I think I killed my first Li-ion cell

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Stress_Test

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
1,334
Victim: Tenergy "18650" 2600mah Li-Ion

Time of death: apx 10:00pm

Condition: Victim found unresponsive at 2.75 volts

Murder weapon: Fenix TK11

Method: Light left on low mode too long





R.I.P. :poof:


Moral of the story is, don't count on "protection" circuit to save the cell, and monitor lithium lights when in use, rather than using in "set and forget" tailstanding roomlight mode.


:rolleyes: :ohgeez:
 
You put it in the charger for a second or so to see if it would come back up? I have charged Li Ions that were that low and they came out of it ok. I put in on for a bit to see if the voltage would change, and if it did, I continued charging. One of mine got below 2 volts and survived. Trick is not to leave it in a really low voltage condition for any length of time; get it on the charger as fast as you can. Just do not assume it is dead forever, or you have truly lost a Li Ion.

Bill
 
Hmmmm...

To properly care for li-ion cells you need to be able to continuously monitor the battery voltage. This is practically impossible to do.

Most lights of quality mfg. are designed to maintain "full" brightness for the life of the battery's charge. With that being the case, how in the hell are you going to know that the battery is getting low on voltage before it's too late? Well, you can't! You have to rely on the protection circuit and it is not reliable.

Some say that you should always keep your cells fully charged. Easy to say, hard to do. If you need your light for extended periods of use, you are going to have to guess at how long to run it before replacing or recharging the cells. Heaven forbid you should over discharge and destroy them. This can be a mind-boggling job!

The point is that either the battery manufacturers have to come up with a foolproof low voltage cutoff (regardless of amp draw) for their cells or flashlight manufacturers will have to put digital volt meters on their lights. Of course the user would be responsible to actually look at the meter now and then, also.

Unfortunately, li-ion battery technology is best for digital cameras, cell phones, power tools and the like. Not so good for the way "flashaholics" use them.

I am hoping for a 21st century answer to this persistent problem.
 
CPF'ers are mostly using Li Ion cells carefully, I think. We CPF'ers will use the Li Ion cells for their high voltage potential, fairly high current capabilities, and excellent capacity, until something better comes along. We have an advantage of information here on CPF, information that points us to the risks and benefits of Li Ion use. Already circuits are being developed, via CPF, for our flashlights that allow for low voltage detection, and makers of flashlights will, overtime, produce more Li Ion specific lights with built in protection.

Bill
 
I checked the cell again today, and it was up to about 3.2, so it's possible it may be able to be recharged again.

I guess when you're using li-ion in high-power mode on a light, it's pretty obvious when the voltage starts to fall off, but in a low mode setting (like I was using) it may be too late by the time you notice it.

In any case, it was just a fairly cheap Tenergy cell.

I'll try getting some EagleTac and see how they do. Seems like I saw a test result where these cells' protection circuit would actually shut them off as the voltage fell.
 
not even dead yet, unless it already was. i have taken many cells down to the protection level 2.4-2.5v and they aint dead yet. just recharge them Soon when taken down that far.

the protection is just that the last ditch protection that alledges to keep the battery within the specs, most of the specs say ~2.4v , so the protection didnt yet get a chance to work, and the light dwindling in output and running low when the battery is that far discharged is not a problem at all, its actually better than pounding the cell with more current when it is at its low point.

this is all good not bad, sure try and kick it back up out of that low point, but i wouldnt sweat over it, many devices take a battery ALL the way down to the protection, and dont even concider slowing down.

being alert and aware as to what is occuring, is also a good thing, beings your more alert and aware than other consumers, and even devices themselves that use li-ion, seems your all set, its everyone else that should worry :-)
 
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To the OP: Just curious if you noticed any kind of low voltage flickering? I thought I read somewhere that the tk11 would flicker when the voltage started getting low, but I cant find it now.
 
i think below 2.7v is not the end of the world as long as it climbs up again to above 3v. Most liion charger wont start charging below certain voltage. I see that your cell now at 3.2v, might be worth a try to charge it and see if its start charging. Since at 2.7v you charger probably refuse to charge for safety reason.
 
Um....

I have a headlamp that normally takes 2 CR123s and contains a buck regulation circuit. I have updated the LED with a lower Vf Seoul from the old Luxeon and almost always use a single 17670 in it.

Towards the end of the discharge, it starts to dim slightly, and I am normally using the headlamp in the garage with the lights on to provide auxiliary lighting on the subjects I am working on, this means that I don't normally even notice when it starts dimming because it's just auxiliary, and the steady dimming at the end happens at just such a pace that I usually don't notice until it's like, *really* dim....

Pretty much every time I use that headlamp in the garage, I wind up discharging the cell to ~2.75V (give or take).

I've been cycling a pair of blue label protected AW cells (WAY back in the day, like from back when I first joined), in this thing for a long time now, the cells are still in pretty darn good shape. They hold a charge well, still have decent run time, stay cool during charging.. More than likely, they have done so well because I always get them to a charger pretty quickly (within 5-30 minutes) of noticing that the headlamp is "dead."

Try not to make a habit of it if you can manage it. but don't let it ruin your day either.. The cells I have been doing this to for so long have more than paid for themselves hundreds of times over.

Consider the following: Cycle life ratings for li-ion cells are based on an 80% depth of discharge (~3.7V Open Circuit), moderate to slow discharge and charge rates, 4.20V maximum charge voltages. Most li-ion cells are rated for ~300-1000 cycles. Your Tenergy cells are rated as ">500 cycles."

Cycle life is logarithmically and inversely proportional to depth of discharge. Cycle life is also inversely and logarithmically proportional to charge termination levels.

With a brand like Tenergy, we can't always trust the data sheets to be accurate, but, assuming that in their data-sheet, they suggest that the minimum recommended discharge voltage is 3.0V, based on one article I was reading recently, it suggested that most li-ion cells will take a ~66% hit on cycle life for every 0.3V below their recommended minimum discharge voltage they are cycled to...

In other words, assuming that you used the cell at perfect 80% depth of discharges through it's entire life, you might get 600 cycles before it drops to 80% of it's original capacity. Assuming that you discharged to 100% each time, (~3.0V), you might get 250 cycles before dropping to 80% original capacity. Assuming that you discharged to 2.7V each time, you might get 80 Cycles.... Discharged to 2.4V, cycle life would be something like 24 cycles....

The point being, that all of these options would technically be pretty much "OK" provided that the cell was retired at the appropriate point in it's life (80% of original capacity). The repeatedly over-discharged cell might technically be slightly more dangerous in some respects, but not severely so IMO, (since it's "shelf life" would like be so much shorter to boot, there are other factors that would not be effecting it as much)..

One could translate, and say that your 2.7V discharge was the equivalent wear and tear of 7 or 8 regular 80% depth of discharge cycles. Oops, life goes on....

-Eric
 
Well, with my work schedule this week I can't really charge it up again, because I want to have plenty of time to monitor it during and after charging, and overnight charging doesn't sound like a good idea.

I've read where a lot of people say it isn't good to leave a cell in a discharged state, but I'd rather lose the cell (won't recharge) than risk having a lithium fire while I'm asleep or away.

Consider this a test of what happens if you let a li-ion cell sit in a discharged state for a few days before recharging (like my forum name, Stress_Test! Get it? :popcorn: )
 
I would do as Bill is suggesting and just try to get it on the charger for a few minutes when you have a chance. Doesn't have to be a complete charge, just try to bring it back up to above 3.5-3.6V and it will suffer far less wear and tear in the mean time.

-Eric
 
Okay, I charged the cell and it came back up to about 4.20 and didn't get hot or anything (I checked periodically). Now I think I'll let it sit for a while and see if there's any self discharge going on.

If it holds charge, I'd say it's good to go.
 
My first Li-Ion death may have happened as well...I have 4 AW RCR123s that I use in my M60 equipped SF 6P and have used them for a couple of years now. Not sure how many cycles, but I have used them quite a bit in that time, but never left them with a low charge for very long. When I first got them, I ran them down until the protection circuit turned the light off a couple of times, due to my own ignorance. :ohgeez:

Well, a couple of weeks ago, I put a couple freshly charged in my 6P, and when I ran the light for about 5 minutes, the light shut off. I thought that maybe I grabbed the wrong pair of batteries, so I charged them up and the same thing happened again. They both read over 4V, so I put one of them in my Quark 123 and ran it on Max for quite awhile with no problem, so I put the other in and within a minute, it shut off. It still read 4.1V, but the light repeatedly shut off when using that cell. I tried charging it, thinking that may be the problem, but the light consistantly shuts off when using that cell after only a minute or two.

What's going on here? Have I killed it somehow? I don't dare to mess with it too much more, for fear of it going :poof:
 
Hello Toohotruk,

Sounds like the protection circuit in one of the cells there has "bit the dust."

The cell itself is probably still in pretty decent shape, but this is the one area of li-ion tech that still needs some work for flashlight applications. Regardless of brand, the PCBs seem to be the most likely failure point. AW cells have had a lower occurrence of failure historically compared to other brands, but they aren't perfect...

You may find that the cell is still usable in lower drain applications. But it may just be time to pick up another pair of cells to use with the M60.

-Eric
 
You are right, the damaged cell will run my Q123 on lower levels just fine...might have to just use it for general use with the Quark, since I seldom use the higher levels.

And I was actually thinking about getting a couple of 17670s for use with the M60 (I've read they actually run pretty well with a higher capacity single Li-Ion cell), and for my Ti Quark 1232 that I have coming in a month or so.
 
... And I was actually thinking about getting a couple of 17670s for use with the M60 (I've read they actually run pretty well with a higher capacity single Li-Ion cell),

It's an excellent configuration if you don't mind slightly less output. Fresh off the charger it will basically look like it's at 100%, (though it may be a hair under), it will steadily decline through the run, but deliver much better runtime overall.

-Eric
 
I'll be ordering a couple of 17670s in the fairly near future...in the meantime, I still have a couple of AW RCR123s that work great in the 6P. ;)
 

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