Flashlight noob - TK12 or P-Rocket?

[A[L]C]

Hi all,

Which should I go for? The Fenix TK12 R5 or a MG P-Rocket, XP-G R5 cool white?

Its just for general use, nothing in particular.

Thanks

 

[shipwreck]

I looked at the TK11 and TK12 - I went with the Eagletac T20C2 Mk II. Might I suggest that you check that one out as well

 

[A[L]C]

thanks will take a look

 

[NonSenCe]

for first one, i would suggest tk12 over procket. not that i dont trust p-rocket in general (i have 6 mg lights from shiningbeam and only one failed and got replacement very quickly from him.) but i still feel that you could be better off with something from more "established" and bigger company.

althou.. i have to say i generally dont recommend noobs to buy anything that is using 18650 li-ions (hazards) or cr123s (expensive). i offer them to start with something more common like AA or AAA batterytypes.

 

[tandem]

Hey A[L]C, welcome to CPF!

I'm with NonSenCe above, being reluctant to recommend anything but an AA or AAA powered light to a newcomer unless we know more about the newcomer. If you already have a fleet of lights of various types and experience with rechargeable li-ion cells, that's another matter.

If this is a first "good" light, something for general purpose use, my gut says buying a bright light in a smaller form factor is usually the right way to go for most people. Something small enough you can clip it to a pocket and barely notice it being there, the so called Every Day Carry form factor (EDC). Such lights are incredibly useful.

Every single light mentioned by yourself and the posters above has its place. I probably would lean to a TK11 or TK12 or possibly the new TK15 when it ships, mostly because I am a fan of long flat regulated output. That said the T20C2 Mk II I almost bought recently (due to beam shape), but humming and hawing over that led me to go an entirely different direction.

Folks here just want to see people get hooked up with the right light so if you can give us more info on your situation - what other lights (types of lights more than brands) you may own or might want to own in the future - etc, it'll be easier to give you good advice.

 

[A[L]C]

Thanks for the responses. I've not had any decent torches before, just a led torch from maplins.

Not looking for anything too small really, I think the tk12 would be a good size.

The other reason im looking at those two is they are both available in the marketplace.

The TK12 + 2x 18650 + WF139 for £60
or the P Rocket + 1x 18650 for £31.50 (and Id need to buy a charger).

What would be comparable to the TK12 in brightness in an AA version?

Thanks a lot

 

[phantom23]

What would be comparable to the TK12 in brightness in an AA version?

Fenix LD40. And I'd choose P-Rocket over TK12. Fenix is more solid indeed but MG is cheaper, brighter and has simplier UI.

 

[A[L]C]

works out nearly the same price as amigafan is selling his for £60, so theres only about £10 in it.

Brighter though.... thats the reason amigafan is selling (he got a p-rocket), which is concerning.

Build quality is what I think is drawing me towards the tk. Ive got two young kids and no matter how careful I am at hiding it, they are bound to get their hands on it and drop it etc. So im looking for a flashlight which stands the best chance lol - especially when paying over £50 for a torch (which everyone away from these forums thinks Im mad for doing lol).

 

[tandem]

As far as cost, you might find an opportunity to spread the cost of a charger to other devices, particularly true for more common place NiMH rechargeable cells than li-ion 18650s. If you need / can use AA or AAA rechargeable cells for other purposes, you have a chance to save some money over time.

Brightness is hard to define. You'll read a lot about throw, hotspots, spill and flood around here. For a general purpose light you don't generally want the world's best thrower nor an all flood light but something in the middle. The TK11/12/15 I would consider in that realm as is the P Rocket, and so would be AA powered lights like the Quark AA2, Fenix LD20, LD25 or the 4-cell LD40. There are tons of different lights in single or double AA size format that would make ideal first lights. Here are a few comparison shots between some picked as examples of what you get as output for size and battery power rather than as specific recommendations. Try opening up two windows side by side to compare a couple at a time:

AA
1xAA Fenix LD10 R4
2xAA Fenix LD20
4xAA Fenix LD40

2xCR123 or 1x18650
Fenix TK11 (simpler UI than TK12)
Fenix TK12
EagleTac T20C2 Mark II (no tunnel shot to compare but you can choose the long hallway shot for all of the above for comparison)

Sadly the site I'm pointing you do doesn't have every light under the sun, but at least you can get a feeling for different levels of output.

Size: As for the TK11/12/15 or EagleTac or MG P Rocket and the like - they will all be a little bigger. Thicker around and longer. You may not find carrying one on your person nearly comfortable day in day out, but if you have no plans to do that, they by all means buy big. I always try to talk people into buying a smaller first light because I'm sold on having a light on me at all times. I'm a software developer who moonlights in other areas - I find my single AA light fits right in with my front cargo pocket in shorts, or in my dress slacks or suit jacket inside pocket. I would never carry my 18650 lights in a suit jacket! Others may.

UI: On user interfaces, some like simple, some don't mind complex. Like beam shape and size, these are very personal things. If you just want on/off simplicity, buy a light like that. If you don't mind various output levels, perhaps a strobe mode or two, then buy a light with those features.

Ive got two young kids and no matter how careful I am at hiding it, they are bound to get their hands on it and drop it etc.

Safety: One thing about 18650 (and other sizes) lithium ion cells - they are not just another type of relatively innocuous battery. Mistreated, they can get in a state where nasty things can happen including fire and explosions. You've got kids. Consider this, please. I've got 10 and 13 year old sons now and only fairly recently have I felt comfortable having li-ion rechargeable cells be in the house as I can trust them now. I want my kids to use flashlights and have access to them - so most of ours are AA or AAA NiMH powered.

If you do buy a li-ion powered light please be sure to visit the Battery subforum here, read and ask a few questions just so you know what you are getting into before you take that leap. Here's a recent thread where someone did just that.

 

[Squidboy]

Going from 'Maplins' I'd say your in the uk. So keep in mind that if you spend £60 in the marketplace and the purchase is shipped from outside uk then you can expect about £15 in duty and fees for the honor of getting your gear.

Keep that in mind against savings from buying outside uk, Customs and Excise dont get you every time but some folk are unlucky.

 

[A[L]C]

Wow thanks guys. Couldn't really ask for a better response! I like it here lol.

Are 18650's really that bad? I understand they can be unstable, but I was under the impression that was mainly around charging. Ie leaving them charging once fully charged. I also read that people keep them in the fridge. I assume this is to keep a constant low temperature.

Squidboy, thanks for the tip. Im currently looking at amigafans tk12 which is from the UK, but will keep it in mind.

 

[jp2515]

Wow thanks guys. Couldn't really ask for a better response! I like it here lol.

Are 18650's really that bad? I understand they can be unstable, but I was under the impression that was mainly around charging. Ie leaving them charging once fully charged. I also read that people keep them in the fridge. I assume this is to keep a constant low temperature.

Squidboy, thanks for the tip. Im currently looking at amigafans tk12 which is from the UK, but will keep it in mind.

The AW brand rechargeable li-ions are well regarded here on CPF. Check out the AW LiIon Battery Sales thread in the Marketplace (requires separate registration)

 

[RedForest UK]

works out nearly the same price as amigafan is selling his for £60, so theres only about £10 in it.

Brighter though.... thats the reason amigafan is selling (he got a p-rocket), which is concerning.

Build quality is what I think is drawing me towards the tk. Ive got two young kids and no matter how careful I am at hiding it, they are bound to get their hands on it and drop it etc. So im looking for a flashlight which stands the best chance lol - especially when paying over £50 for a torch (which everyone away from these forums thinks Im mad for doing lol).

Hi, I'd just going to cheekily point out that the price difference between amigafans tk12 and my P-Rocket was actually £32. Not the £10 you specified above. A decent charger should set you back £5 from dx: sku.6105, and you can pick up two genuine 2400mah capacity cells for £6.20 for 2 also from dx: sku. 20392.

I'm not trying to push you to buy my light, I'm just pointing out that as I am also located in the UK you will not face customs duty or international shipping (in fact not any shipping charges) so it would be a lot cheaper still.

In all honesty however, I would personally also strongly recommend starting with an AA light, get some eneloops and the Panasonic 'smart charger' from 7dayshop and you will have a worry and guilt free, reliable and long-lasting set up which should serve you well. I would recommend the Fenix TK20.

Good luck with your search.

 

[A[L]C]

Thanks Redforest. I was pricing the difference based on buying a new WF139 from the Uk (i dont like dx's delivery times).

Is 7dayshop a UK outlet? Seems to be from the T's and C's but you can never tell these days!

I like the look of the LD40 but its really pushing my budget. The beamshot on the TK20 doesnt excite me too much though .

 

[A[L]C]

Just having a look at the OLIGHT T25

edit: Also see the Wolfeyes A2, although I cant find any beam shots to compare

 

[tandem]

Are 18650's really that bad? I understand they can be unstable, but I was under the impression that was mainly around charging.

Charging issues may well be the source of serious problems, but it seems to be that actual usage is just as often where the problems escalate to fires and explosions. A cell that becomes unstable is dangerous on or off the charger.

Just to be clear: 18650 denotes the size of the cell (18mm X 65mm) but doesn't tell you exactly what chemistry is in them. That said, whenever someone mentions 18650 one can assume a lithium-ion cell of some sort is being discussed unless indicated otherwise.

The reason people get "18650" cells is to get access to lithium ion chemistries and the chemistry with the most energy density commonly sold on the market is Lithium-Cobalt. Unfortunately LiCo is also the least stable chemistry -- so LiCo cells need to be treated properly in order to be used safely. That means they need to be protected from the usual concerns like puncture and fire but also means they need to be protected from over-charging and from over discharging.

Over-charge protection should be built into your charger. Unfortunately there are some (many, it seems) pretty awful chargers out there on the market. You can't just buy any old charger and trust that its designers were thinking of your safety -- that is manifestly not the case.

Over-discharge protection can be your own common sense (but don't rely on that with kids!) and some flashlights will shut themselves down when the cell voltage drops beyond a certain level. When you consider what they'll be used in - a flashlight - who hasn't had run down a battery in a flashlight before? Thus it makes sense to consider this when buying a light.

When we buy lights, cells and chargers we are acting as our own "systems integrator" - taking disparate parts and making them work together. Some people are driven by price alone, others by features. For me I always rank safety up there as an important feature. If I'm buying ("designing") a lighting system which could be used by anyone in my family, all three components ideally will be either intrinsically safe, or have safety features built into them. To this day I still don't let anyone else muck with my li-ion powered lights, and certainly not with the cells and charger, without my direct supervision.

In contrast, everyone knows where my AA + AAA cell box is, they can take any cell they want, and pop them back into the "needs charging" bin when done. If I wasn't keeping track of charging stats, I would let them pop cells in the charger too. The NiMH "system" is intrinsically safer.

If the risks were more theoretical than actual perhaps I wouldn't be hung up on this, but hundreds of thousands of lithium ion battery packs have been recalled over the years because very big companies and the designers that work for them sometimes make mistakes. If they can make mistakes, so can we as we perform much the same role as our own lighting system designers.

It isn't all bad you know. Modern AA powered lights are insanely bright compared to what you could get even a couple of years ago and will almost certainly blow your mind when you compare them to any flashlight you've used before.

 

[RedForest UK]

Thanks Redforest. I was pricing the difference based on buying a new WF139 from the Uk (i dont like dx's delivery times).

Is 7dayshop a UK outlet? Seems to be from the T's and C's but you can never tell these days!

I like the look of the LD40 but its really pushing my budget. The beamshot on the TK20 doesnt excite me too much though .

7dayshop is based on Guernsey, and so shipping times are also relatively slow, I have actually had enough luck on dx to get most of my orders within 7-9 days. 7dayshop really is a great shop though, bargain prices on loads of things.

The LD40 has got a lot of bad press about donut holes and battery rattle, so I couldnt recommend one, but then I don't actually own one so wouldnt want to criticise.

Which beamshot are you looking at, if it's the one at fonevreka I seriously thing they did something wrong on the picture as the TK20 has an incredibly impressive beam still to me even in comparison with other lights shown on that website. The throw is incredible, though if you want a larger hotspot then I guess it isn't really the way to go, I would check out the E21 NW. If I was just starting and looking for a bufget light then thats the one I would pick up first, besides the TK20 of course!

 

[A[L]C]

Thanks!

There is a chance that my little'un could get hold of my new 18650 flashlight, take it to bed without me realising and leave it switched on and then fall asleep. She's done this in the past with my cheap torches so its a definite possibility.

I didnt realise they could be unstable whilst actually in use, or if run down though.

 

[A[L]C]

I wonder if Im getting too hung up on lumen ratings.

 

[tandem]

I wonder if Im getting too hung up on lumen ratings.

I'm sure most of us either are, or have been at some point, too hung up on output ratings.

A difference of 20 or so lumen output doesn't make much difference when we are talking more than 100 lumen output, so for most folks other features and factors should be what pushes a buying decision over the top rather than which light has the highest claimed output. While the better known manufacturers are starting to stand behind a universal standard, at this point in time you really can't compare a broad swath of different lights together based on the claimed number. Also the way the light is shaped as it emerges from the light is more important anyway, all other things equal. Beam shots and reports from actual users are probably your best ally in that aspect.

Even a 60 to 80 lumen output light with a decent beam is incredibly useful. I probably use my every-day light on 40-50 lumen out the front more than I use it on 100 or 140. For poking about the house, digging in cupboards, working in the attic, walking with family or friends in a dimly lit area - for most purposes rarely am I running a multi-level light on max.

There are times when I do run lights full out or near to it to be sure but for most of my purposes it wouldn't matter if the light was putting out 140 or 240 lumen through the front.