Flashlight Gun Combo

[ElliDee]

I have not yet, but plan to very soon, practiced shooting at night/low light conditions. Well I lied sometimes I will shoot at sundown but never have I practiced with a light in my weak hand. But I do have a 350 lumen tactical light to blind any offender. Maybe some people have mounted lights on their self defense firearms but I do not own a railed handgun yet. But until I do my GSX350 will compliment my 45acp 1911A1 government.

I'm interested in how difficult it will be to put multiple rounds on target with the recoil moving my light hand. Does your night stand HD light differ from your EDC?

 

[Pipswich]

Google Harries hold and practice. I like it because if a good shooter aims at your light... they will miss you!

 

[dc38]

Google Harries hold and practice. I like it because if a good shooter aims at your light... they will miss you!

Only if you're in a Weaver-ish stance, and if the person has perfect aim...if they aim slightly to the center/ left (heart?) they might still graze your shooting arm...In any case, always try to run and duck for cover if possible.

As far as the flashlight goes, anything compact with an intense hotspot would fit the bill. Lighter = less fatigue, higher intensity hotspot means all the target may see is a wall of light. If you've ever played battlefield, think tactical flashlight pre-patch. It's similar to a laser getting in your eye, all you see is a flood of light.

 

[Pipswich]

Chuckle, I completely agree with your observation. And, frankly, if they shoot well enough to hit the light or that arm, I will probably be grateful for the warning shot to the arm (nonlethal miss) and the warning to run like h'''.

 

[Half-Bear]

 

[ElliDee]

I'm not too worried about hanging my left arm way out to keep me away from the light. 99% reaction to a hot spot of 350 lumens to the face is to look away or put the hands over the light.

Half Bear, ^^^^^^^^ that is an interesting technique and I will try that next range session. I have never seen a light hold like that. I am eager to try it.

But that hold is if my weapon is drawn and at the ready. I will try that hold for ready position but what if I am just deploying my light first to identify the situation. In that situation I would probably do what I plan to practice an is the standard thumb on tail cap clicky and strong hand over my weak wrist. Should be some fun training.

 

[Half-Bear]

I'm not too worried about hanging my left arm way out to keep me away from the light. 99% reaction to a hot spot of 350 lumens to the face is to look away or put the hands over the light.

Half Bear, ^^^^^^^^ that is an interesting technique and I will try that next range session. I have never seen a light hold like that. I am eager to try it.

But that hold is if my weapon is drawn and at the ready. I will try that hold for ready position but what if I am just deploying my light first to identify the situation. In that situation I would probably do what I plan to practice an is the standard thumb on tail cap clicky and strong hand over my weak wrist. Should be some fun training.

It is a grip that I am experimenting with that is sort of a modified/reverse Surefire/ cigarette hold. It works well with smaller diameter flashlights as it's easier to fully secure the light like the third picture. Balancing and mobility is optimal on single cell lights, but 2x cell lights can work as well. One issue is that your index finger is tight against the gun. Without a barrier (like gloves), the recoil might make the grip uncomfortable on the user's index finger.

 

[rje58]

dc38, yours is the best advice! I totally understand that not all fights (attacks) can be avoided, and that we must try to be prepared in case they come - but the only fight that you can be SURE not to lose is the one you avoid and never get into!

In any case, always try to run and duck for cover if possible.

 

[dss_777]

It is a grip that I am experimenting with that is sort of a modified/reverse Surefire/ cigarette hold. It works well with smaller diameter flashlights as it's easier to fully secure the light like the third picture. Balancing and mobility is optimal on single cell lights, but 2x cell lights can work as well. One issue is that your index finger is tight against the gun. Without a barrier (like gloves), the recoil might make the grip uncomfortable on the user's index finger.

That's disturbing. Seems dangerous and overly complicated to require two hands to activate a light. Especially so when the one doing the activation is also the one you're expecting use to safely operate a pistol.

 

[Half-Bear]

That's disturbing. Seems dangerous and overly complicated to require two hands to activate a light. Especially so when the one doing the activation is also the one you're expecting use to safely operate a pistol.

Training dictates success. Pictures on the internet do not determine which type of hold is suitable enough for you, without actually training.

As for two handed manipulation, good luck trying to click a tailcap with your support hand using the Surefire/Chapman/Ayoob holds without modifying your grip.

Harries and FBI holds do not work well if the shooter shoots isosceles, and forces them to operate the handgun with one hand. Again, practicing in these conditions dictates success.

The hold shown in the pictures is another method and like other schools of thought, is another tool in the toolbox. YMMV.

 

[dss_777]

Sure, training matters. Alot. In the interest of friendly discussion, here's my brain dump:

Why is it, do you think, that no one teaches your grip? There's no doubt you can train yourself to be good at this technique, but that doesn't eliminate several unavoidable problems inherent in this technique. I just think it's unecessarily complex, limited in utility, potentially unsafe, and a waste of very limited training time. YMMV.

One is that your two hands have to be in contact, and in motion relative to each other, to activate the light. It's impossible to turn the light on/off if you have to separate the hands, like when opening a door, if you get bumped or jarred, or change magazines. Any shift in grip or position of either hand removes your ability to control that light until you reacquire that precise grip.

And, in sticking your thumb out there to push on the button, you potentially weaken your strong hand grip on the weapon. If your chosen method of turning the light on/off is to pull the weak hand back against the thumb, then that hand-dance is likely to disrupt a solid two-handed hold as well, isosceles, weaver, or whatever.

While pushing with one hand and also pulling with the other isn't by itself a difficult task, it's really, really important that you don't get those two things mixed up when one of those motions presses a trigger.

FWIW, all the holds you list use a single hand (the off hand) to activate the light. And it shouldn't surprise you that it's the same hand holding the light. Chapman/Ayoob are for side-mount switched lights, like the Kel-tec/maglights. The Surefire ("cigar") hold is for a tail-switch light with a combat ring. All are designed to allow the user to activate the light without shifting your grip. Harries has been used for both.

Yours requires two hands to work, either pushing forward with the strong hand thumb, or pulling back on the light with the weak hand. Your technique only works if you maintain that specific grip. If you have to separate your hands and need to use the light, you now have to readjust your grip to turn it on/off. By necessity, you have to shift your grip to weak hand thumb on the switch, and use one of the above shooting positions, or a neck hold or mod-FBI, or something. Why bother?

One other thought- all the traditional techniques allow the user to acquire their light ready to activate. Holster, holder, or ring, grab it and it's ready to use by itself, or brought together with a weapon. To search without pointing your gun at everything is really the only reason NOT to have a WML. I have no idea how you could carry that light to get it into your hand in that position without a bit too much spinning, turning, flipping or whatever for me. Plus, you risk dropping that little light when flipping it around to turn it on one-handed.

Does anyone teach this method?

 

[Half-Bear]

Sure, training matters. Alot. In the interest of friendly discussion, here's my brain dump:

Why is it, do you think, that no one teaches your grip? There's no doubt you can train yourself to be good at this technique, but that doesn't eliminate several unavoidable problems inherent in this technique. I just think it's unecessarily complex, limited in utility, potentially unsafe, and a waste of very limited training time. YMMV.

One is that your two hands have to be in contact, and in motion relative to each other, to activate the light. It's impossible to turn the light on/off if you have to separate the hands, like when opening a door, if you get bumped or jarred, or change magazines. Any shift in grip or position of either hand removes your ability to control that light until you reacquire that precise grip.

And, in sticking your thumb out there to push on the button, you potentially weaken your strong hand grip on the weapon. If your chosen method of turning the light on/off is to pull the weak hand back against the thumb, then that hand-dance is likely to disrupt a solid two-handed hold as well, isosceles, weaver, or whatever.

While pushing with one hand and also pulling with the other isn't by itself a difficult task, it's really, really important that you don't get those two things mixed up when one of those motions presses a trigger.

FWIW, all the holds you list use a single hand (the off hand) to activate the light. And it shouldn't surprise you that it's the same hand holding the light. Chapman/Ayoob are for side-mount switched lights, like the Kel-tec/maglights. The Surefire ("cigar") hold is for a tail-switch light with a combat ring. All are designed to allow the user to activate the light without shifting your grip. Harries has been used for both.

Yours requires two hands to work, either pushing forward with the strong hand thumb, or pulling back on the light with the weak hand. Your technique only works if you maintain that specific grip. If you have to separate your hands and need to use the light, you now have to readjust your grip to turn it on/off. By necessity, you have to shift your grip to weak hand thumb on the switch, and use one of the above shooting positions, or a neck hold or mod-FBI, or something. Why bother?

One other thought- all the traditional techniques allow the user to acquire their light ready to activate. Holster, holder, or ring, grab it and it's ready to use by itself, or brought together with a weapon. To search without pointing your gun at everything is really the only reason NOT to have a WML. I have no idea how you could carry that light to get it into your hand in that position without a bit too much spinning, turning, flipping or whatever for me. Plus, you risk dropping that little light when flipping it around to turn it on one-handed.

Does anyone teach this method?

All the issues you have with the grip are also inherent issues with the Chapman and Ayoob holds. Majority of the tactical lights on the market that have side switches are only used for secondary modes switching when the light is already on or strobe, not for light activation (unless you are using an EDC light like the Olight batons or a Zebralight). That means, unless the light is already on, you would have to break your grip for off hand activation.

Cigarette Hold:

Chapman/Ayoob:

The issue with teaching flashlight holds in regards to handgun shooting deals with shooting fundamentals, and adjustment. The Chapman and Ayoob holds are secure holds that unfortunately work with side button lights. The FBI, Harries and other ice pick style hold cater to tail cap operated lights, but is less secure.

While it's easy to say, "why not adopt the harries/FBI hold when shooting in a low light scenario", depends on your mindset. A stable shooting platform is paramount, and while target (threat) identification is fine, accuracy is the potential second half of the equation that is just as important.

Surefire hold:

The modified hold bridges the gap between shooting from a secure hold, while addressing inherent light activation issues (tail cap) that stem from the Surefire, Chapman and Ayoob holds. The complexity of this hold is a non issue as you're simply cradling the light with your index finger. You can easily separate your support hand from the weapon and close the rest of your fingers on the light and use the light in a saber hold. The light would be click on before transition:

Modified hold transition:

This hold isn't the holy grail of flashlight holds, nor do I claim it to be. It is a concept, much like all the other holds, and can be another tool in your tool box if you so desire, hence YMMV.

As for muzzle awareness issue, again training, proficiency, and mindset. If you do not wish to have the muzzle pointed everywhere the light is, then maybe adopting a different hold is your preference. IMO, dedicated weapon lights have secured their place.

 

[dss_777]

Thanks for the pics. However, this pic demonstrates everything wrong with this technique:

If you have a light AND a gun out, it's a bad situation. Why would you ever hold one of your primary tools in a non-functional grip? Even for a second? No amount of training is going to allow you to switch that light on (or off) held like that. I don't want that in the middle of a bad situation.

All the real, validated techniques mentioned allow one hand activation of the light. Even the Rogers/Surefire hold works, but mainly because of the combat ring. It's easy enough to switch to thumb press because you maintain one-hand control of the light with the combat ring. You have to shift your grip a bit, but you don't have to loosen control of the light, flip it around, find the switch, and then activate.

Again, is there any professional trainer or LE agency that teaches your technique? Good on you for experimenting, but don't stop working through the problems.

 

[Half-Bear]

Thanks for the pics. However, this pic demonstrates everything wrong with this technique:



If you have a light AND a gun out, it's a bad situation. Why would you ever hold one of your primary tools in a non-functional grip? Even for a second? No amount of training is going to allow you to switch that light on (or off) held like that. I don't want that in the middle of a bad situation.

All the real, validated techniques mentioned allow one hand activation of the light. Even the Rogers/Surefire hold works, but mainly because of the combat ring. It's easy enough to switch to thumb press because you maintain one-hand control of the light with the combat ring. You have to shift your grip a bit, but you don't have to loosen control of the light, flip it around, find the switch, and then activate.

Again, is there any professional trainer or LE agency that teaches your technique? Good on you for experimenting, but don't stop working through the problems.

Your argument went from the hold being potentially dangerous and complicated, to the difficulty manipulation, to now addressing the awkwardness of using the light as a stand alone, when again, your fundamental issue(s) with the modified grip have been present in traditional holds.

The transition from a two hand Ayoob/Chapman hold to a single hand, is still an issue when using tailcap tactical lights.

Traditional Ayoob:

Jason Hanson using Traditional Ayoob hold using a tailcap light:

Jason Hanson using Surefire hold without a grip ring:

The pictures above plainly illustrate the difficulty in tailcap activation in traditional two-hand holds, which the modified hold can potentially solve. The issue of transition from the traditional hold is still present, but my hold was never meant to address this issue.

I do not know whether or not the modified grip is being taught in class, but as you can see, there are instructors teaching traditional holds using tailcap tactical lights in which the issue of activation (for me) was discovered.

The last series of pictures in my previous post was to address the "spinning, turning, flipping or whatever" complexity issue that is non existent as you are, again, simply cradling the light with your index finger.

So in essence, you don't have an issue with the modified hold in particular, you just have an issue with traditional Ayoob/Chapman holds. Got it.

 

[dss_777]

I didn't change anything in my argument, I just narrowed it down for the sake of discussion. I still maintain this:

"There's no doubt you can train yourself to be good at this technique, but that doesn't eliminate several unavoidable problems inherent in this technique. I just think it's unecessarily complex, limited in utility, potentially unsafe, and a waste of very limited training time."

(emphasis added)

The Ayoob/Chapman hold works fine for a side-switch light. That's how it was developed. I have no problem with that.

Your second pic above with Jason Hanson is just clown-shoes, and I guarantee you no one is "teaching" that. It's non-functional as-is.

Your third pic is a Rogers/Surefire hold, and allows off-hand thumb activation without excessive manipulation. A viable option.

Are you honestly arguing that your grip is without any of the problems I outlined above?

In reference to the picture I quoted in post #13 above, answer me this:

How do you carry it so you can draw that light in that hold?
How do you turn it on/off in that grip?
Do you think flipping the light end-for-end to get your thumb on the tail cap so you can turn it on/off one-handed is likely?
Or, vice-versa: what if you start out holding the light in a typical ice-pick grip? You don't see a problem having to flip it around to use that hold with your gun?

My basic issue is this: you can't make a lot of assumptions about what will happen in any situation where your gun and light are needed. Any techniques that require a lot of extra steps to respond to changing/evolving circumstances leaves more room for error.

If you could predict what was going to happen, then you should have not been there in the first place.

Regardless, I'm just glad you're shooting... :)

 

[dss_777]

And, FWIW, I've saw in one AAR that while Pat Rogers clearly advocates WMLs, he teaches a neck hold for hand-held lights. I thought that was interesting.

 

[PJD642]

Just my two cents, but one of the things I encountered when trying to get (mostly) minimally trained people to shoot with a flashlight was that they got overly concerned with having the light pointed directly at their target before they fired. Most of the techniques listed above come close, but will be pointed slightly up/down relative to the target depending on the person holding the light. The shooters I dealt with would spend valuable time lining up the light directly at the target instead of firing once they'd identified the threat.

I used to point my light at 'em and ask if they were hurt. They'd reply "No" in a puzzled tone, and I'd then ask why they were so concerned about getting their light directly on the target before they fired since the beam of light couldn't hurt anyone. Then we'd all do a couple drills where their light was on the floor aimed sideways at the range wall or directly at the ceiling, to reinforce the concept that the LIGHT doesn't need to be pointed directly at the target, only the gun.

Having said that, I can't imagine not having a weapon light mounted on my pistol nowadays. Your support hand stays free to open doors, manipulate objects, key up your radio, or whatever. The added weight on the front also helps control muzzle rise when firing. Further, the "sympathetic response" (where one hand clenches and the other unconsciously closes also even though not directed to) bothers me with some of the holds shown. It'd be too easy under stress to squeeze one hand to actuate the tail switch on a light and slightly depress the trigger finger of the pistol hand without meaning to do so. Yes, "finger off trigger until you intend to fire" and all, but under stress people get sloppy.

As for Pat Rogers advocating a neck hold, I think that's his variation of the "press your off hand fist firmly to your chest" when firing one handed technique. Provides good isometric tension, and keeps the light aligned to where your body is facing.

 

[BillSWPA]

Shooting with a light that isn't mounted on the gun is largely a one-handed shooting technique. Even if your weak hand is providing some support to the gun, too much pressure from the weak hand will really mess up your trigger squeeze. The key to the Rogers/Surefire/cigar hold, Harries hold, etc. is to apply only very light pressure to the gun/gun hand with the support hand. That very light pressure will result in a slight improvement in accuracy without creating unfamiliar grip pressure dynamics that will mess up your aim.

I prefer to use the light separately from the gun, and simply concentrate on one hand shooting. The above-mentioned neck hold works very well with a wide variety of lights, while the Rogers/Surefire hold is really tough to use without a light specifically designed for this hold. It illuminates not only the target, but also your sights, which may or may not be a good thing depending on the design of your sights. It also allows you to illuminate areas without pointing your gun at those areas. Lastly, transitioning to the traditional FBI hold with the hand well away from the body, or to moving around a corner with the light well away from your gun and head, is easy.

Inside a building, if you activate a modern high intensity light, you have illuminated the whole room, including yourself. However, when using a wall for cover/concealment, there is some advantage to having the light high when you are low, or having the light low when you are high. Force on force training exercises consistently show that participants who do this tend to get hit in the hands, while those who keep the light right in front of them tend to get hit in the head/body. This is where the Surefire Z series or other light with a "combat ring" is helpful. When going around a weak side corner, it is much easier to hold the light low when you are high using such a light. For this reason, the light in the lock box with my bedside pistol is a Surefire 6Z with Malkoff dropin, while my EDC light is the much smaller FourSevens Quark 123^2 Tactical.

Outside, I would absolutely use the FBI hold, with the light held well away from my body.

A bezel-down Kydex belt pouch like those made by Comp-Tac (my favorite) or Blade-Tech can be a big help in getting the light out and positioned in your hand quickly.

Gun mounted lights are a necessity with long guns. They are helpful, but not necessary, with pistols. If using a weapon mounted light, keep in mind that you are pointing a gun at anything you are illuminating, unless you are carefully using the edge of the spill to illuminate that area. Other than that issue, they are a big help, and allow use of a true two handed hold on your pistol. If you are using a light without a grip-mounted pressure switch (the grip mounted pressure switch is definitely preferred), try to use your support hand to work the light as much as possible so that you are not using your trigger finger to do things other than work the trigger. If using a pressure switch, be aware of the sympathetic response issue described above, and make sure you are not squeezing the wrong thing at the wrong time.

In terms of specific light recommendations, the two most popular lights among people I know who train this stuff regularly are the FourSevens Quark Tacticals set for strobe with the bezel tight and high with the bezel loose, and the Klarus XT series lights. For weapon mounted lights, Surefire is probably the gold standard, but they are tremendously expensive, to the point that I increasingly wonder if they are truly worth all the $. Streamlight makes some very good weapon mounted lights at much more reasonable prices. In particular, the Streamlight TLR-3 is one of the few for which finding holsters is easy.

Although the light is the first priority, make sure your pistol is equipped with tritium sights (Trijicon brand inserts are strongly recommended), a laser, or both. Surefire light/laser combinations with pressure switches have worked particularly well. One training group has had good results with the Viridian green laser/light combination.

 

[Jeff91]

A couple of things to remember when shooting a handgun in conjunction with a handheld light.

-Dealing with mag changes and malfunctions will be more complicated when you have your support side hand full of light. Train to do something with the light, drop it, stick it under your arm or between your legs.

-Shooting at night with a light can bring about some visibility issues. Even though modern ammo uses smokeless powder they will still be some smoke after your shots, more so in an enclosed space. Shining your light into that cloud can result in obscuring your target.

Best way to deal with any of these issues is to get time behind the gun and test out all the options.

 

[Lodogg2221]

What, nobody uses the old Harries technique?
Thats what I prefer....works with all my lights, and its easy as pie. Doesnt require me to have the gun up and ready if not necessary (and a lot of times its not), and it gives a more secure grip on the light than do any of the other styles.
Of course thats when Im carrying concealed, and a small pistol.
For a full size, I prefer my light on the gun.
I have other lights for searching, but when I need a light and a gun at the same time, I prefer them to be attached to one another.