How much more room for improvement is there with LEDs? Will they become much better?

HighlanderNorth

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I'm new at LED technology, and this is only my 2nd post here, and I've probably got much to learn about this topic.:confused:

I'm embarrassed to say that I thought Maglights were the top-of-the-line as far as flashlight were concerned.....:confused:

I remember years ago seeing LED lights that were so dim that it was laughable.

But I've noticed in the reading that I've done that it seems the LEDs have really only gotten as good as they are now recently. Now I know that there is usually room for improvement with most technologies, but some technologies are at the end of their ropes as far as improvement is concerned. I would imagine that there isnt going to be much more improvement in incandescent bulbs for instance.

The first decent quality LED type light source I bought was in 2007. I was looking for a backpacking type headlamp, and I discovered a flashlight review sight called flashlightreviews.com. I was also spending LOTS of time reviewing many other new items I needed to rebuild my backpacking/camping gear supply, which was completely outdated and old(1980's and 1990's).

It seemed that the guy who runs the flashlightreview.com site was at least semi-retiring, and wasnt doing as many reviews, but there were some new ones at the time. I found a headlamp from an unknown company that was called the LED Duet. It had 3, 5mm Luxeon LEDs, and a larger, more powerful LED. The 3, 5mm Luxeons were lined up side by side, and the larger LED was above. There were 5 modes. You could turn on 1-2 or 3 5 mm LEDs at the same time, or just the larger one, which was much brighter and has much longer range. There is also a strobe feature. The headlamp also has a battery charge indicator LED that tells you if it has a low, medium or high charge. It runs on 3 AAA's. These features were the same as a much more expensive Princeton tech unit, which also had 5mm's and 1 larger LED, but ran on 4AAA's so it was brighter, but the LED Duet was certainly bright enough when used on a mountain trail late at night, or at the campsite. It has worked great, and has good battery life. It got 4 out of 5 stars on the review site.

But now, there are new companies making LEDs that seem to be more efficient than Luxeons, according to what I've seen on that review site. They have the same brightness, with twice the efficiency.

But are the LED manufacturers getting close to reaching the zenith of this technology, or is there still a lot of room for further improvement in efficiency, power and brightness?

I am now seeing a lot of Cree LEDs being offered in lights. Are there other new or older companies that are producing top LEDs?

Also, are American companies competitive in the LED market, or are we losing out there too? I hate to buy Chinese stuff.......To be honest.
 

mr.snakeman

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Just a quicky: you ain´t seen `nothin´yet. The advances in LED technology are moving so fast that it is almost impossible for a lay person to keep up with the advances that are being made on a daily basis. Good luck in your search.
 

JacobJones

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Luxeons are now outdated even though they where cutting edge a few years ago. The big three when it comes to LEDs are Cree, Seoul semiconducter and luminus devices. Cree is American and I believe they are leading the way in LED technology
 

dosei-45

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I'm very much of the mindset/belief that we are just starting to scratch the surface of the LED's potential.
 

yowzer

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I'm embarrassed to say that I thought Maglights were the top-of-the-line as far as flashlight were concerned.....

No need to be embarrassed over that. Lots of people think the same, and if you're judging based on the lights that are available in typical retail stores in the US, it's only to be expected. And, reportedly, the newest Maglight models aren't that bad even by this place's standards.
 

JacobJones

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I also used to believe maglites where the best, and it's true they where... 30 years ago. I'm shocked how quickly led technology has advanced, 10 years ago LEDs wherent good for much more than indicator lights on computers and other electronic devices. I can't wait to see what LEDs are available in another ten years and I can look back at threads from now and think about how far we have come. hopefully I'll still have all my Cree XP-G lights then so I can see how dim and outdated they are. Even in the short time since I became a flashaholic just before last christmas LEDs have advanced, LEDs have become significantly more efficient in that short time with the release of the Cree XML
 
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MikeAusC

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Cree currently state on their XM-L Datasheet "1000 lumens with 100 lumens per watt efficacy"

The theoretical limit for white phosphor-based LEDs is 300 lumens per watt.

No doubt non-phosphor white LEDs will then start to break that barrier.
 

DM51

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Welcome to CPF, HighlanderNorth. :)

As your thread is about LED technology rather than LED Flashlights, I'm moving it to the LED section where these discussions are held. You'll find many other threads there about the new advances in LEDs, and I'm sure you'll find them interesting.
 

calipsoii

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Luxeons are now outdated even though they where cutting edge a few years ago. The big three when it comes to LEDs are Cree, Seoul semiconducter and luminus devices. Cree is American and I believe they are leading the way in LED technology

Actually, while luxeon's haven't seen much use in recent flashlights, they are still hard at work creating high-quality LED's for the consumer lighting market. They now go by the company name LumiLed's and were bought by Phillips. They recently won the L-prize for their 60W lightbulb replacement. http://www.philipslumileds.com/L-Prize

And actually, the new 85CRI 4000K Rebel isn't such a slouch either. ZebraLight is using it in the SC51c.

Disclaimer: I don't work for them, but I disagree when people say they're done. They still put out a decent offering, they're just targetting a different market than Cree's "OMG EFFICIENT LUMENS" campaign.
 
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HighlanderNorth

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Luxeons are now outdated even though they where cutting edge a few years ago. The big three when it comes to LEDs are Cree, Seoul semiconducter and luminus devices. Cree is American and I believe they are leading the way in LED technology


**You stated that Cree is an American LED manufacturer, and is leading the way. But one more day has passed, so Cree has probably moved to China by now.

To DM51: Sorry about posting this thread in this forum area..... I was mainly interested in asking about LED technology advancement for flashlights, but I guess it is a question that applies to ALL LEDs, not just LEDs for flashlights.
 

Curt R

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The major LED flashlight manufacturers get to look at the latest in
LED technology before the rest of us. But sometimes they are the
last to get to market. SF started working on their latest high power
flashlight 3 years ago using the Seoul P7 LED. I do not know if they
use the Cree MC-E or the P7, however when they brought it out several
months ago, it was obsolete. And at $695.00 USD it cost more than
double that of a US built 800 Lumen light using the latest Cree XM-L.

As for Mag, they are also outdated with their newest LED lights. The big
US based companies are building for the consumer market and not to
provide the latest technology to the uninformed. They design and
manufacture to cost annalists.

The next LED to come from Cree will be close to the Luminus SST-50 in
size and power at less that half the cost. Cree has test bench LEDs that
exceed 200 Lumens per watt. Getting that technology to manufacturing
is always the time and real cost stumbling block. You must also have a
market for technology verses what you are currently producing and the profit
margin difference.

Our little world of flashlights is an afterthought and not a concern to the LED
manufacturers. We may think that a 100 million flashlights a year is a big
deal, but to them it is a very small percentage of their output.

Curt
 

JacobJones

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**You stated that Cree is an American LED manufacturer, and is leading the way. But one more day has passed, so Cree has probably moved to China by now.

Well they do have a factory in china making their LEDs aswell as in America, but they are an American company
 

LEDninja

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:welcome:
You stated that Cree is an American LED manufacturer, and is leading the way. But one more day has passed, so Cree has probably moved to China by now.
Cree makes the LED die (the part that actually makes light) in the US and assembles the whole LED (die + case + optics + wiring) in both the US and China. Because the most important part is not made in China the Chinese are unable to make illegal bootleg copies. (There are identical looking products but they do not perform as well.)

-

EDIT
The old Luxeon is about 30 lumens per watt.
The Cree XRE is about 80 lumens per watt (P4 bin) to 114 lumens per watt (R2 bin)
The Luxeon Rebel is 60-90 lumens per watt.
The Cree XPG is about 139 lumens per watt.
The Cree XML is about 160 lumens per watt.
As mentioned earlier:
Cree experimental 200 lumens per watt.
Theoretical limit for blue/phosphor LEDs 300 lumens per watt.
-
While RGB LEDs can go higher they only have red, green, blue. No orange, yellow, cyan, or violet. Not a problem in LED TVs and computer monitors but may be a problem elsewhere.
 
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clint357

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I think that the ability to handle high heat would also be a massive improvement. Just think of the flashlight you could make if the LED was able to reach 800 degrees F without any damage. The light could be pocket sized and throw out a couple thousand lumens.
 

mattheww50

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The heat problem gets better as the luminous efficiency increase. The more out the LED photons you can get, the few that are left behind to become heat. So a very high efficiency LED will require substantially less heat sinking capacity than a lower efficiency device. This effect becomes quite dramatic as the luminous efficiency passes 50%.
 
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DM51

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I think that the ability to handle high heat would also be a massive improvement. Just think of the flashlight you could make if the LED was able to reach 800 degrees F without any damage.
That's unlikely to help very much unless there is a similar improvement in the ability of the batteries to handle the heat produced by the LED. The same goes for your hand, actually...
 

kingofwylietx

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That's unlikely to help very much unless there is a similar improvement in the ability of the batteries to handle the heat produced by the LED. The same goes for your hand, actually...

So, the most efficient LED is one that you can run at full power, without it producing any heat. Heat = inefficiency.

Is that a correct statement?

I have 2 generations of an LED light. One is 2 years old and consumes 30 watts. It gets fairly warm and puts out decent light. The newer one, which just came out last week, consumes 30 watts but doesn't get quite as warm...uses the same exterior casing, and puts out 40% more lumens.

To me, that is an improvement in efficiency. The exact same case/heatsink, more light output, less heat (so they are not pushing the LED's as hard).

So, in my mind, if an LED product produces heat: It can be made more efficient.
 

calipsoii

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So, in my mind, if an LED product produces heat: It can be made more efficient.

Anything that electrons flow through will produce heat.

The limit to *white* LED efficiency is largely due to the phosphor. A blue photon pump is blasting away at yellow phosphor, which is absorbing the blue photons and releasing "white" ones instead. There is not a 1-to-1 ratio in this operation. This is why two LED's that are identical except for their phosphor can have different lumen ratings. A phosphor with a higher CRI output puts out fewer lumens that one with a lower CRI.

Your argument that heat = inefficiency is more appropriate when comparing the base photon pump (blue) without bringing phosphor into the equation. Unfortunately, blue LED light isn't very appealing, so at least for now, efficiency as it applies to flashlights is the sum of many parts.
 

Epsilon

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The next LED to come from Cree will be close to the Luminus SST-50 in
size and power at less that half the cost. Cree has test bench LEDs that
exceed 200 Lumens per watt. Getting that technology to manufacturing
is always the time and real cost stumbling block. You must also have a
market for technology verses what you are currently producing and the profit
margin difference.
Curt
Do you have more info about this? Are there even SST90 sized leds on the schedule? And what is the ETA on these leds?

Can't wait ;)
 
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