Formula 1 car vents!

[crofty]

I lol when I saw this and just had to post it. Watch as the lithium batteries in Kimi Raikkonen`s Ferrari vent! http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7980559.stm

The comentators thought the fire extinguisher went off but afterwards it was deduced that it was a problem with the Kinetic Energy Recovery System (KERS).

Poor bloke stuck sat in that chemical cloud :sick2:

 

[choaticwhisper]

Wouldn't Play for me.
Here's A link from youtube, I guess its the same.

Everyone does look abit confused.

 

[chmsam]

Here's a Wiki link about KERS.

One other neat thing about the system is that is derived from a paper by Richard Feynman that he wrote about 50 years ago.

There are a couple of other reasons he might have wanted to get out of the car quickly. Some of the components are carbon fiber (nasty stuff in a dust form or burning). The KERS unit generates 60kW -- one mechanic in F1 has already been zapped this year and the cars now have high voltage warning stickers.

There are two basic styles of KERS. One uses a kinetic system (generator & motor) and the other is a hybrid kinetic (generator, battery, & motor). The flywheel in the system spins at up to 80,000 rpm. A temporary extra 80bhp at the push of a button. All from a system that weighs about 80 lbs.

*** By the way, not only was the car hot from that, the track temp was about 98+ degrees F. at the time.

 

[Patriot]

60KW is really amazing. I've been reading about this system in the off season and development was plagued with problems. Right now they've limited the the output power to 60kW so that teams who choose not to use KERS can still remain somewhat competitive. A Formula One car is limited to a minimum weight of 605kg or 1334 lbs. The teams actually build the car much lighter than the minimum spec and then add ballast where ever they choose to bring the weight back up to 605kg. The advantage to not using KERS is that the team can put that 80lbs of ballast (which isn't used by KERS) anywhere on the car that they choose instead of having the weight were it must physically fit. F1 is talking about allowing a 80kW system so that there is a greater advantage to running KERS than to not. It will be interesting to see how things unfold. Personally I'm a purist when it comes to motor racing and F1 so I think KERS is cheesy but from a technological standpoint I find it quite cool. At least they're back on true racing slicks again after so many years of grooved tires which were extremely cheesy and out of place for the sport.

 

[Flash_Gordon]

Putting the KERS batteries in the nose certainly helps with the desired weight distribution and balance. Now, besides the real possibility of a face full of toxic fumes, there are heavy very high current cables that must run through the cockpit. Hotseat anyone?

Apparently, these KERS batteries are being charged and discharged at extremely high rates. The cost megabucks and are used for only one race.

If F1 sticks with KERS, I think we will soon see mechanical systems mandated. They use a flywheel instead of batteries. Flywheels have their own issues, but they do eliminate the very real and very serious hazards of electric shock and toxic venting. The possibility of a serious fully involved car fire is never far away.

Mark

 

[Black Rose]

Last night I watched the practice session I had recorded earlier.

Kimi was very lucky they didn't "vent with flame" like you see on Youtube videos.

 

[crofty]

The mechanics needed to use masks to work on the car and it stank out the pits for ages aparently. Kimi needed oxygen aswell :sick2:

 

[chmsam]

I'm pretty sure that not all of the KERS systems use batteries, but of course most do. The kinetic system seems to me as if it would lose energy but the battery system is more complicated (as if F1 cars aren't enough already).

This is not a cost saving measure as they've been aiming for but the technology is interesting. Does it seem safe? Well, gosh, actually no, and in fact it may be pretty unsafe. But if this were asked of the F1 big wigs the response would be in the best F1 tradition -- "What's yer point?" :shakehead 60kW, possible lithium battery venting, carbon fiber parts moving at up to 80K rpms -- all at up to 185mph or in 3-4g corners. What could possibly go wrong?

Probably a large part of the reason for KERS is to increase passing, but not so much for racing than so the TV fans will find it more interesting. As in maybe Bubba the NASCAR dude will watch one of these races. Nothing against NASCAR, or even F1, but I'm way more impressed by changes to even up the teams (limiting bodywork, change in tires, etc.) than what I see as marketing by engineering (or vice versa?).

The technology is pretty dicey. And I go back to GP races in the late 60's & 70's where drivers were killed on a sickeningly regular basis and even the highly toxic rocket fuel blends of the 80's turbo era. I think that someplace I have a photo of Christie Brinkley in the pits in Detroit in the 80's, smoking a cigarette while leaning against a fuel drum. :duck: I've seen all that and I wonder about KERS. But yeah I would like to get my hands on one of those cars.

 

[crofty]

Just watching P3 and apparently Ferrari have fixed the problem with the Kurs. They use air to keep theirs cool and with the air/track temp up high the batteries were overheating during charge.

Mclaren liquid cool theirs, so no overheating but they still couldn`t run it for the whole P2 session because a problem poped up.

Even now there are new problems showing their head, but I think once these scientists have got it bug free it`ll go a long way to making F1 even more exciting to watch. With the amount of time and money spent on it so far they can`t really afford for it not to work.

With testing been banned during the season now I wonder if that applies to kurs aswell, that would explain why we`re getting to see the ugly bits as it were as apposed to a pollished system.

Can`t wait for a wet race... shocking

 

[crofty]

lol, official word about the cause of the kurs problem now then. A short cuircuit started a battery fire which triggered the fire extinguisher.

So it did vent with flame and that was the fire extinguisher.

The mechanics wearing masks I talked about earlyer was them going through their emergancy procedures to recover the melted batteries.

Kimi said it`s not the nicest thing to have to try and breath while sitting in that smoke but he`s happy to continue useing kurs as long as the team can get everything working. So no more toxic fumes please Ferrari I joke but in all seriousness it could of been a lot worse with 180MPH corners and not being able to see. To be fair though Ferrari are looking into why the fumes came up into the cockpit so it shouldn`t happen again.

Williams are the only team using the flywheel based kers.

I wonder how long it`ll be before we see mountain bikes with kers to power a nice bright light

 

[chmsam]

Just to nitpick, it's KERS (Kinetic Energy Recovery System) -- although I bet a few of the drivers and a lot of the mechanics think it ought to be pronounced "curse." Seemed to be marginally helpful this weekend but I think the jury is still out. It most certainly is not one of the cost saving features that the F1 bigwigs were supposedly pushing so hard for.

Feynman's original idea is getting quite a workout after more than 50 years of sitting on paper. Interesting guy and a heck of a physicist. Among other things he was the guy who demonstrated clearly and succinctly that it was most likely an o-ring failure that doomed one of the space shuttles and his lecture series in physics is still being used after many, many years. He was smart enough that even a guy like me can understand a lot of that stuff. Check him out if you don't know who he was.

 

[Daekar]

Supposedly KERS is being pushed so hard to help spur development of the technology - which will then transfer to the street. It's a good idea if implemented properly - but personally I feel a hydraulic or flywheel would be the best solution. Batteries just aren't up to F1 yet, not without being scrapped after every race, plus all the other dangers. But minus all the spin and BS speak, it's a political and PR stunt to please the "green movement," plain and simple. Kind of devious though, if you think about it... Why make some research foundation or lab do it when you can outsource your research to oodles of different teams in the most competitive sport in the world? Guaranteed results if it's physically possible, better odds with multiple teams, and motivation only capitalism can provide!

 

[crofty]

Thoroughly enjoyed the racing this weekend, once kers is sorted and more teams are using it it`s going to make for some classic racing. Even the none kers cars were having a good scrap.

Of course, the technology filters down and we`re privelaged to be able to benefit from the pinnacle of motorsport.

I don`t agree that it`s solely a political and PR stunt to please the "green movement". Even if it does go some way to doing that. F1 is the pinical of motorsport, it would be a crime for it not to use it`s possition to fuel advancements. No pun intended.

 

[chmsam]

It's not entirely about anything, green or otherwise, except to attract more fans. No one is naive enough to think that the Bernie & Max show is about anything that isn't related to the moolah.

 

[crofty]

I`m glad you agree chmsam.

 

[chmsam]

Not a huge fan of KERS so far, especially with lithium ion batteries in the tub along with a load of fuel (even with the fuel in a proper cell) at those speeds and g-forces, but nobody in F1 even dares to break wind if they think it will upset either one of those two. At this time I think it is a real danger to the drivers and the crews (track workers also), but hopefully they'll sort it out before they have another venting incident like the one with Raikkonen's Ferrari.

 

[crofty]

These guys are scientist, it`ll be fine don`t worry

 

[Patriot]

Actually Daekar is correct to some extent in that the technology is partially an attempt at increasing awareness toward hybrid technology or to "develop more technologies relevant to road cars." It's likely that KERS actually made it to implementation because the FIA was sold on the idea that it would increase passing though. It's debatable which was the true incentive or which came first, the chicken or the egg, but it wasn't just too increase passing opportunities except to perhaps Bernie and Max. There are other ways of doing that such as reducing the aerodynamic disturbance signature, meaning further reducing downforce but as a F1 fan of 20+ year's I'm not necessarily gung-ho on that idea either.

As far as G-forces acting upon the fuel and batteries, these forces are relatively low with respects to the structural integrity of equipment and components since about 3-4g's lateral and 4.5-5.0g's braking is about all they ever see. This isn't to say that nearly two hours of this on the drivers isn't very demanding because it's extraordinarily physically demanding, just saying that unless the loads are unusual, as in the case of a crash or impact that F1 operational g-forces are not a serious issue with these components. These assemblies are all built with a predetermined crash resistance which often covers the dynamic loads of these systems in operation.

 

[Bimmerboy]

F1 is the pinical of motorsport, it would be a crime for it not to use it`s possition to fuel advancements. No pun intended.

This is not the purpose of Formula 1 whatsoever. It is to put the best drivers in the fastest cars, and let them race. Nothing else. Technology that filters down to consumer products is a nice, but non-essential consequence.

The only crime is that the pinnacle of motorsport is being used to advance a "green" :green: political agenda.

In an attempt to say something on topic with the OP... What kind of batts are being used in the KERS? I assume not A123's if they vented like that. Perhaps the F1 engineers should start hanging around CPF. We know not to abuse our Li-Co's.

 

[65535]

Although they have lower capacitance, super caps seem like the logical choice for the system. Or A123 Systems cells. standard lithium cells just can't deliver that much power reliably. We are talking about bursts with constant charging through an alternator. No need to worry about a capacitors self discharge.