Interesting thing about voltage I'm learning...

Alero

Enlightened
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Oct 19, 2007
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I got some protected 17500's for my lights that take the 3xAAA in the little holder and they are working great! I found an unusual piece of PVC that fits the flashlight tube and battery perfectly on all of my lights.

Anyway, the lights with a single LED (mostly Luxeon 1w and 3w) work great! They are super bright and the battery lasts a long time.

But in the lights with multiple 5mm LED's, there is a problem. the lights are about the same brightness, but they get hot. I've never had a 5mm LED get hot before! Something about the forward voltage? I just don't see why these batteries could be causing the problem. But it's interesting!
 
If they're getting hot, you're absolutely raping the 5mm LED's, and you've probably halved their lives (which aren't tremendously long to start with). A 5mm LED shouldn't be seeing more than 40ma if you want semi-acceptable lifetimes.
 
I think the lights with multiple 5 mm LEDs are usually the cheaper kind of light and they don't have a regulation circuit, they just direct drive the LEDs from the battery. These lights rely on the high internal resistance of an AAA alkaline cell to limit the current. Since a 17500 Li-ion cell has a much lower internal resistance than three AAA alkalines in series it can supply much more current and it overloads the LEDs. Too much current through a 5 mm LED doesn't make it brighter it just makes it hotter.
 
fun stuff eh... I can *probably* explain what is happening: In the process I'll be throwing in other tidbits here that will help explain more un-asked questions along the way :)

3AAA powered LED lights are getting a "free ride" of sorts. Since the set of 3AAA cells delivers power very close to the Vf of many LEDs while under a load, they can be used "direct drive" or with nothing more than a small resistor in line. The result is no driver being required. It's almost guaranteed that if you buy a 3 cell LED light, it is taking advantage of this coincidence and fixing whatever minor variation there is with a simple resistor: So adjusting the power source even slightly, can have a substantial impact on the behavior of the light, since the performance of the light is built around a delicate balance between the battery pack, a possible resistor, and the Vf of the LED/LEDs.

Keep in mind that an LED is, a diode. It doesn't behave like a "normal" resistive load. The Diode is very sensitive to input voltage. even just slightly higher input voltages can result in substantially higher current, different LEDs react to voltage variation more violently than others.

The Luxeon series LEDs have a "gentler" angle of attack on their response to voltage input than most 5mm LEDs. For example, Taking a LuxI: Lets say the LED operates at 350mA with 3.6V applied (~1W), and in order to "bump" it up to 700mA you have to boost voltage to 4.1V (~3W).

LuxI lights are based on the same die as a LuxIII, only difference is that a LuxIII has a better thermal path both can handle more than ~1W and 3W respectively within reason. Provided the heat doesn't get too far out of control, a LuxI will handle 2-3W operation without much trouble, and a LuxIII will handle 4-5W operation without much trouble.

A 17500, while quite similar to a bank of 3AAA cells, does behave differently. From a fresh charge, a 17500 can hold above 4V into the loads we can expect in these lights for at least 10-30% of it's discharge, a set of 3AAA cells will, at these loads, only be delivering about 3.6V give or take. I must stress though that with alkaline, there is an initially very high level of performance, probably over 4V total just like the 17500, but it only lasts for maybe 30 seconds at these loads, it drops to a more reasonable ~1.2V per cell pretty rapidly and then continues falling from there.

Anyways: The 1W/3W Luxeon lights, when driven by the 17500, do get driven a little harder, but not enough to cause any substantial concern. Lets say in the 1W lights the LED *normally* sees 3.6V, and now, with the 17500, through the resistor, it is seeing 3.75V, sure it might be running at like 2W for awhile, but it's just not that big of a deal.

Anyways, lets switch gears to the 5mm LEDs, these suckers, might operate at their rated 20mA at 3.6V, but rocket to 100mA at 3.8V. These configurations are usually resistored, but not always, a LARGE bank of 5mm LEDs, like say, enough to draw 1A or more safely, will almost always "draw down" a set of AAA cells low enough to balance out and not overdrive the LEDs too bad. Changing the power source here, can have a massive impact. Assuming a 28 5mm LED array, it should draw about 0.5A all together with 20mA per LED, even a slight increase in voltage would make this thing try to draw as much as 3-5amps or more, but since AAA cells just can't handle that kind of current, the voltage will always sag to a reasonable level for the LEDs, perhaps as high as 1A (or around 40mA per LED) on really fresh alkaline cells, but never much more than that. The problem with the 17500, is it can easily deliver several amps while holding above 3.7V. Which results in massive overdrive in this configuration.

Does that make any sense?
 
mdocod, what a perfect post!

I can verify this at first-hand with the big-power 128-5mm showerhead.

Mine came with 6AA in battery carriers, and not liking the battery carriers, I swapped out for 2 x unprotected 18650.

The torch had a short and very merry life. The light output briefly rivalled my RoP, before all the springs and contacts melted, and the springs in the battery carriers shrivelled up.

The torch was full-direct-drive, no resistor. It was designed to utilise the internal resistance of zinc-carbon AAs, if you don't mind. To drag six cells in series right down to less than 4V. Totally silly design.

How to remedy the situation - well, the barrel was too skinny for D cells and too short for 3xC cells, so 3 x wrapped SubC, with some hard-wiring made the torch absolutely perfect.

But mdocod's lesson was learned the hard way.
 
Excellent post mdocod,the explaination you gave was right on time...its guys like you that make it a much easyer grasp for those who aren't inclined:candle::candle::candle:.
 
...Does that make any sense?

Thanks, mdocod. This is scary: it is starting to make sense to me. Even though I have a 5 gal. bucket full of torches of various sorts including the WOF prototype from EL, I still consider myself a noob. Wayne has often said that the Vf of an LED is more important in his DD designs than the lumen rating, since the Vf determines amps which governs lumens out. I think I screwed up his design by using NiCd's, since at the same V they are capable of pumping out more amps/heat/lumens than the NiMH's he used for his testing/design.
 
Hi there,

I've had my LEDs in at least two lights now get hot as heck.
I mean so hot that they start blinking on and off fast.
I've had this happen in the lights with several 5mm white LEDs in them.
One light has 7 LEDs and the other has 9 LEDs.
The only solution seems to be to add a 2 ohm resistor in series wtih the
battery.

The problem seems to come about when using NiMH cells instead of alkalines.
The NiMH keep their voltage up higher than alkies when delivering current and
that's what gets the LEDs. The added resistor limts the top end current and
stops this from happening.
In my 7 LED light i ended up pulling out three LEDs and replacing them,
while in my 9 LED light i caught it before any LEDs could burn out completely.
 
I have a 9-led light that also flickers, both on alkaline and nimh. I just assumed it had crappy conductivity between batterypack and head, because it usually works better if I scratch the metal on the head and pack with something sharp. Or smack the light when it starts flickering.
 
On many multi-LED lights, the contact inside the head between the switch and the LED board is a spring.

This might need re-positioning, or if it is too unreliable, just solder a wire straight from the switch to the board, and ditch the spring altogether.

Mind you, doing this counts as a resistance fix and could exacerbate the problem described in this thread...
 
The Luxeon series LEDs have a "gentler" angle of attack on their response to voltage input than most 5mm LEDs. For example, Taking a LuxI: Lets say the LED operates at 350mA with 3.6V applied (~1W), and in order to "bump" it up to 700mA you have to boost voltage to 4.1V (~3W).

LuxI lights are based on the same die as a LuxIII, only difference is that a LuxIII has a better thermal path both can handle more than ~1W and 3W respectively within reason. Provided the heat doesn't get too far out of control, a LuxI will handle 2-3W operation without much trouble, and a LuxIII will handle 4-5W operation without much trouble.

Hi Mdocod,

Thanks for your informative post. Does that mean that a LuxI and LuxIII will give the same brightness, if driven at the same voltage, only that the heat generated will be different? As in, they are different only in the ability to handle higher voltage and current?
 
Both the LuxI and LuxIII will generate roughly the same amount of heat energy for a given input power within their acceptable ranges, (the efficiency is going to be about the same), the only difference is that the LuxIII has been built with a better thermal path to dissipate the heat. So the LuxIII will tolerate the higher drive level for longer without destroying itself, as more of the heat can be moved to a heat-sink more freely. Since the LuxIII "dumps" heat better, it will run at a lower temperature provided there is ample heat-sinking, so when you get above ~2W, it will start to pull ahead of the LuxI in output, purely as a result of running cooler at the die which results in better efficiency.



Almost funny even talking about it though, considering how completely crap the LuxI and LuxIII are compared to modern LEDs. Many incans produce more lumens per watt than those old pieces of garbage.
 
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Both the LuxI and LuxIII will generate roughly the same amount of heat energy for a given input power within their acceptable ranges, (the efficiency is going to be about the same), the only difference is that the LuxIII has been built with a better thermal path to dissipate the heat. So the LuxIII will tolerate the higher drive level for longer without destroying itself, as more of the heat can be moved to a heat-sink more freely. Since the LuxIII "dumps" heat better, it will run at a lower temperature provided there is ample heat-sinking, so when you get above ~2W, it will start to pull ahead of the LuxI in output, purely as a result of running cooler at the die which results in better efficiency.



Almost funny even talking about it though, considering how completely crap the LuxI and LuxIII are compared to modern LEDs. Many incans produce more lumens per watt than those old pieces of garbage.

I see!! Thanks mdocod for your swift reply! Think I'm beginning to understand LEDs better now! Think that explains why both my nobrand "1W led" and "3W led" seems to be almost the same brightness" haha
crackup.gif
. Time for me to learn how to drive the 3W harder! :).
 
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