Ecosmart 60w A19

[Yoda4561]

Was out at home depot today grabbing some paint rollers, etc and wandered past the light bulb isle. I had a CFL that was on its last legs in my computer room and decided what the heck let's give it a try. The light is great, instant on, 3000k color temp, etc. I don't have a dimmer in here so I can't test that right now. One thing that does worry me is how hot the heatsink actually gets, my IR thermometer is reading 198F after it's been on a couple hours, seems a bit high for long term durability. (edit: that's in one of those floor torch lamps with an open top too, it's supposed to be rated for fully enclosed fixtures, but at those temps in an open one I'd hesitate to try.) I'm wondering if I shouldn't have gotten the remote phospor philips bulb for the same price, but there was only 1w difference in the paper specs so I'm not sure if that would have made more than a couple degrees difference.

At the price these things go for I'd recommend keeping your receipts around, maybe the boxes too in case it goes :barf:

I'm eagerly awaiting the next 3 years, there should be some big jumps in efficiency and lower costs at the same time since driver and heatsink requirements should be less expensive for manufacturers. The light quality is already fantastic though, much better than any cfl I've used.

 

[blasterman]

Light quality is getting pretty decent now that most of the earlier generation cold-white based bulbs with dismal CRI have pretty much gone. Because LED's have smoother spectral spikes than CFL (or many fluorescents) even the cheaper retrofits are very easy on the eyes.


It's those blazing hot heat-sinks that I've run across just like your tests that give me reservations. If the external surface of the heat-sink is 198F, then it would be logical to assume that on-die temps are higher. This puts the LED in a not so flattering performance curve over a year or two, and *should* cause a color shift.

 

[Yoda4561]

You bet, and that reason is going to keep me from buying any more led replacement lamps until they can cut the wattage in half. I know they CAN, it's just a matter of when they get to market. Cree had a blurb about the difference between high and low quality led retrofit stuff a while back, and one of the photos was of a baby holding a lit bulb by the heatsink. http://www.creeledrevolution.com/bl...ou-let-a-baby-hold-a-lit-cree-led-light-bulb/ So they make them, and I'm willing to bet that sucker is about twice as efficient as this ecosmart is, but you can't walk into a store and buy one, and I haven't found anyone selling them online either. Cree doesn't seem too interested in the retrofit omnidirectional market right now and I think that's unfortunate for the consumer space. I kinda wish this house had highhats so I could use their CR6 downlights (and no I'm not cutting them in and rewiring just to use leds in the house :D )

 

[Yoda4561]

Noticed the bulb has perceptible modulation today, hadn't noticed it until I grabbed a yardstick to measure something, and noticed the strobe effect moving the stick. It seems to be 60hz or so, but not as noticable as a fluorescent tube at that frequency, it's rather similar to a 60 hz LCD monitor. It's not bad really, but now that I know it's there :( Anyone know if the philips remote phospor bulbs do the same thing?

edit: to put it into perspective, most of the CFL's in the house don't show that "60hz" strobe effect, I'm honestly shocked I didn't notice it until just now.

 

[Canuke]

It's almost certainly 120hz (fullwave 60hz). They probably cheaped out a bit on the filter cap, resulting in some visible ripple. I doubt it's a straight unfiltered/rectified light by design; of all the LED med socket lights I have, only one is like that, and it dates back to 2008. I hope it's not that the cap on yours has failed :O

 

[UnknownVT]

It's almost certainly 120hz (fullwave 60hz). They probably cheaped out a bit on the filter cap, resulting in some visible ripple. I doubt it's a straight unfiltered/rectified light by design; of all the LED med socket lights I have, only one is like that, and it dates back to 2008. I hope it's not that the cap on yours has failed :O

That seems a shame.

I have been looking at LED bulbs on fleaBay -
and on some descriptions they actually do say:

(To ensure the using life of the bulb, we suggest that do not keep the bulb continue working for more than 16 hours)

This kind of worries me - since the whole point of being able to have low energy consumption (for me) is to use these bulbs where it could be left on unattended, and the ones I look at seemed to have have pretty serious looking heat sinks:

 

[AnAppleSnail]

Do you point the IR thermometer right at the heatsink, and isolate it from all the bulb's light? I can't really tell if mine is thrown off by shiny metals' temperature and emissivity.

Passive heatsinks aren't very effective, all things considered. I have a cool-to-the-touch 2 inch cube on top of my aquarium with about 24W of LED on it...and a quietly purring fan. A passive heatsink would be about the size of a decent keyboard, and quite a bit warmer. I think the 16 hour time is more of a "Please don't run this 24/7 in a closed closet in Arizona," rather than a real time limit.

 

[UnknownVT]

Passive heatsinks aren't very effective, all things considered.
....
A passive heatsink would be about the size of a decent keyboard, and quite a bit warmer. I think the 16 hour time is more of a "Please don't run this 24/7 in a closed closet in Arizona," rather than a real time limit.

Thanks for trying to put heat sinks into context.

However if an effective passive heat-sink really needs to be that size -
then the warning seems pretty sensible -
and the reason I mentioned the time warning,
is because it appears that the OP's LED bulb may show signs of degradation in the strobing.

 

[Steve K]

Passive heatsinks aren't very effective, all things considered. I have a cool-to-the-touch 2 inch cube on top of my aquarium with about 24W of LED on it...and a quietly purring fan. A passive heatsink would be about the size of a decent keyboard, and quite a bit warmer. I think the 16 hour time is more of a "Please don't run this 24/7 in a closed closet in Arizona," rather than a real time limit.

I won't argue with the claim that forced air cooling is a good deal more effective than passive given a fixed heatsink size. My impression is that the use of a fan reduces the light's reliability too much. What's the typical lifetime of the fans that you use?

A second concern might be the noise level of the fan. I suspect that it is probably not a concern in a lot of applications, but can also expect that there could also be plenty of applications where it would be offensive/annoying.

Given applications where a LED light is being retrofit into the space of a regular 100W light bulb, then the volume available for a heatsink is probably quite limited, and a fan would be very useful! ..... or just use the newer Cree LEDs that are happy to cook at 85C? I was looking at implementing a bathroom light with four 8W Achriche 2 LED modules and what sort of heatsinking would be needed to keep the junction temperature down to 55C or so. It really does take a lot of aluminum to do the job! I think the heatsinks would cost at least half as much as the LED modules themselves.

 

[BLH]

I tested two of the lower wattage output EcoSmart 9 watt, ECS 19 WW 120 bulbs from Home Depot.
Both where purchased a year ago.
One has been in service for twelve hours a day and the other is a unused spare.
Using a scope and a small photo voltaic cell.
Both showed a distinct 120 cycle pulse on the scope.
Very possible the 60 watt ones also have a 120 cycle pulse.
I did try one of the Philips EnduraLED 12.5W 12E26A60-1. It did not have any 120 cycle pulses on my scope.
I have a Evolux S LED bulb with a small fan in it.
They do get noisy after On time pases. Mine growls for a few minutes when turned On.
　

 

[Yoda4561]

The need for a 16 hour runtime suggests they're using older less efficient leds and overdriving them to get the output. That's bad in all kinds of ways, and really defeats the whole idea behind led replacement lighting. Thankfully things can only get better from here, the current crop of high quality LED bulbs like the philips edison style ones are only around 65-75 lumens/W right now, and that's basically 2 year old led tech. We all know they have the technology in production to get efficacy's greater than 100 lumens per watt, just a matter of when they put them on the market.

Thanks for the heads up on the scope traces BLH, I'll probably try exchanging this ecosmart for a philips remote phospor tomorrow and see if it resolves the issue since it sounds like they're doing a better job with their driver circuits.

 

[LEDninja]

the ones I look at seemed to have have pretty serious looking heat sinks:

The more technical people around here suggest 10 square inches per watt. That means an 8W (40W equivalent) needs 80 sq. in. and a 13.5W (60W eq.) needs 135 sq. in. The A19 bulbs heatsinks are nowhere near that.

From left old Philips 7W A19; Lighting Science 13.5W A19 (Same bulb different package the OP is discussing.); Lighting Science 8W G25.
The Lighting Science G25 has 2/3 the wattage but a much bigger heatsink. Might work better in 24/7 use. Won't fit all lamps though. Also mine has RFI that kills my TV reception (rabbit ears) when on.
BTW why are you looking at fleabay? With the speed LED bulbs is improving they are at least a generation behind same priced bulbs at Home Depot and Loews.

-----

the current crop of high quality LED bulbs like the philips edison style ones are only around 65-75 lumens/W right now, and that's basically 2 year old led tech. We all know they have the technology in production to get efficacy's greater than 100 lumens per watt, just a matter of when they put them on the market.

The Philips L-prize winner is out at 94 lm/w. MSRP $60. Current retail $50. Hopefully you will get a coupon with your future electric bill to purchase at $25.
Latest news:

I have found that the typical price is $49.95 for the LPrize Bulb. Amazon and Home Depot both list them.
My Power Company {CL&P} has a $10.00 incentive. I got one for $39.95 to evaluate it.
A friend indicated that RI and MA have a $24.95 incentive and they pay $25.00 for theirs.

Unfortunately the LED bulb manufacturers are trying to cut costs to compete with CFLs. A fellow member have found that the latest Philips Alien Head has gone from 18 LEDs (3*6) to 9 LEDs (3*3) for the 12W and 6 LEDs (3*2) for the 8W. Driving the LEDs twice as hard is not going to improve efficiency. These are down to $15 and $12 in NJ.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-bulbs-now-showing-manufacturing-cost-savings

 

[UnknownVT]

BTW why are you looking at fleabay? With the speed LED bulbs is improving they are at least a generation behind same priced bulbs at Home Depot and Loews.

I look everywhere - including fleaBay.

But that's wasn't the point I was trying to make -

- even a fleaBay advert warns about a time limit in using LED bulbs.
(but I do take the point about some being on older technology - however the available LED bulbs from B&M retail outlets and Home Depot ecoSmart brand may not all be of the latest technology either)

So from your own foregoing treatise on heat sinks and the inadequacies on a standard sized bulb -
are there any of today's LED bulbs that can be recommended to run 24/7 continuously without a break?
(remember there is always hearsay - like there are lots of people who still recommend and use 14500 Li-Ion rechargeable in 3V LED flashlights - because there was no instant failure - but don't see or talk about long term degradation.)

 

[blasterman]

I can't help UnknownVT on the issue of longevity with passive bulbs, but in regards to active cooling 50k hours isn't that big a deal with inexpensive, low RPM fans. It doesn't take much airflow to cool 10-20watts of thermal to 40-50C with a cue-ball sized sink. It's more the issue of clogging, etc. Relative of mine has designed passive radon removers and spec'd 6" fans with something like half a million hours MTF, and no, they don't use titanium bearings or such :-)

With passively cooled A style bulbs I'm really concerned about color shift over the long term unless it's a remote phosphor topology.

In terms of *actively* cooled LED solutions Kessil seems to have taken small size / active cooling to the engineering extreme with their reef / grow lights, although they are pricey. They have a 32watt model that's 3-7/8L x 2.5D inches, and recently introduced 90w model that's 3.8” x 4”. That's a pretty significant power density ratio if you ask me which shows what a bit of active cooling can do. I'm not advocating active cooling in the bulbs were discussing here, but for high powered, specialty, or industrial applications there's no need for massive sinks.

 

[UnknownVT]

With passively cooled A style bulbs I'm really concerned about color shift over the long term unless it's a remote phosphor topology.

In terms of *actively* cooled LED solutions Kessil seems to have taken small size / active cooling to the engineering extreme with their reef / grow lights, although they are pricey. They have a 32watt model that's 3-7/8L x 2.5D inches, and recently introduced 90w model that's 3.8” x 4”. That's a pretty significant power density ratio if you ask me which shows what a bit of active cooling can do. I'm not advocating active cooling in the bulbs were discussing here, but for high powered, specialty, or industrial applications there's no need for massive sinks.

Thank you so much for that input -

So passively cooled A type bulbs probably do have long term issues -
perhaps not instant death -
but degradation over long term.

Would I be correct in thinking LED A-type bulbs really need some form of active cooling -
at least for today's LED technology?

 

[AnAppleSnail]

To have output similar to other A-type bulbs? Unconditionally. The Philips L-Prize winner is quite dim compared side-by-side. In some situations that's okay, but almost-half-bright is very noticeable! Here's the math:

Newest X-style Cree is about 100 lumens per watt when cold. We'll want 1000+ lumens, so we drive it at 10W. Let's assume an 85% efficient driver, so we consume 11.5W and create 9.5W of heat. Dissipating that by convection takes a lot of surface area. Dissipating that heat inside a closed space is almost impossible without a fan, and difficult with one. The A-style package is too confined a space, and usually poorly oriented to make best use of an LED light source.

The passively-cooled LED fixtures I've produced are large. For example, light aluminum channel over the kitchen sink behind a valence. 12W of LED makes it perceptibly warm to the touch, but it can't really heat up six feet of aluminum stock. Trying to run 12W of LED in a smaller volume requires active air circulation or higher temperatures. And higher temperatures hurt efficiency and life. Cree's studies of LED performance (Not remote phosphor applications) showed that optic dome temperature is the major variable in determining output decay over time at rated currents. Color shift happens with high current and high heat, and is another undesirable sacrifice to the century-old A-style bulb format.

Advance! Upgrade! Get pretty lights, not stupid balls of heat (LED, CFL, or incandescent).

 

[UnknownVT]

To have output similar to other A-type bulbs? Unconditionally.
...
The A-style package is too confined a space, and usually poorly oriented to make best use of an LED light source.

Thank you very much for that clear explanation.

So Type-A is not really a good configuration for LED lighting - for similar output levels to existing light bulbs.

Pity, since that is just what the consumer is looking for genuine LED replacement (type-A) bulbs.

The current consumer offerings from what I am now reading
are simply not realistic -
1) they don't seem any more efficient if at all than CFLs
2) there may be longevity problems - which would negate any advertized "longer life".

So I'll probably stop looking at fleaBay
and anywhere else for that matter -
for any LED type-A bulb replacements -
unless there is some major revolutionary breakthrough
(which I very much doubt for any near future).

LEDs are probably
- eventually -
the way to go -
BUT not as type-A bulb replacements -
then we have to think about re-fitting our houses to suit any eventual better LED lighting.

Seems like CFLs will continue to be the energy efficient lighting for now -
at least for me.

 

[fnj]

In regards to the bulb that advises not to run for over 16 hours at a time, either the bulb is utter garbage or the guys labeling it are complete morons. Most likely the former, and the label is just a futile attempt to stave off people noticing that the damn thing doesn't last. The reason I say this is obvious. That bulb will be up to full temperature within an hour. If it is slowly going up in smoke in the 16th hour, it is also slowly going up in smoke within the first couple of hours, every time you use it. No matter whether you leave it on a couple of hours at a time, or 24x7, it is equally going to be a waste of money if the design is that lousy. As an aside, those bulbs are stupid in normal upright fixtures. They are throwing away all the light straight upwards where no one is using it.

It is obvious to me that the Philips remote phosphor bulbs are light years ahead of the others. I don't knock people for trying different options if that is their bag, but I knock the lower tier manufacturers for trying to foist garbage on the consumer.

 

[UnknownVT]

In regards to the bulb that advises not to run for over 16 hours at a time, either the bulb is utter garbage or the guys labeling it are complete morons. Most likely the former, and the label is just a futile attempt to stave off people noticing that the damn thing doesn't last. The reason I say this is obvious. That bulb will be up to full temperature within an hour. If it is slowly going up in smoke in the 16th hour, it is also slowly going up in smoke within the first couple of hours, every time you use it. No matter whether you leave it on a couple of hours at a time, or 24x7, it is equally going to be a waste of money if the design is that lousy. As an aside, those bulbs are stupid in normal upright fixtures. They are throwing away all the light straight upwards where no one is using it.

It is obvious to me that the Philips remote phosphor bulbs are light years ahead of the others. I don't knock people for trying different options if that is their bag, but I knock the lower tier manufacturers for trying to foist garbage on the consumer.

This is the whole point - there are obviously "rubbish" out there - fleaBay would be the more likely place to find them.

But from the other forgoing posts in this thread it would seem that type-A bulbs the obvious replacements - are just not suited.

Just because the bulb may not suffer sudden death - does not mean there are no long term issues - like changing tint/color - I am not too sure how many would accept a nicely tinted bulb to find that after a few months turning a shade of violet - this negates the claim of longevity, and directly affects the economics of using LED especially if they are (currently) close to, or no more efficient than CFL.

The Philips prize-winner type of remote phosphorous bulbs - is evidence there is a heat problem and changing tint/color over the long term.

So although I agree that the warning may seem nonsensical - it merely points out that LED type-A replacement bulb may not last the way we expect them to.

 

[fnj]

Definitely LED A-type bulb replacements are an immense challenge and are fighting the laws of heat exchange.

Re: the remote phosphor Philips - it doesn't feel that hot to the touch. I mean, nobody could hold on to one or anything! But it's not in the LED junction danger zone. I have a bunch of the original 60 watt model. Maybe I will leave one on 24x7 and report whether any visual degradation other than gradual dimming occurs. The rating isn't even quite 3 years' worth of hours, right?