Hybrids over-rated?

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tkl

Flashlight Enthusiast
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Forbes Magazine
Electric Chic
Thursday April 1, 6:32 pm ET
By Jonathan Fahey
Does the spike in gas prices have you excited about hybrid cars? Get out a pencil and the back of an envelope.

Gas prices reached an all-time high in late March, says the Department of Energy--an average $1.74 a gallon nationally. So automakers picked the perfect time to unveil a new crop of fuel-saving gasoline-electric hybrids, right?

They did, for the right kind of buyer. That would be someone who is not very good at arithmetic.

General Motors will later this year start selling hybrid versions of its big Chevrolet and GMC pickups to retail customers. For an additional $2,500 (above an average price of $35,000), buyers will see all of 2 miles per gallon in better fuel economy. Assuming 15,000 miles a year and $2-a-gallon gas, the driver would save a measly $186 a year. The government gives you back $500 or so, depending on your tax bracket, in the form of a $1,500 federal deduction for the hybrid. (Although this green-engine deduction, available even if a car or truck has no business purpose, is being phased out.) Net cost: $2,000.

It will take you close to 11 years to make the cost back at the pump. And you're probably going to trade in the pickup long before that.

Our cost figure is probably too low, anyway. Some manufacturers are going to add $4,000 to the sticker for going hybrid. Plus, Honda, Ford, Toyota and Lexus plan to stuff their hybrid cars--versions of already top-selling vehicles--with high-margin amenities like navigation systems and leather seats. The thinking seems to be that any driver in a position to throw money around on a hybrid power train isn't going to balk at other expensive features.

"Until we get to $3 a gallon, we are not going to see profound change in the way people buy vehicles," says Lindsay Brooke, a senior analyst who specializes in the hybrid market for automotive forecasting firm CSM Worldwide.

For some buyers--those consumed by environmental guilt and willing to drive lightweight, low-horsepower cars--hybrids are already a compelling buy. Since their introduction, Toyota's Prius and Honda's Insight and Civic Hybrid, which can get 50 miles to the gallon, have sold a combined 122,758 units. The Prius has a power plant that can deliver 110hp. Fine for a small car, but definitely not for towing your Airstream.

"There are always early adopters and gadget geeks," says Sheri Shapiro, the marketing manager for Ford's coming hybrid Escape SUV. "But mainstream consumers don't want to have to get a different vehicle to get fuel economy and better emissions."

To reach beyond the green crowd, carmakers are trying to sell performance, like higher horsepower, instead of just gas savings. GM even plans to entice buyers to its hybrid with 120-volt power outlets so the truck can serve as a generator on wheels. It will be handy for anyone building a house or living in one that is on an ill-maintained power grid. A hybrid Dodge truck due out late this year will offer similar features, with a diesel engine.

The hybrid version of Ford's Escape SUV will offer a peak 200hp--normally available on a V6--out of a four-cylinder gas engine. It can do that by dint of the fact that the gas engine and the battery, which is recharged during normal driving, can work together. The gas engine by itself puts out only 153hp. The hybrid SUV will beat the regular Escape's four-cylinder fuel economy by 40%.

Honda's Accord hybrid, the first hybrid V6 on the market, will boast 240hp with the fuel economy of the no-frills four-cylinder version. Toyota's coming Lexus RX400h and Toyota Highlander SUVs will trumpet 270hp and improved acceleration, along with the fuel economy of a 130hp Corolla.

CSM's Brooke says hybrids will be at best 10% to 15% of the new-car market ten years from now. "The proof will come within the next 12 to 18 months," he says.

Ford Division President Stephen Lyons says he has been ratcheting up sales estimates as the Escape Hybrid gets closer to launch. "This is a growing market," he says. "There is more knowledge out there about hybrids than I ever thought there was."

Or is there? To convince people hybrids don't have to be plugged in, Lyons has to dream up stunts like the one he's pulling this month. Ford is rounding up celebrities and politicos to drive a hybrid Escape for 500 miles through Manhattan--the combined distance of all of the island's streets--on a single tank of gas.

*Combined city/highway MPG. 2Compared with Toyota Camry. NA: Not available. Sources: U.S. Environmental Protection Agency; company information and estimates. Hybrid, Now With Horsepower!
The new crop of hybrids will be sold on performance, not just fuel economy.
 
The truck 'hybrids' are not 'real' hybrids in my book.
For example, the Chevy Silverado "hybrid" has a standard 295 horse engine coupled to a hybrid motor.
Want to guess how big the motor is?
A whopping 18 hp.
Woopiee!
The battery pack is made up of three small car batteries in series. I bet its not even 500 watts of energy storage.
Their selling it on the hybrid craze, not realistic performance.
People who buy it are looking more for the generator ability of these trucks.
However, Gm is claiming a real world fuel decrease of 12-15%. Ya that works out to about 2 mpg. On something that gets 14 mpg. Even that, out of something I hesitate to call a hybrid, is pretty darn good.

And inside the article, they then go on to contradict themselves. In the Ford paragraph, they indicate that this one will get 40% better gas mileage. On a vehicle that currently get 24 mpg. That's a $250 dollar a year payback.

Just computing the gas is a crazy idea.
How about the fact that a hybrid system removes stress from the engine and adds it to a subsystem that is much more capable. What if that truck or car lasts a few extra YEARS? That's not worth anything, is it?

I guess that's all for tonight...
 
Ah...diesel technology, simple...good.

IMHO...hybrids really only make sense if two things are included:

1. Can run on renewable fuels; either biodiesel or 85% ethanol
2. Include enough battery for at least 20 mile range of all-electric drive

Otherwise, the current fascination with hybrids only seems good for getting us to #2.

Diesel all by itself is much simpler, less expensive and lasts longer. My 2003 VW Golf TDI already gets an honest 49 mpg on the highway on petroleum diesel...and, I can run entirely renewable fuels if I wish. No complicated technology and pulls like crazy all day long.
 
ikendu, i heard of someone on NPR talking about biodiesel--it was an interesting show.

one guy was saying that he runs his diesel jetta(?) on olive oil! he said is runs great--and smells faintly like italian food going down the road. LOL!
he gets the reject oil at very low cost somewhere near his residence.

the more i read, the more i would LOVE to see biodiesel/etc used instead of oil. and of course good electrics.
think of the light youcould power off all those bats!

thanks for the great info!

Bob
 
I personally have mixed feelings about hybrids. Any improved milage is a good idea in general, although whether it is cost-effective is going to vary with the vehicle and how it is used.

My feeling is that the hybrid will excel in urban situations. Specifically, those situations that involve sitting a long time at an intersection. I believe that the existing Honda and Toyota hybrids are designed to shut off the ICE while at the light. Just think of all the pollution and wasted gas that could be eliminated by this feature! Very cool!

Of course, an EV would be just as handy in that scenario, but EV's aren't as easy to purchase (right Darrell? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif )
My own situation involves bike commuting 80% or 90% of the time, so my 32mpg Acura Integra sits at home a lot. Mostly it gets used for long trips or weekly runs to the stores.

I tend to think that hybrids are an interim step towards the next technology. They do provide improvements in some cases.

Steve K.
 
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Yes, hybrids are a transitional technology,but the transition to a hydrogen
economy (fuel cells) or mass production of EVs(If Darell can convince the Big 3) looks to be a at least a few years away and probably more.
I have recently ordered a Prius which will become my primary vehicle.
Not merely for the sake of ecological pieties (although that's important to me), but for the geopolitical aspects,as well. We certainly will become a more secure country if we can wean ourselves from our oil dependency.Not to mention having the option to diassociate ourselves from any # of anti-democratic and otherwise repugnant oil-producing countries.They sully the soul of our Republic.
Hybrids are a step in the right direction. Bio-diesel,hi-tech eurodiesel, another.
 
Getting a car with better gas milage unfortunately won't decrease OPEC's profits - they'll just raise the price per gallon.....and keep funding terrorist organizations.

Hydrogen (stored under pressure), in my opinion is laughable - ever work with that stuff ? One wrong move and it goes boom - bigtime (just ask the Challenger crew [most unfortunate, but it illustrates the point]). Hydrogen proponents then claim that it's not going to 'go boom' unless mixed with oxygen. Except for the fact that you have to take into account that it needs to be stored at 3000 PSI in your car (if used as an automobile fuel system). Even if the H2 never oxidizes, ANYTHING at 3K psi goes boom if you compromise it's container (even noble gases like helium will produce a respectable shockwave w/o any oxidization while being catastrophically released from a 3K psi environment, into a 15 psi environment. Then, once released, it has the opportunity to mix with O2 and cause a secondary, larger explosion. And sooner or latter, a tanker vehicle ( carrying acid, water, milk, etc ) is going to hit a car, mash the H2 tank, and KaBOOOOM ! It won't be a pretty sight.

Solar is free.
It can power your house for free.
It can recharge your car for free.
It has the ability to keep Oil-funded nations from flagrantly spending their oil profits on terrorism (but it's gotta be all or nothing - if they are still selling oil to someone, the terrorism funds will still be rolling in).

Only problem right now is the battery technology - it still doesn't hold enough. I would actually be for a hybrid that was more electric than internal combustion - this would allow the car to run on gas after you hit the 120 mile 'wall' and the battery gave out. Over time, the batteries and electric drive system would be improved and the gas portion of the engine could be made smaller, and smaller, then eventually phased out in 40 - 50 years when the battery technology had matured.

Just my take on it - and to really blow you all away, I'm a political conservative whose advocating solar - now you know the end of the world must be near ! :-P
 
Just my point,Mednanu---it's a transitional technology. Stay posted for future
developments in better storage technology for H2. Batteries continues to improve. Solar becomes ever more cost effective. And you are far from being the only conservative who is an advocate of solar tech.
 
Solar is not a very good option for lots of reasons. Solar cells are not that efficient at making power, your car would have to covered in them to keep the batteries charged. The battery problems you mentioned. You can't use them at night, or places that the sun is not shining. Try solar power in Western Washington. Or Monterey, CA. Cloudy until 11 every morning.
I'm with the bio-diesel crowd, especially when a hybrid.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Unicorn said:
Solar is not a very good option for lots of reasons. Solar cells are not that efficient at making power, your car would have to covered in them to keep the batteries charged.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry - I could see how one would infer my referring to 'solar-on-the-car' from my post above. I'm not actually referring to solar cells on the car - that would be pointless (for exactly the reasons that you had mentioned). I'm referring to one's use of solar on their own roof in order to charge their car. It's only feasible for a portion of users who live in sunny climates and receive enough direct sunlight to be useful in charging their vehicle at this point. I realize that that leaves a lot of others out in the dust in the meantime.

Bio diesel would be perfect for the rest of the market (and almost instantly available) until practical EV's and alternate power generation sources were finally a reality ( ie - large scale fusion generation ).

In the meantime, for those who cannot take advantage of solar, another very compelling interim technology used to produce a renewable bio-based fuel is Thermal depolymerization - It works right now, and is staring to be used within industry at this very moment. Quite a cool technology for the bio-diesel crowd - Discover magazine wrote a very intersting article on it some time ago:
<font color="blue">
DISCOVER Vol. 24 No. 5 (May 2003)
Table of Contents

Anything into Oil
Technological savvy could turn 600 million tons of turkey guts and other waste into 4 billion barrels of light Texas crude each year
By Brad Lemley
Photography by Tony Law

Gory refuse, from a Butterball Turkey plant in Carthage, Missouri, will no longer go to waste. Each day 200 tons of turkey offal will be carted to the first industrial-scale thermal depolymerization plant, recently completed in an adjacent lot, and be transformed into various useful products, including 600 barrels of light oil.

In an industrial park in Philadelphia sits a new machine that can change almost anything into oil.
    Really.
    "This is a solution to three of the biggest problems facing mankind," says Brian Appel, chairman and CEO of Changing World Technologies, the company that built this pilot plant and has just completed its first industrial-size installation in Missouri. "This process can deal with the world's waste. It can supplement our dwindling supplies of oil. And it can slow down global warming."
    Pardon me, says a reporter, shivering in the frigid dawn, but that sounds too good to be true.
    "Everybody says that," says Appel. He is a tall, affable entrepreneur who has assembled a team of scientists, former government leaders, and deep-pocketed investors to develop and sell what he calls the thermal depolymerization process, or TDP. The process is designed to handle almost any waste product imaginable, including turkey offal, tires, plastic bottles, harbor-dredged muck, old computers, municipal garbage, cornstalks, paper-pulp effluent, infectious medical waste, oil-refinery residues, even biological weapons such as anthrax spores. According to Appel, waste goes in one end and comes out the other as three products, all valuable and environmentally benign: high-quality oil, clean-burning gas, and purified minerals that can be used as fuels, fertilizers, or specialty chemicals for manufacturing.
    Unlike other solid-to-liquid-fuel processes such as cornstarch into ethanol, this one will accept almost any carbon-based feedstock. If a 175-pound man fell into one end, he would come out the other end as 38 pounds of oil, 7 pounds of gas, and 7 pounds of minerals, as well as 123 pounds of sterilized water. While no one plans to put people into a thermal depolymerization machine, an intimate human creation could become a prime feedstock. "There is no reason why we can't turn sewage, including human excrement, into a glorious oil," says engineer Terry Adams, a project consultant. So the city of Philadelphia is in discussion with Changing World Technologies to begin doing exactly that.
    "The potential is unbelievable," says Michael Roberts, a senior chemical engineer for the Gas Technology Institute, an energy research group. "You're not only cleaning up waste; you're talking about distributed generation of oil all over the world."
    "This is not an incremental change. This is a big, new step," agrees Alf Andreassen, a venture capitalist with the Paladin Capital Group and a former Bell Laboratories director.

The offal-derived oil, is chemically almost identical to a number two fuel oil used to heat homes.</font>

I just realized how long my post was by including that whole article from Discover. I've cut it down to a more manageable size and have posted the rest of the article for dowload here, for those who wish to read the full text (it's very interesting by the way, even if you aren't into this whole alternative energy subject - it's quite a clever idea). I've zipped it and put it in rich text format so you can read it if you're on a PC, Mac, Linux box or whichever flavor OS you may happen to run.
 
Whoa! How did I miss this? I think the first few times it went by I thought it was in regard to flashlight hybrids. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I agree with many of the responses in this thread. The "hybrids" being discussed in the article are a vain attempt to cash in on the craze. Improving mileage is great, but why not really fix the problem instead of these pathetic Band-Aids? Detroit doesn't seem to have a clue while Toyota drives circles around them.

[ QUOTE ]
Steve K said:
Of course, an EV would be just as handy in that scenario, but EV's aren't as easy to purchase (right Darrell? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif )

[/ QUOTE ]Grrrr. Right. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[ QUOTE ]
My own situation involves bike commuting 80% or 90% of the time, so my 32mpg Acura Integra sits at home a lot. Mostly it gets used for long trips or weekly runs to the stores.

[/ QUOTE ]Bingo. Feels nice to be part of the solution, huh? Few folks are taking the time to realize that even if they own a gas-guzzler, there is much that can be done to conserve. NOT driving is pretty high on the list. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Quite seriously though, somebody driving a hybrid every day is doing more damage than somebody who drives an Integra once a week.

[ QUOTE ]
I tend to think that hybrids are an interim step towards the next technology. They do provide improvements in some cases.

[/ QUOTE ]If a hybrid replaces a belching relic of yesteryear, or if it is purchased instead of a gas-guzzler, I'm all for 'em. My view is that they're quite a generous step BACKWARDS from where we've been, however. Eventually, we'll likely make baby steps back forward to where we were in the late 80's. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif The main reason I like hybrids is because they'll create a market for batteries that will go up in energy density, come down in price, and eventually the auto makers won't have an excuse not to make EVs.... again.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Mednanu said:
Solar is free.
It can power your house for free.
It can recharge your car for free.
It has the ability to keep Oil-funded nations from flagrantly spending their oil profits on terrorism (but it's gotta be all or nothing - if they are still selling oil to someone, the terrorism funds will still be rolling in).

[/ QUOTE ]
Not only CAN it do all these things, but it DOES do all these things. Anything that is a proven technology TODAY deserves even more credit than "can!" You've seen my page, yes? http://www.darelldd.com/ev/solar.htm I have quite a small array, and it fuels our car and powers our house. I pay a minimum energy bill of $5/month, and that's it. If every house was built with roof-top solar in mind, this product (in reasonably sunny locations) would be cost-effective in short order. Mine was cost-effective from the first day I flipped the switch, but I'm a special case. In some shopping malls around here we have shade structures made out of PV panels. The expense really isn't all that much more than if it had been roofed traditionally, actually. The parked cars benefit from the shade below, and I benefit from charging (yes, these places have public chargers) from the clean fuel the panels provide. Now how cool is that? Anybody else like the idea of fueling the car (for free!) while you shop?

[ QUOTE ]
Only problem right now is the battery technology - it still doesn't hold enough.

[/ QUOTE ]That was true 14 years ago when the last "production" EV was designed. Not so true today with the new chemistries. We have literally doubled energy density every year for the past six years. Li-Ion is an amazing chemistry that allows for light energy storage and impressive range. This isn't some future technology, it is being used in an EV right now with exceptional results. Take a look here: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/batteryTechnologyComparison.html and you might be surprised at how far we've come in a very short while. Most folks think that EVs will be using lead-acid for some reason...

[ QUOTE ]
I would actually be for a hybrid that was more electric than internal combustion

[/ QUOTE ]Say. Are you married?

[ QUOTE ]
- this would allow the car to run on gas after you hit the 120 mile 'wall' and the battery gave out

[/ QUOTE ]That "120-mile wall" has been pushed out to 300 miles as of last year.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Mednanu said:
Bio diesel would be perfect for the rest of the market (and almost instantly available) until practical EV's and alternate power generation sources were finally a reality ( ie - large scale fusion generation ).

[/ QUOTE ]Well, I'm glad I got my propsal in early, because now I'll be fighting over you with ikendu too. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

You know what thrills me the most with threads like this? That some people are actually *thinking* about this stuff, and that they obviously care. Somehow we just need to convince the auto makers and policy makers that we aren't gonna sit around waiting for the next high-margin SUV to come off the line. We need to start coming up with the answers now (well, more like 30 years ago!) before this energy business comes to a head (again).
 
LOL - Somehow I knew Darell wouldn't be sitting this one out for long ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
The D-man can 'smell' EV in the air from far, far away.

Oh, by the way. The '120 mile wall' I had referred to was the longest range fully EV, production model that I could find about 6 mo ago. I think it might have been a GM offerring, but cannot be sure (I've since forgotten). I'm sure they've got proto's and experimental homebuilts that go much further. I was just thinking of something to use for commuting to work everyday (it's about 84 miles round trip and I WILL be using the A/C most of the time - I'm a polar bear that deosn't like the CA heat ). I figure that the A/C would easily eat up another 40 miles in range and possibly leave me SOL on the side of the road someday if I were to only be able to go 120 miles on a charge. I could probably do it on 180 miles / charge - this would afford some leeway and allow for battery degredation over the years.

If you know of a production model that does 300 mi and costs somewhere in the $20k range, please, let me know - I'm looking to buy a new vehicle soon.

I would actually consider building an EV from scratch if I knew how to get around all of the CA regulatory red tape in making it street legal and able to be insured. I personnally think I could make a much better vehicle than what is being offered today, at a substantial savings over factory cost. It would actually be an awfully fun project if I could afford the initial investment in the solar panels for the roof so that I could charge the thing when I came home everyday.
 
Mednanu there are companies that specialize in Ev conversions, this would be a way around the red tape because you are starting with a street legal, crash tested vehicle. I've thought about putting an electric motor in my S-10 a couple times and make a hybrid. Being smaller and lighter than the full size trucks I would have it easier there.
 
As some of you know, we have been driving a hybrid for over a year now and love it. When we bought it, we had no illusions of saving money on gas. We bought it for the following reasons:

<ul type="square">[*]Cool gadget factor
[*]By buying a hybrid, we are voting with our wallet for cars with bigger batteries, electric motors and less gas usage. As their popularity continues to grow, these technologies will improve and the costs will come down.
[*]Use less gas
[*]Produce less pollution (in fact, a hybrid produces less pollution than the gas it saves because of the more constant RPM, etc of the engine.
[*]Longer lasting (less wear on the brakes, engine, etc)
[*]Smoother/quieter handling
[/list]

I also added a bunch of LEDs to the interior/exterior dropping power consumption by over 90% for the affected lighting systems. The car has over 160 LEDs installed. Of course, the fuel saved by the LEDs will take years to equal the cost of the LEDs but that is not why I added them.

Darell, of course I would want to use solar because of the decrease in net pollution but could you point me to any numbers that show that either new photovoltaics now being sold no longer loose some of their generating capacity each year or that the loss is reasonable.

Peter
 
Hi Peter,I was wondering what model hybrid do you own and if you could tell me some real world gas mileage figures(in town and highway)? Thanks
 
Peter most solar panels loose about 90% of their rated capacity in 25 years. {edit by Darell: I'm almost positive that Brock means that panels RETAIN 90% (lose 10%) of their capacity in 25 years). Then 25 years later again then will be at 90% of what they were at 25 years old. So in 50 years were talking about 81% of their original capacity.

There is some thought that the poly crystalline modules (look like a bunch of individual cells on the panel) hold up better over time and that mono crystalline (looks smooth speckley black) are at about the 90% range. The mono crystalline are a bit more $ and make more power per square foot. Not a big deal if you have lots of space, but if space is at a premium I would look in to mono. If you have the space you will get a lot more power per $ with poly.

Darell I think you have poly right?
 
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