Harder than HAIII?

[I came to the light...]

Hard annodizing, or type III annodizing, seems to be the standard for a tough coating in high-quality flashlights. However, it isn't quite as tough as I'd like. My L0D is chipped up after a month of fairly gentle EDC, and a single drop onto concrete has a good chance of putting another chip into any HAIII flashlight. However, I haven't seen anything better. My question is - is there a practical flashlight coating that's harder than HAIII? If you can show me a flashlight with a better coating I'd love that, but any info on possibilities would help too. Thanks for reading

 

[Jarl]

As you pointed out, HA, or type III, (HAIII doesn't exist) seems to be the best. HA is defined as a coating of something or other more than xx microns thick- I'm sure someone will come along with the correct numbers, I think it's 40.

So *random company* can make a light with a coating 41 microns thick and call it HA. Fair enough. However, *random company 2* can make a coating 100 microns thick, and it'll still only be type III. Generally, fenix tends to be slightly thinner coatings while still in HA territory, hence why your L0D isn't looking so good.

 

[Bullzeyebill]

I think it is the process that makes the difference between HA and type II anodize. Also, it is not layers that define differences, and HA may be thinner than type II. Just thinking out loud, and trying to recall what I have read.

Bill

 

[I came to the light...]

I'm pretty sure type II and III annodizing are the same formula, but different thicknesses, and type I is completely different.

Also, HAIII is a proper term, just repetitive. I use it because it gets the point across no matter what you're used to seeing and it's short. :shrug:

While I'm sure hardness varies slightly between brands, models, and individual lights, I doubt the difference is significant. If a company made a HAIII coating twice as hard, or even 1.1x as hard as the minimal HAIII coating, they would advertise it. so while Fenix may be just barely making the cut, I doubt even SF would put on a significantly harder coating and not mention it. After all, if nobody knows about it, it won't increase sales, while still increasing cost.

Really what I'm looking for is a different coating entirely. Something that isn't just thicker, but stronger. But thanks for the input so far

 

[olrac]

That's why I like bare metal, any scuffs or scrape are easily polished out and polished Aluminum is as sexy as it gets (or SS and TI)

 

[tricker]

AlTiN....its the third light from the left, the light is a draco.....the coatings that are available on drilling or milling bit tips can be applied to lights....pretty much the toughest closest to production light i can think of

some info on possibilities

http://www.richterprecision.com/PVD_CVD_coating_technical_data.htm

 

[Triple A]

AlTiN....its the third light from the left, the light is a draco.....the coatings that are available on drilling or milling bit tips can be applied to lights....pretty much the toughest closest to production light i can think of

Is this like the titanium nitride coating used on knives? That light looks VERY cool, by the way.

 

[tricker]

Is this like the titanium nitride coating used on knives? That light looks VERY cool, by the way.

a little thicker and harder, but similar

 

[Chronos]

I'm a bit of a novice, but I believe AlTiN coating can only be applied to titanium parts? You'll see a few AlTiN coated titanium McGizmos now and then... increases the rockwell hardness to 60+

Perhaps a diamond coating is harder than HA, but again not sure if it can be applied to aluminum, though I do not see why not.

 

[I came to the light...]

thanks for the info, especially tricker. I'm glad to see that there is something better

I should have anticipated this problem, but I'll fix it now. I realize it's pretty stupid asking for all possibilities. So I'll just say, can anybody link me to a light currently available with a coating harder/better than HAIII? Thank you

 

[Ty_Bower]

You can make the coating as hard as you like. The aluminum underneath is still soft, and will deform upon impact. If you have a hard coating over top a soft substrate, you've got a recipe for chipping.

Start with a bare aluminum light, and apply a coating like Duracoat. It has some flexibility to it, and will stand up to a fair amount of abuse. Someone around here coating a whole boatload of his lights with the stuff (I remember his U2) and posted lots of nice looking pictures.

 

[Marduke]

I wonder how Hafnium Carbide would work as a coating. Very $$$, but you could go swimming in molten lava and your light would still be fine.

 

[BobDeLaLuz]

I'm a bit of a novice, but I believe AlTiN coating can only be applied to titanium parts? You'll see a few AlTiN coated titanium McGizmos now and then... increases the rockwell hardness to 60+

Perhaps a diamond coating is harder than HA, but again not sure if it can be applied to aluminum, though I do not see why not.

I've only had experience with TiN (titanium nitride) many years ago when we first became aware of it, but if I remember correctly TiN is almost as hard as AlTiN and TiAiN and we were able to get the coating factory to apply it to aluminum.

Here is the only reference I found on the web:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/j6u7q11516301272/

 

[AvidHiker]

AFAIK, AlTiN can be applied to most metals, same with regular old TiN (the gold color commonly seen on steel drill bits). I believe this is definitely harder than aluminum oxide (hard anodize).

There is also CVD diamond, a synthetic diamond that's applied using a very advanced process (chemical vapor deposition) and none too cheap (Surefire has used it as a coating on their Delta folding knife along with some type of tungsten carbide). WC-Co (tungsten carbide-cobalt) is a very hard metal matrix composite coating (ceramic-reinforced cobalt) commonly used on tools and applied by a thermal spray process.

So, I think the answer is yes, there are planty of harder coatings out there. As far as flashlights go, there don't seem to be many alternatives to type III anodize (AlTiN and a couple others that I can't recall specifically, but these are rare). But, as others have stated, not all HA is created equal, and truly good HA is pretty damn tough. It also helps to go with a light color (NOT black) as dings don't show as easily.

 

[BobDeLaLuz]

Hard annodizing, or type III annodizing, seems to be the standard for a tough coating in high-quality flashlights. However, it isn't quite as tough as I'd like. My L0D is chipped up after a month of fairly gentle EDC, and a single drop onto concrete has a good chance of putting another chip into any HAIII flashlight. However, I haven't seen anything better. My question is - is there a practical flashlight coating that's harder than HAIII? If you can show me a flashlight with a better coating I'd love that, but any info on possibilities would help too. Thanks for reading

We're discussing coatings but regardless of how hard a costing is, if the underlying material is still soft (Aluminum) then it can still dent and if the dent is deep enough the coating can crack (or look like a scratch).

It sounds like the scratches really bother you so a custom light made of solid Steel alloy (properly alloyed with Titanium and Vanadium) would make it virtually indestructible in typical flashlight applications (albeit a bit heavier). Now if we can only get someone to volunteer to forge some billets of this material, then things could get interesting.

 

[precisionworks]

You can make the coating as hard as you like. The aluminum underneath is still soft, and will deform upon impact. If you have a hard coating over top a soft substrate, you've got a recipe for chipping.

+1

You have to have a hard substrate, like Ti, or even the highest HRc coating will simply have plastic deformation as the substrate gives under load.

Hard chrome, in relative terms, runs 68-70 HRc, is often used in industry for extreme wear parts. But the typical hard chrome plate is only .020 to .050 (although it can be applied more heavily). Put it over butter soft Al & you're back to square one.

My 'work' lights are both Ti ... my after work lights are Hardcoat Al. In a clean pocket without keys, coins or change, they look new forever. If that isn't an option, consider Ti.

a custom light made of solid Steel alloy

Good idea ... plate it inside & out with hard chrome & you'd have a nice light. No need to have something special forged, when you can buy 4140HT (aka 4140 prehard) from all the online metal suppliers, and it isn't expensive.

The real problem is that this becomes a do-it-yourself project. All the high end light makers are already working in Ti, and I'd be shocked if even one would make a steel light for you. You can have a small machine shop make a one-off, I'm guessing in the $200 to $300 range for just one, less as quantity goes up. Much cheaper to buy a Ti light from McGizmo, Muyshondt, or a Surefire Titan ... only $400 to $500 for one of those including the complete head, ready to run.

Aluminum is popular because it doesn't rust & machine cycle times are short, plus tool life is long. Ti less so, as material is expensive, slow cycle times, short tooling life, etc.

Ti is the quick & easy (and elegant) answer. Once you get over the sticker shock, you'll want more & more:twothumbs

 

[chimo]

+2

You can make the coating as hard as you like. The aluminum underneath is still soft, and will deform upon impact. If you have a hard coating over top a soft substrate, you've got a recipe for chipping.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Durability is more important. Nickle or Chrome would be good.

Raw aluminum is also good because you can just buff out any dings.

 

[jaybiz32]

Anyone have any links to machine shops that are easy to work with and will one off custom maglite coatings?

 

[precisionworks]

Most shops will do a single part or piece, but the per part charge is often the same for one or for one hundred. Set up time is usually the killer. You might ask one of the guys like Mac, who does a ton of custom work, if he could include your light with a batch of his.