im a backwards tint snob

[Johnnyh]

I definitely lean toward whiter light for most purposes...but not blue...can't do blue...or green...no green...(might indeed be a tint snob, ok, I am...) For me , the 219c 5700 is the best of both worlds. Great color rendering and virtually without much tint either way. Pretty much just daylight white. But the only thing is, I see it in only in HDS lights...Why don't more manufacturers offer it? Not enough power/ efficiency?

 

[idleprocess]

For me , the 219c 5700 is the best of both worlds. Great color rendering and virtually without much tint either way. Pretty much just daylight white. But the only thing is, I see it in only in HDS lights...Why don't more manufacturers offer it? Not enough power/ efficiency?

The tighter the desirable binning, the more difficult a LED is to procure - and in volume it may well prove impossible.

 

[CLB]

I am a little confused. I thought the tint snobs (that I call the Tint Mafia) picked out the sickly yellow or greenish hues in neutral lights for us. How hard is to get cool white wrong? It's always bluish.

Good point, Chillinn. It is easy to speak too loosely about tint. Not to sound pedantic, but tint and color temperature are two different qualities of light. Color temperature measures the appearance of light ALONG the so-called Black Body Locus (BBL). When a "black body" (say a piece of blacksmith's iron, or a filament in an incandescent bulb) heats up, it begins to radiate light, from red hot through orange, yellow, white, and ultimately blueish white hot. Tint, on the other hand is a measure of the deviation of hue FROM the BBL (either above or below the BBL line). A positive deviation shifts the color toward green; a negative deviation toward magenta--regardless of color temperature. You can think of color temperature as a horizontal axis (red>orange>yellow>white>blue), and tint as a vertical axis (green>magenta). So when someone speaks of "neutral" white, they could mean one of two different things. They could mean a neutral white color temperature, meaning one that is neither yellowish nor blueish; or they could mean a zero deviation from BBL, meaning neither green nor magenta. Generally speaking, I think true tint snobs are more concerned with the deviation (Duv) from BBL: that is, the magenta-green axis, not the yellow-white-blue axis. This is because the Duv (the true tint measure) is more unpredictable and difficult to make uniform in LED manufacturing, and it is rarely specified in the manufacturer's listings. Color temperature, on the other hand, is almost always specified, and makes it trivial to predict whether a light will look yellow, white or blue. 6500K is 6500K, regardless of the LED brand or size or bin.

 

[staticx57]

@CLB

 

[CLB]

Exactly, staticx57, thank you. A picture is worth a thousand words.

 

[DaveTheDude]

This note is not intended to hijack the thread, but rather to amplify what appears to be an unstated theme, involving the biological source of differences in color perception. Seven years ago I experienced an impact to my right eye that resulted in a synthetic lens replacement. The synthetic lens is crystal clear and utterly colorless, and allows my right eye to see color without any of the long-wavelength filtering that is commonly caused by the gradual curing of organic lenses, which naturally occurs after decades of exposure to the sun's UV light. The contrast between the two perceptions (organic left lens v. synthetic right lens) is astonishing. Without elaborating overmuch, just be aware that your preferences as to color temperature and tint are likely to be influenced, at least in part, by the degree that your eyes' natural lenses have "cured" over the decades. You just may be looking at the world through amber-hued lenses.

 

[chillinn]

Exactly, staticx57, thank you. A picture is worth a thousand words.

I have read other explanations, but reading yours was the first time it sunk in. Thx.

This note is not intended to hijack the thread, but rather to amplify what appears to be an unstated theme, involving the biological source of differences in color perception. Seven years ago I experienced an impact to my right eye that resulted in a synthetic lens replacement. The synthetic lens is crystal clear and utterly colorless, and allows my right eye to see color without any of the long-wavelength filtering that is commonly caused by the gradual curing of organic lenses, which naturally occurs after decades of exposure to the sun's UV light. The contrast between the two perceptions (organic left lens v. synthetic right lens) is astonishing. Without elaborating overmuch, just be aware that your preferences as to color temperature and tint are likely to be influenced, at least in part, by the degree that your eyes' natural lenses have "cured" over the decades. You just may be looking at the world through amber-hued lenses.

Fascinating, but color is definitely subjective. Usually there is no way to know if someone perceives colors differently, but still knows them by their names. It seems an accident of evolution that we perceive the range of what we know as visible light rather than some other range. And I am still not sure color actually exists. What does color weigh? What does it feel like? Objectively we can say it is such and such wavelength of light, but it still seems like it could be imaginary.

 

[Johnnyh]

I have read other explanations, but reading yours was the first time it sunk in. Thx.




Fascinating, but color is definitely subjective. Usually there is no way to know if someone perceives colors differently, but still knows them by their names. It seems an accident of evolution that we perceive the range of what we know as visible light rather than some other range. And I am still not sure color actually exists. What does color weigh? What does it feel like? Objectively we can say it is such and such wavelength of light, but it still seems like it could be imaginary.

Wow...these are heavy musings! I'm flashin' back to the 70's! [emoji41]

 

[jon_slider]

For me , the 219c 5700 is the best of both worlds. ... I see it in only in HDS lights...Why don't more manufacturers offer it?

the 219c is brighter than the 219b, but that makes no difference in an HDS since both are set to 200 lumen output

other makers offered 219c but it made too much heat at high output, so makers moved on to XP-L Hi and gave up on CRI. HDS was late to the party. They usually choose LEDs with Green Tint and low R9 CRI, and the 219c meets that criteria.

Now the HDS choice of LH351d follows the same trend, greener tint, and lower R9 than 219c, but more lumens.

the brighter the LED, the greener the tint and the lower the R9 CRI (the red bar)

Charts courtesy of maukka


here is a 5000k LH351d (note the R9 is below 50 and the tint is above the BBL (positive number)

and here is the SST-20, better R9, tint still above BBL, but not as bad as the LH351d

for contrast, here is a Low CRI LED that is very popular with the high lumen users who dont care about CRI, and dont mind tint on the green side of the BBL:

you can see it has tint above the BBL (duv 0.0012), and the Red output is non existent (negative R9)

 

[KITROBASKIN]

slider, there is no doubt, raggie would not have any problem with me asking you a (barely) tangential question in this thread: What is a relatively efficient, perhaps larger die LED that gives 4000K to 4500K with a total lack of green tint but not the too rosy stuff either. The tint of a New Mexico high altitude cloud about 6:30 in the morning of a late summer day is what I'm looking for, without any gray, if maybe just a little tiny bit of yellow/red. When shined on the skin of a human like yourself, you will look hale and hearty but realistic. It will be powered by a single 26650 and be used at lower light intensity most all the time. Thanks if you can answer, no sweat if you can't.

 

[jon_slider]

What is a relatively efficient, perhaps larger die LED that gives 4000K to 4500K with a total lack of green tint but not the too rosy stuff either.

the LED you might like is the currently very popular
LH351d 5000k,

it gets better with the dome shaved, comes down to 4500k and reduces the green tint completely, without getting rosy, plus as you requested, it has a larger die, and higher output.

I dont know which present lights offer LH351d in 26650 host,
it is available in an HDS (16340/18650).

Anduril hosts you may want to consider:

for 26650

Emisar D4SV2 26650
it offers a 4000k SST-20 that is high CRI

and
MATEMINCO MT07 w 4000k SST-20

the SST has higher R9 but less lumens and smaller die, than LH351d


if you are willing to consider 18650:

for more bling including trit slots:
Noctigon KR4 Ti+Copper offers 4500k E21a
Those LEDs have outstanding color rendering, they are my second favorite High CRI LED. They have much less pink tint than 219b..

if you dont want a fancy multi LED light, the simple single LED, Anduril host to consider is the Lumintop FW1a, available with 4000k SST-20

 

[KITROBASKIN]

Great information, really appreciated. Love the experienced copper.
Been hoping The Fraz here at CPF will build one of his flashlights for me, but need a good emitter for an area light inside at night.
It's been a while now, that we've been taking nightly walks with the Zebralight Samsung LED in 4000K, while the wife uses a Zebralight SC62d Luxeon 5000K. The Samsung is an occasionally distracting yellow for a walk but may be OK for interior lighting. There is some green if you look hard. I don't think shaving domes is an option with The Fraz, though that might be just about right, based on your lower photo. It should be said however, that photos comparing different tints can make a good LED look 'off'. The 4500K Nichia 219B does really well in actual use without another light source creating a bias, as has been previously discussed and demonstrated with slider's participation.

 

[jon_slider]

I think you would like the 5000k LH351d,
its a good match for daylight adapted applications

I recommend the 5000k E21a even more highly
but Im not up to speed on which brands are offering those options

 

[seery]

I'm a huge fan of cool white.

The X65 is our all-time favorite all-around light and its cool white tint is the cat's meow.