Is it time for a global switch to lithium primaries?

[Fallingwater]

As the use of electronics increases, I see more and more gadgets that place heavy energy requirements on their AA cell(s). Hardly anybody at all uses carbon-zinc cells anymore, and even alkalines are starting to be inadequate for many applications.

Since it seems the future of battery power lies in lithium-based chemistries, I'm thinking the time might be coming for the world to stop producing carbon-zincs altogether, relegate alkalines to low-power duty and shift to mass production of lithium primaries.

If lithium AAs were produced in as much quantity as alkalines are today their prices would surely go down noticeably, and they'd become a very useful alternative even for people who wouldn't want to shell out more money for them today (like me).

What do you think?

 

[tebore]

I think the small problem is Energizer owns the patent on AA and AAA lithium batteries.

Energizers would make 9Vs too but Kodak owns that I think.

Someone fill me in and correct those.

 

[Brock]

While I would agree that if they were produced in larger quantities they would be come less expensive, the real problem is lithium is pretty expensive by itself. So maybe making more li cells might push the demand for li up and the cost might go up with it?

 

[moldyoldy]

Although I agree with the idea of Lithium-something cells/batteries because of the relatively low self-discharge rate and high energy density, I am changing my battery usage habits cautiously. I remember too many fires in aircraft emergency locator beacons during early use of Lithium batteries. Furthermore, current CPF postings reference spontaneous rapid dissasembly events with Lithium and Lithium-Ion cells .... Nevertheless, at a local church where both Ni-Mh and Lithium cells are in use, the staff and teachers prefer to utilize the lithium cells in flashlights rather than Ni-Mh cells. The main reason for the preference of Lithiums? The self-discharge in the Ni-Mh cells is prohibitively high. Cells (Sanyo, Sony) charged less than a month ago turn out to be essentially useless and have to be recharged before use. Still, regular alkalines are horrible for high-current devices.

 

[Marduke]

I think you're skipping the obvious choice here, NiMH for direct replacement alkalines in high current draw applications. Especially LSD NiMH

 

[PhotonBoy]

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01/30/beyond-peak-oil-are-we-facing-peak-lithium/

"Forget peak oil. Are we facing peak lithium?"

 

[2xTrinity]

Yep, from what I understand, Lithium cells can't really get any cheaper due to economy of scale, as the lithium metal itself is scarce. Lithium primaries have never made a lot of sense to me-- especailly not now when it's possible to buy Eneloops for the same price as e2 Lithiums!. ROI after the second charge cycle is not bad at all! Sure the capacity on a single charge less, but IMO that is more than made up for as NiMH has the advantage of the ability to be topped off at any time: If I've burned halfway through a lithum primary cell, I'm not going to throw it away and put a new one in just to start off at a full charge in my device, but I often will replace a battery of unknown state of charge with a fresh eneloop, and dump the partially used on on a charger.

I personally would like to see almost every devices use the system that a lot of small portable radios use now -- user-replaceable NiMH AAs, with a charger built into the device, allowing wall-wart charging, or hot-swapping, as needed.

Of course, I don't expect disposable cells to go away anytime soon. The battery companies would much rather people burn through $100/year in lithium primaries than buy a $20 NiMH starter kit once...

 

[Fallingwater]

I think you're skipping the obvious choice here, NiMH for direct replacement alkalines in high current draw applications. Especially LSD NiMH

Energy density is higher in primaries, and this can be useful in certain situations.
Besides, the idea would be that mass-produced lithium primaries would be considerably cheaper than LSD NiMH.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01/30/beyond-peak-oil-are-we-facing-peak-lithium/

...or not. I hadn't thought about this. Always thought Li was as plentiful as, say, coal...

Only one thing:
>the Zebra batteries apparently tolerate cold and hot temperatures well, something lithium batteries generally don't.

Huh? Aren't people who live in cold climates always advised to use lithium cells?

2xTrinity: keep in mind that the chargers in cheap radios and such are often terrible and just do constant trickle charging.

 

[Marduke]

Energy density is higher in primaries, and this can be useful in certain situations.
Besides, the idea would be that mass-produced lithium primaries would be considerably cheaper than LSD NiMH.

Not by that much.

NiMH: 1.2v x 2700mAh = 3.24 watt hours
Lithium Primary:1.5v x 2900mAh = 4.35 watt hours

but by the second time you charge the NiMH, they become cheaper.

 

[TorchBoy]

Hardly anybody at all uses carbon-zinc cells anymore, ...

Maybe where you are. In this country they're still big sellers, even with people who you'd think should know better. When most people see that they can buy a couple of dozen AAs for a few dollars, they just think "Cool, cheap batteries! I don't need to spend six times as much for those Eneloop things." And they never seem to figure out that they don't last very long at all.

As for the article, lithium ion batteries are pretty established. (Has anyone tried to buy a cellphone with any other sort of battery recently?) It didn't really address the idea of peak lithium, either.

 

[moldyoldy]

I have to admit that the slow-selfdischarge "eneloops" are correcting a bad problem with high capacity Ni-MH cells of the 2500mah and above range. Whether that is sufficient to slow down the trend towards Lithium somethings is not up to me. I know from my acquaintances in the police forces, they prefer either the large D/C cell Maglights or they switch to CR123 lights if they want something bright. The Lithium batteries are quite predictable. On the other hand, the big Maglights can make a car window disappear in seconds...

 

[radellaf]

The trend is for devices with custom LiIon packs. I don't like these at ALL, because mfgrs often stop making packs within the 5 year useful lifetime of the 1st pack. Many aren't user-replaceable at all.
Size is a factor in many cases, but I wouldn't discount the financial incentive of non-replaceable or proprietary packs.

i.e., The Sony NP-FM50, used in a lot of equipment over a long period of time by Sony, is now $70 dollars! You can still buy them, but they are a ripoff.

I think the eneloops are of great benefit to consumers, as long as companies still use AAs or AAAs in devices that are large enough to fit them. Lithium rechargeables, so far, just won't work in those applications because of their voltage. Many devices can be damaged by the Li primary AA cells as well. They'll toast the bulb in many AA flashlights for instance.

 

[shadowjk]

I think the small problem is Energizer owns the patent on AA and AAA lithium batteries.

Energizers would make 9Vs too but Kodak owns that I think.

I accidentally when surfing stumbled upon a website with links to several major chinese battery manufacturers, of which atleast one was offering private label 1.5V lithium AA and AAA... No prices on their website, and minimum order was, oooh about 5 tonnes...

 

[Fallingwater]

NiMH: 1.2v x 2700mAh = 3.24 watt hours
Lithium Primary:1.5v x 2900mAh = 4.35 watt hours

Normal NiMH cells can rarely be used as direct replacement for alkalines. LSD cells can, but the numbers aren't as good (2.4 watt-hours).

The trend is for devices with custom LiIon packs. I don't like these at ALL, because mfgrs often stop making packs within the 5 year useful lifetime of the 1st pack. Many aren't user-replaceable at all.
Size is a factor in many cases, but I wouldn't discount the financial incentive of non-replaceable or proprietary packs

Most appliances can have packs hacked together from batteries meant for others.
But I agree, of course. What I'd like would be common devices made to run on user-replaceable 18650 or 16340 cells...

The Sony NP-FM50, used in a lot of equipment over a long period of time by Sony, is now $70 dollars! You can still buy them, but they are a ripoff.

The FM50 contains two 18500 cells. Crack it open, replace the cells with two 18500s from DX and you have a new FM50.
Or just buy them on eBay...

 

[Marduke]

Normal NiMH cells can rarely be used as direct replacement for alkalines. LSD cells can, but the numbers aren't as good (2.4 watt-hours).

Except for very low drain devices such as remotes and clocks, NiMh can almost always be uses as a direct replacement for alkalines. Lithium primaries have a greater risk of not working properly in a AA device than NiMH, due to their higher voltage when new. NiMH vs Alkaline vs Lithium >> 1.42 vs 1.5-1.6 vs 1.7-1.8

But most modern electronics are designed for, and truly excel when used with NiMH.

 

[TorchBoy]

Normal NiMH cells can rarely be used as direct replacement for alkalines. LSD cells can, but the numbers aren't as good (2.4 watt-hours).

Alkaline at 25mA: Average ~1.2V x 2.85mAh = 3.42Wh.
Alkaline at 500mA : Average 1.08V x 1.624Ah = 1.754Wh.
Alkaline at 1A: Average 1.07V x 0.9Ah = 0.963Wh.

Some figures from SilverFox's testing of Energizer Max.

The numbers aren't good, no.

 

[cave dave]

I frankly hope disposable anything doesn't catch on. I think maybe the material in Lithium batteries aren't so good for the envornment either. They really should be recycled. They are also much more dangerous if treated poorrly or ingested, something to consider if you have small kids in the house. Think vent with flame and outrageously toxic gases.

NiMh is much better for the envornment, chemically as well as the reuse thing. Better for your wallet too. Plus a freshly charged AA eneloop will outperform a half dead Lithium AA anyday of the week. So unless you are somewhere where you can't recharge or its really cold I think Lithium primaries aren't particullary worthwhile.

I still use them for backpacking, some in my Cave pack and car and house for emergencies, & smoke detector. I rarely use them for day to day use. My EDC's all work great on Rechargables of the RCR or Nimh variety.

 

[paulr]

cave dave has it right, lithium primaries fill some specialty niches and I use a few of them; alkaline is good for low drain devices like clocks and 5mm led lights, but nimh is preferable for just about everything else.

 

[radellaf]

Particularly obnoxious are iPods (&iPhones), and every digital camera using a different cell. I think Palm started it when they dropped 2xAAA for some sort of rechargeable, at which point I dropped Palm (well, also, their volatile memory system). I am rather impressed at the aftermarket iPod battery offerings. Must be the size of the market, otherwise nobody would be suggesting picking apart a nano to regular consumers.

NP-FM50: I did take one apart to see what was in there, but it's sonic welded so it doesn't exactly 'crack', I had to saw it open with a hobby plastic saw.

Batteries Plus stores have a great _idea_ in having the equipment (probably) to take a pack like that apart, and spot welders, but their pricing makes it useless. $100 to open and replace 4 cells in a small laptop pack. $30 for a shaver. I may pay them for this Ryobi drill I have, weird 5 cell center tap NiCd Sub-C thing, as it's a rly nice drill.

---

As for the subject of this, yeah, for most purposes Eneloops have replaced my alkalines & lithiums. Not in the car, though, and not where I want to find full cells after 3-10 years in storage.

And not for these darn CR123 flashlights... (will be trying AW's LiFePOs soon, Inova T3)

 

[Brock]

One of the neater things I have seen and I don't know if they still make them is a company was making cell phone batteries that held AA or AAA cells. They also had them for other common things like laptops and cordless tools. Obviously size is an issue, but I used 4 AAA NiMH in my cell phone for a long time, and it was on 24x7 for a week between charges and really nice to know I drop alkaline AAA's in there in a pinch. I was a larger pack then the original battery and added weight, but worth it in the long run for me anyway.