Hr Chinese Generic"), again based upon Lux comparisons. This allows us to use the new yellow Lumen columns on all bulbs, based on measured Lux.
I believe this new yellow column is the most accurate assessment of Lumens, but it does assume the default lumen spec value is accurate...since the percent increase in measured Lux is multiplied times that value. Only other option is to start using standard of Lux measurements from my tables.
Regarding the decreasing Lux measurement as an overdriven bulb ages, it is variable with the bulb model, and degree of overdrive beyond default. I almost think it is better to use the Ostrich "Head in the Sand" strategy on the fading output with degree of overdrive and life issue. LOL!
I just finished adding the yellow column to every bulb listed in first post--had to add it in each spreadsheet manually, and fix up formatting and colors. Man, that was a lot of work. Still didn't add the last few tested bulbs yet.
I double checked on every bulb, so if you are not seeing the new yellow column with red type either on page one, or when clicking on larger images, hit your browser refresh.
I changed the default TopBulb 64430 Chinese clone default to 230L, instead of their 6v=650 lumens listed on their website here, because it is obviously a bogus value. I also extended its life up to 4,000 hrs from their spec of 2,000 for the same reason. These changes are based on reasonable comparison of my Lux readings with other brands, and you will see them in red text.
I additionally extrapolated the default 6v lumens for AW's Chinese generic that he sells ("6V 30W 2000Hr Chinese Generic"), again based upon Lux comparisons. This allows us to use the new yellow Lumen columns on all bulbs, based on measured Lux.
I believe this new yellow column is the most accurate assessment of Lumens, but it does assume the default lumen spec value is accurate...since the percent increase in measured Lux is multiplied times that value. Only other option is to start using standard of Lux measurements from my tables.
Regarding the decreasing Lux measurement as an overdriven bulb ages, it is variable with the bulb model, and degree of overdrive beyond default. I almost think it is better to use the Ostrich "Head in the Sand" strategy on the fading output with degree of overdrive and life issue. LOL!
DM51
Flashaholic
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 2/21/08 (Info Added)
Lux, I've just had a look at a couple of those tables. I didn't think there was much room for improvement over what was there before, but you have managed it.
These tables are now absolutely superb - clear, easy to access information which we have never had before - we were floundering around 'in the dark', mostly just guessing at what the figures were. This is definitive, unarguable data - invaluable.
Every CPFer should be grateful to you for all the amazing work you have put into this project. This is a fantastic resource to have.
I take my hat off to you! Bravo!
Lux, I've just had a look at a couple of those tables. I didn't think there was much room for improvement over what was there before, but you have managed it.
These tables are now absolutely superb - clear, easy to access information which we have never had before - we were floundering around 'in the dark', mostly just guessing at what the figures were. This is definitive, unarguable data - invaluable.
Every CPFer should be grateful to you for all the amazing work you have put into this project. This is a fantastic resource to have.
I take my hat off to you! Bravo!
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 2/21/08 (Info Added)
Any chance that these tables can be available in an excel format? I really would love to combine these into a table that is based either on lux or voltage or some lux per watt ratio vs. based on individual bulbs...
This is just awesome work Lux, a huge resource for the community!
Any chance that these tables can be available in an excel format? I really would love to combine these into a table that is based either on lux or voltage or some lux per watt ratio vs. based on individual bulbs...
This is just awesome work Lux, a huge resource for the community!
