High CRI - My Oh My!

[ForrestChump]

No problem my good man! And I, in turn, promise to send back whichever one of your two new E1DL's you choose to send to me!

Dang it. Busted. :mecry:

 

[scout24]

I would actually like to see the VME head offered in HA Nat. Seems there are way more grey host body possibilities than black...

 

[RI Chevy]

Very true! I like it. VME in HA

 

[TEEJ]

LED's should only be made available in HCRI. All others are inferior. :thumbsup:

While I have and enjoy hi CRI lights, there IS a use for average CRI lights. For example, if you are doing a search and rescue operation/disaster response, and you are looking for survivors/surveying damage, etc...for a given form factor (Size and weight of the light, etc...) the higher output of the XML2 for example over the Nichia 219 will simply illuminate more of what you are looking for, and, you will be more successful finding people that the light reached.

Sure, you can argue about what the exact shade of color the shirt they were found in was, but, I have used both types of lights, and, frankly, for the same form factors, the 219's will leave a lot of darkness out there, so you never get to see what color the shirt would have been....whereas the XML2, etc, will show me that they're out there beyond the range of the 219...and its the difference between being found and not being found.

At SHORT range, the Hi CRI lights are a lot more useful, as differentiation of colors can reveal patterns better. And that's why I use both types.

So, all others are not inferior, and, LED SHOULD be available in high out put, and high CRI designs.

 

[RI Chevy]

I agree wholeheartedly. But I guess I should have prefaced my post with the fact that we need to get the Higher Output HCRI LED's going in this market today.
I have several Nichia 219A's, and I agree and know where you are coming from. They really do not reach to far out there. Only for close up work.

 

[the.Mtn.Man]

I'm thinking my wife's reaction might be something along the lines of, "That's nice - it's a flashlight and it lights up the dark ... just like your other flashlights".

That sounds like my wife. That and, "Why would you spend $200 on one flashlight when I could buy 200 flashlights for the same price from the Dollar Store?" Of course she happily took my cool white HDS Rotary after I got my high CRI Rotary. She prefers cool white because she thinks it looks brighter, and she loves the simplicity of the Rotary interface.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I'm just blown away by the color rendition when using this!

Yep. High CRI lets you see what you've been missing. Literally. When I got my first high CRI light, an HDS Clicky, I was out in the garden doing a comparison between it and a cool white emitter. I turned on the cool white, looked at the even grayness with which plants were rendered, then I turned on the high CRI, and suddenly, I saw a brown rabbit sitting behind one of the plants. When I switched back to cool white, I noticed that the green leaves of the plants and the rabbit's brown fur had the same greyish tone making the rabbit virtually invisible behind the leaves. With high CRI, on the other hand, the colors "popped" making the rabbit clearly visible.

 

[the.Mtn.Man]

I agree. I'm just SOOOO over the cold white, low CRI junk LEDs that all the manufacturers out there seem to think people want. I just don't think the few extra lumens are worth it (and it's not like low CRI variants on an LED double output). The REAL shame is that high CRI LEDs are so hard to come by in the first place. Even Cree makes a number of 85-90+ CRI variants of the XM-L2, with tints from warm to neutral white. But most of these are nowhere to be found (except for a few Armytek lights and P60 drop-ins). Zebralight actually seems to be one of the better manufacturers out there in terms of high CRI with their offerings that use the Philips Luxeon T emitters (which are quite good). But otherwise, good luck! Sometimes, a manufacturer might even have the light available with a high CRI emitter, but nobody wants to sell it. I guess that, as long as lumen count is all that's important to people, this will be the way things are.

BTW, is it just me, or do the lumens of a high CRI emitter just seem to be more 'effective' than the lumens of a low CRI emitter? In other words, does a high CRI emitter actually make better use of its available lumens? I would think that, if nothing else, a higher CRI emitter sould allow you to better see certain details that a lower CRI emitter might 'wash out' due to not being able to make out subtle color differences.

To answer your first question, it is what people want. A lot of people don't care about color rendering, they just want the brightest light they can get their hands on. I do wish there was more demand for high CRI, but since they usually have a lower output, the majority of consumers turn their nose up at them.

Regarding your second question, assuming all other things are equal, I find that I can see better with a high CRI light source. My depth perception and objection recognition is greatly improved compared to a cool white source.

 

[TEEJ]

Sometimes, the cooler lights emphasize colors of interest more than a high CRI light would...so depending upon what you're looking FOR, the high CRI, or, the std CRI light might work best.

To give an example to illustrate the concept, we use certain wavelength lights to find things hidden from daylight/balanced light sources in forensic investigations. Blood or biologicals might pop out more distinctly for example.

The very fact that colors might be rendered differently can make some colors pop out where they would normally be more subtle, etc.


As for "the great unwashed" and their strong preference for whiter light - well, its their baseline. Its like those light bars you see on all the off road rigs now a days....massive lumen output, all in a pool right in front of the rig...glaring out any details for things off in the darkness. They perceive the massive lumens and the giant pool of brightness right in front of them as "BRIGHT!", and trying to convince them that they are now MORE likely to hit that deer they added lights to see in time....falls on deaf ears/blinded eyes.

:candle:

 

[neutralwhite]

Thanks,- so cool White is more of a danger than good?.
turning on hcri like that wouldn't surely brighten up the area ahead as much.
i mean cool white is good to illuminate an area to see what's out there right?.

Sometimes, the cooler lights emphasize colors of interest more than a high CRI light would...so depending upon what you're looking FOR, the high CRI, or, the std CRI light might work best.

To give an example to illustrate the concept, we use certain wavelength lights to find things hidden from daylight/balanced light sources in forensic investigations. Blood or biologicals might pop out more distinctly for example.

The very fact that colors might be rendered differently can make some colors pop out where they would normally be more subtle, etc.


As for "the great unwashed" and their strong preference for whiter light - well, its their baseline. Its like those light bars you see on all the off road rigs now a days....massive lumen output, all in a pool right in front of the rig...glaring out any details for things off in the darkness. They perceive the massive lumens and the giant pool of brightness right in front of them as "BRIGHT!", and trying to convince them that they are now MORE likely to hit that deer they added lights to see in time....falls on deaf ears/blinded eyes.

:candle:

 

[D7v7d]

I bought the Eagletac MX25L3C with Nichia 219 LEDs specifically because of the increase in color rating index, aka CRI, versus previous higher power LED lighting, to reasonably natural. My use will be rather unique versus what other enthusiasts on this board use these lights for. That is as a portable hand held lighting source for exhibited color photographic prints. Venue lighting where one publicly displays photographic prints and other art as paintings is often limited having a negative impact on art aesthetics. Consider for instance popular street art fairs where art is placed beneath typical white canvas tent canopies. Depending on the time of day, sun orientation, weather, nearby buildings and other blocking objects, the light onto a colored subject piece of art may vary. Thus a handheld source can readily spot light target art a small audience is actively viewing. Though not something to use beyond temporary brief use because battery power is limited. Most serious galleries and museums use high CRI index Solux bulbs so that is not as much an issue. One 50 watt 4.7k 10 degree beam angle solux bulb puts out about 17k lux at 1 foot so the output of these flashlights are in the same ball park. The flashlight however needs to have the diffuser mounted for more even illumination. I started this thread today because the filter is less than complete:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?392519-Eagletac-MX25L3-filter-mounting

My initial response after receiving the flashlight is that illumination and rendered color on large photographic prints is excellent from typical viewing distances. I will predict not a few others from online art communities will begin taking notice in these products upon reading what I am doing even without actually seeing such live because it makes sense. Additionally one might expect like interest from those doing hand held video on dim subjects. A whole new paradigm shift away from traditional weighty solutions though the current high cost will dampen change.

 

[LEDAdd1ct]

I find neutral tinted lights offer the best balance between making colors stand out and taking a serious lumen hit.

For me this is a hobby, and my first priority is to be able to see.

After that, I take a minor lumen hit to drop down in CCT, and maybe have over 80 CRI.

One day I hope to have my cake and eat it, too.

 

[Warp]

One day I hope to have my cake and eat it, too.

It will happen.

Years ago it was always "bright, small, long running...pick two". Well today you can have all three, with one of them in spades.

Having size and output/runtime to the point where you can be primarily concerned with things like UI and tint is a great thing.

As I am sure you are more than aware, given your join date.

 

[StorminMatt]

To answer your first question, it is what people want. A lot of people don't care about color rendering, they just want the brightest light they can get their hands on. I do wish there was more demand for high CRI, but since they usually have a lower output, the majority of consumers turn their nose up at them.

I still disagree that people want higher output at the expense of lower CRI. Perhaps the best evidence to this is the fact that, at Illumination Supply, the neutral Zebralights tend to be on backorder while the cool Zebralights are mostly in stock. And speaking of Zebralight, the neutral XM-L2 lights can actually have really good color rendition these days. But the hit on lumens that they take compared to cool white is actually quite small - 930 lumens for a neutral SC62w (75 CRI) vs 1000 for a cool SC62 (65 CRI). So you don't have to give up alot of lumens for better tint/CRI.

 

[the.Mtn.Man]

Sometimes, the cooler lights emphasize colors of interest more than a high CRI light would...so depending upon what you're looking FOR, the high CRI, or, the std CRI light might work best.

To give an example to illustrate the concept, we use certain wavelength lights to find things hidden from daylight/balanced light sources in forensic investigations. Blood or biologicals might pop out more distinctly for example.

The very fact that colors might be rendered differently can make some colors pop out where they would normally be more subtle, etc.

Yes, there are special-case situations where different colors are preferred, but for general, everyday use, I find warm high CRI to be the best because it makes things look the way I expect them to look.

 

[the.Mtn.Man]

I still disagree that people want higher output at the expense of lower CRI. Perhaps the best evidence to this is the fact that, at Illumination Supply, the neutral Zebralights tend to be on backorder while the cool Zebralights are mostly in stock.

It depends on why they're backordered. Is it because they can't keep up with demand? Or is it because there's not enough demand to justify keeping them in stock as a regular item?

 

[the.Mtn.Man]

Thanks,- so cool White is more of a danger than good?.
turning on hcri like that wouldn't surely brighten up the area ahead as much.
i mean cool white is good to illuminate an area to see what's out there right?.

It depends, but with a bright, tightly focused beam, your eyes will adapt to the bright hotspot which can make it harder to see areas that aren't illuminated.

 

[LEDAdd1ct]

It will happen.

Years ago it was always "bright, small, long running...pick two". Well today you can have all three, with one of them in spades.

Having size and output/runtime to the point where you can be primarily concerned with things like UI and tint is a great thing.

As I am sure you are more than aware, given your join date.

Indeed, I forgot whose signature that was, but still retain the phrase mentally. Sometimes six or eight months will pass and I won't be particularly intrigued by flashlights, but something always pulls me back, usually to the detriment of my wallet.

You are right, though, in that when I first joined this forum (after lurking for many moons), I had to go through these phases:

5mm LEDs are super bright and no yellow! ----> Wow! Lux I! ----> Wow! Lux III! ---> Wow! Lux V! So bright! Five watts! ----> etc...until we arrive at a point in time when we can consider tint and color rendering and modes and...

Being able to appreciate things such as tint and CRI would never have occurred to me all those years ago. These are fortunate times!

I still disagree that people want higher output at the expense of lower CRI. Perhaps the best evidence to this is the fact that, at Illumination Supply, the neutral Zebralights tend to be on backorder while the cool Zebralights are mostly in stock.

I would simply draw a distinction here, one of the sort of big fish in a small pond, which leads to a larger comment about human nature:

It is easy when in a group of experts or fellow hobbyists to generalize our notions about what "most" people like, when in fact,
we remain a vocal minority.

Choose any hobby, any area of interest, and there will be a group of experts (self-proclaimed or otherwise),
with a rich knowledge of the subject matter. There will be others, however, who consider that object/idea/concept something
they might use/consider/evaluate briefly, and without great thought.

My humble guess is that most folks when presented with a choice between two lights will choose the brighter one.
My second, slightly less humble guess is that most folks, when presented with a choice between light or no light at all will choose light.

Now, if you take a moment to educate them about the differences, they may, in fact, change their mind. Having a rich content knowledge is a pretty neat thing, but in the end, we must remember that "we" are still a very, very small group of people, having in common a particular affection for setting photons loose on the world.

* * *

A couple nights ago I drove in the car 40 minutes to retrieve a gift for my brother, which someone had left on their front stoop in a city with which I am not intimately familiar. Despite many hours partaking in this hobby, the light that I had on me was—

nonexistent.

So, I spent 20 minutes squinting at mailboxes, flag posts, porches and doors trying to discern the address number.
In this situation, any light would have been a great light!

As Warp points out, when we are fortunate enough to be able to discuss the benefits of this tint or that,
it can be important to remember how different we are than the general populace in how, when, and why we consider the merits
of one light over another.

Being able to have the time and/or money to invest in this hobby is a privilege, as is the occasion to debate what the common man (or lady) on the street prefers.

 

[Warp]

I still disagree that people want higher output at the expense of lower CRI. Perhaps the best evidence to this is the fact that, at Illumination Supply, the neutral Zebralights tend to be on backorder while the cool Zebralights are mostly in stock. And speaking of Zebralight, the neutral XM-L2 lights can actually have really good color rendition these days. But the hit on lumens that they take compared to cool white is actually quite small - 930 lumens for a neutral SC62w (75 CRI) vs 1000 for a cool SC62 (65 CRI). So you don't have to give up alot of lumens for better tint/CRI.

Exactly.

7% drop in that example.

 

[reppans]

I have a ~half dozen HCRI (mostly N219s) and as many NWs (mostly XMLs) but I use cool whites the majority of the time. I certainly like nice tints, and all else equal, HCRI > NW > CW, but I guess I'm just not a tint snob. If anything, I'm a sub-/low- lumen output and mode spacing snob, and in a few cases (OEM & Modded) dropping in the less efficient N219 in the same driver has reduced the usefulness the sub-lumen mode, which has spoiled the light for me. I even prioritize beam profile, UIs, build quality, and even pocket clips over the tint. But all that said, being a low lumen, night vision enthusiast, I suppose "color" at such low illumination levels is bordering on near black and white anyways .

 

[Mr. Tone]

I have a ~half dozen HCRI (mostly N219s) and as many NWs (mostly XMLs) but I use cool whites the majority of the time. I certainly like nice tints, and all else equal, HCRI > NW > CW, but I guess I'm just not a tint snob. If anything, I'm a sub-/low- lumen output and mode spacing snob, and in a few cases (OEM & Modded) dropping in the less efficient N219 in the same driver has reduced the usefulness the sub-lumen mode, which has spoiled the light for me. I even prioritize beam profile, UIs, build quality, and even pocket clips over the tint. But all that said, being a low lumen, night vision enthusiast, I suppose "color" at such low illumination levels is bordering on near black and white anyways .

I love moonlight modes as well. Yes, it seems at those sub-lumen levels that our eyes see things as monochromatic.