HELP - noob needs help with WF500 & 18650

[spaspeckerthedull]

first of all, hi from a noob!!

The problem I've got concerns my brand new WF500 and the batteries that came with it. It came as a package with 2x ultrafire 18650 2400mAh 3.7v batteries (the BLUE ones, not sure if they're protected or unprotected?) and the WF-139 charger. Unpacked it all, put the batteries on charge, sat biting my nails waiting then at the end of about 4 hours set about playing with some serious lumens! boy was I impressed although the local cat population wasn't!! anyway, after using the torch for a few days on and off, and only for a couple of minutes at a time, the output disappeared. not being sure of the runtime, which couldn't have been more than about 20 minutes collectively, the batteries went back on charge. 2 solid green lights later back into the WF500 they go, switch on and NOTHING, no flash, no light, no nothing. very strange. check the batteries, remove them, swap them around, NOTHING. click the tailcap 5-6 times, NOTHING, so I think OK must be the bulb. out comes the multimeter, check continuity on the bulb everything OK. check voltage on each battery, 1 shows 4.17v and the other shows 4.14v. put them back in torch, remove head and check "brass button" connector with base of lamp. contact OK, no light. check output from "brass button" with meter, shows 8.2v. now very confused. order 2x replacement lamp (ebay) wait 6 days for shipping. RIP open envelope (!) put new lamp in torch, switch on - NOTHING. now getting p*ssed. open up the charger to check for burnt tracks, no smell, no burnt tracks, NOTHING so go to local market and buy panasonic CR123a lithium cell and put in torch with each 18650 individually. lamp lights!! put other 18650 in torch with CR123a - NOTHING. meter 18650 again, "working" one shows 4.12v, "non working" one shows 4.13v? now VERY confused? get 2 lengths of cable, connect up + and - of 18650 to base of lamp, lamp illuminates. connect up second 18650, lamp does NOT illuminate but battery shows 4.13v when metered? its as if battery doesn't want to let go of power? does that make any sense? at least I can use torch with one 18650 and one CR123a but its not giving me the output that I need. so, questions I need answering are:

1. Is there any other test I can do?
2. Is there anything I can do with this battery?
3. is this common?
4. should I just chance buying new 18650's and try them?
5. is it possible to "discharge" this battery and try charging it again?
6. change batteries for protected (if unprotected) or vice versa?

I have searched and searched the forums and the internet for answers but cannot come across anything remotely similar? I'd like to thank you all for your patience and congratulate you for getting this far down the post!!

PLEASE HELP!

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Spaspeckerthedull,

Welcome to CPF.

CAUTION...DANGER!!!!

Do not use a primary CR123 cell in series with a Li-Ion cell. The voltages are different and the primary cell will rapidly vent with flame.

It sounds like you have a faulty, or overly sensitive, protection circuit on one of your cells. Some people resort to multiple on/off clicks to try to warm up the lamp so the current surge is within the protection circuits ability to deliver current.

If the protection circuit is simply over sensitive, the battery should work fine with lower current draw applications.

Tom

 

[spaspeckerthedull]

thanks for the reply, i have already tried to power the lamp with the batteries individually using a couple of bits of cable - one "cell" will power the lamp, one won't. both are showing over 4 volts when metered. its as if one "cell" won't release its power - does that make sense? it sounds like one cell may be goosed then - I'll have to try and order some more from somewhere but it's a bit difficult over here in England as we get ripped off with just about everything, if we do manage to locate reasonably priced kit abroad we get stuck with "import tax" when we try and ship it in. I could just do with knowing that this is really the problem before committing to a sale from somewhere.

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Spaspeckerthedull,

When the protection circuit shuts down, the cell behaves as you describe.

You may be able to verify this by removing the protection circuit from the cell that doesn't work, then try things again. If it works properly, then the problem has been discovered. Be careful when removing the protection circuit. It is very easy to short out the cell. You will end up damaging the shrink wrap, so be sure to use some tape to insulate the cell before using it. Better yet, find some shrink wrap that fits the cell. Clear package tape will work for testing, but I don't think it is strong enough for continued use.

Tom

 

[spaspeckerthedull]

I have absolutely no idea how to remove the protection circuit from the cell that doesn't work, but if someone can give me instructions then I'm willing to give it a go - I presume its under the shrink wrap at the top of the cell and once removed it'll look like some sort of PCB? once removed how does one test it? can it be repaired/reset and used again? what if the cell doesn't have protection? what am I letting myself in for!?! how easy is it to short the cell and will this damage ME in anyway?!? LOL

 

[UncleFester]

spaspeckerthedull
Have you tried metering the cell voltage WHEN connecting the cell to the lamp with wire? My guessis that Silverfox is right and the cell is going into overcurrent protection. If so, when you load the cell with the lamp the the circuit will open and the cell voltage will fall to zero.

As the lamp filament heats up, it's resistance goes up dramatically (and thus the current it draws goes down dramatically) As Silverfox mentioned, some guys have had luck with tapping the switch several time to warm up the lamp filament ( the protection circuit takes a little time to work and the "tap" warms the lamp a little B4 the curcuit does cut the flow). Try the tapping with the lamp on the bad cell using the wire connection you mentioned.

One more thought: A fully charged LiIon cell has a higher voltage than a somewhat drained one. The higher voltage will be able to supply more initial current to the lamp and thus trip its protection easier. My guess (yes another one) is that one of the cells went into undervoltage protection when the light first went out. The batteries were then charged to their high voltage and now you're running into over current protection.

 

[-QT-]

Found this on dealextreme. Seems others are having problems getting this light to work on certain brands of cell. If you look at the forum posts at the bottom of that page, Tucker60 posts a workaround of sorts, but it seems the only brand of cells he found to work consistently are AW's..

 

[spaspeckerthedull]

this is getting good! first of all, I have no idea if the cells are protected as they are the ones that came supplied with the torch - I presume they would be ok as the seller supplied them as a package with the charger. I have tried "warming up" the lamp using the tapping method without success, and I have tried metering the defective cell at the same time as trying to power the lamp and the voltage immediately drops to zero. does this mean that this cell's protection is kicking in? after doing some research I thought or was led to believe that the ultrafire blue cells were unprotected and the silver ones protected so now I'm HUGELY confused!! :thinking: but at least we're making progress. I'm gonna have a go at dismantling the cell as I'm a big fan of DIY but would just like a heads up on what to expect. thanks guys

 

[NoFair]

I use unprotected Sanyo and Panasonic 18650s and they always work. I know what I'm doing and have family in the battery development sector

The people who post issues with this, or similar lights, almost always use protected cells.

It does draw about 3+ amps I seem to remember and more during start up. Many protection circuits don't handle this and the light will not work at all or only when using multiple clicks to turn it on.

I think AWs 18650s (new ones) work well and Pilas probably do to.

If you are unsure of how to treat Li-ions then either learning or avoiding unprotected cells is the way to go. AW has great service and is found in the Marketplace in the dealers section.

It sounds like one of your cells has a faulty protection circuit that kicks in way to early.
Usually one can see a small band under the wrapping of protected cells..

Sverre

 

[spaspeckerthedull]

thanks for the many replies - I take it then I should be using AW protected 18650 cells? will these charge ok in my wf139? looks like I'm gonna have to see if Lighthound or someone will ship to England, unless someone out there has some they're willing to sell me - i'm paypal verified if that helps?

 

[Illum]

When the protection circuit shuts down, the cell behaves as you describe.

protection circuit?
I thought Ultrafire blues were unprotected, their grey ones are protected

 

[NoFair]

thanks for the many replies - I take it then I should be using AW protected 18650 cells? will these charge ok in my wf139? looks like I'm gonna have to see if Lighthound or someone will ship to England, unless someone out there has some they're willing to sell me - i'm paypal verified if that helps?

I think AW sells that charger so it should work perfectly.

Lighthound sells AW cells I think?

I believe AW will send cells to the UK no problem at all. Check out his sales thread in the dealers section.

Sverre

 

[spaspeckerthedull]

protection circuit?
I thought Ultrafire blues were unprotected, their grey ones are protected

that's exactly what I thought, but from what I can gather through this thread my blue ones are protected, or are behaving like they're protected, or are just completely borked?

now I'm just confused .....................

 

[NoFair]

that's exactly what I thought, but from what I can gather through this thread my blue ones are protected, or are behaving like they're protected, or are just completely borked?

now I'm just confused .....................

I've never gotten a unprotected cell to read 0V even when it is totally dead and heading for recycling...
So I think your cell is protected.

Often there is a strip on the inside of the plastic sleeve on protected cells. Sometimes it is visible on the top as well. Unprotected cells should be uniformly round without any bumps at all.

Not sure this is any help at all:shrug:

Sverre

 

[scott.cr]

I have absolutely no idea how to remove the protection circuit from the cell

The DX 18650s are a complete and total waste of money, especially when you can get THESE for the same amount of money. (They're LG cells.) Granted, these are unprotected cells, so more user knowledge/caution is needed. But for the money, they are a great deal.

If you prefer protected cells (and nobody will fault you for that), you'll have to bite the bullet and buy them from AW. Those are the only protected cells that will reliably run a high-power flashlight.

BTW, to address the original issue of removing the cell protection, it is located at the cell's negative post. Cut the wrapper away from the cell and you'll see a little round circuit board spot-welded to the cell. Simply pull it off. BUT!!! The entire case of the cell is NEGATIVE contact. It is extremely easy to short the cell this way. I don't recommend doing it. Just toss them in the trash and save your fingers. ;-)

 

[spaspeckerthedull]

OK - removed all heatshrink from outside of cell to find surface of cell completely smooth, no bumps, no pcb, no strips nothing. If, as I am being led to believe, this is an unprotected cell then why is it behaving like a protected one? Its not that it never worked, it did work at first and has now stopped.

I've been doing a bit of reading on here about using protected and unprotected cells, I have read and understand (i think) the pros and cons of each cell and the issues regarding charging the different types. I've read with interest peoples opinions about various manufacturers of cells and other users recommendations. I've checked out the lighthound website and under their own listing for this flashlight they recommend using own brand (ultrafire) chargers and cells and that, "the draw is too high for some protected cells". Because I live in England my options regarding replacements is limited, sourcing and shipping stuff like this to here is a nightmare anyway because we always, ALWAYS get screwed for import tax and AFAIK there is nowhere here that I can get this light from anyway. I know lighthound ship internationally, but as previously mentioned we have the import tax thing - I originally got my light from HK via ebay and was lucky enough not to get done, a rare thing believe me, so I've ordered some replacement cells from him and yes - they are unprotected but look EXACTLY like the ones that came shipped with the light. I know this light is tempremental as regards protected cells so that is why I've gone down the unprotected route but I don't see any problems regarding charging etc as I'm quite paranoid when it comes to that anyway, they'll never be left on their own and will never actually be out of my sight whilst charging and so I can switch them off the minute I get "solid green". If they turn out to be no good then at least I'll have learned something in the process and will probably end up getting protected cells but would like to avoid them for the time being for the reasons mentioned.

I'd like to thank everyone who contributed their answers and advice and would like to think I come away from this post with more knowledge then when I started.

I'll let you know the outcome!

to be continued ...................

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Spaspeckerthedull,

If your cell is not protected and won't handle the load, it is a "crap" cell and has been damaged.

DO NOT CHARGE IT!!! Recycle it and move on.

Tom