Is the Aviator A2 an evolutionary dead end?

[andybingley]

Will the Surefire A2 (great light everyone seems to love it) and proposed Streamlight Twin Task Lights be around for long? or once 5W or better LED's come online will these hybrids rapidly disapear?

 

[JohnK]

Nope, the 5 watt will eat batteries like a starving grizzley. The LED/Xenon lights will meet a very broad need; i.e. a combination of long run time with adequate 3/5/6/10 LED's, with a Tac light Xenon option. There will be variations of course, but this type of combo will be VERY popular for a LONG time.

I do see a variation of a 1/5 Watt Luxon with a Tac light Xenon option. Don't know how you would fit two main bulbs/LED/Xenon in a reflector, but they will figure it out.

 

[SteveD]

Hmmm...if they put the A2-style regulation in a xenon-only light, would you buy it? I would - well, if I could afford it ;-) While I don't yet own an LED light, I suspect the color-thing will keep xenon alive even if LED brightness gets to xenon level.

If you draw the lumen/watt curves for both xenon and LED, are the curves parallel?

 

[shrap]

I can envision an Surefire L2 with a 5 watt LS, two stage tailcap in the same vein as the L1.

It remains to be seen which will eat batteries faster, a regulated 50 lumen Xenon (A2) or a regulated 5 watt LS.

 

[FalconFX]

It's too bad they chose conventional LEDs in the A2 instead of 3 1W LSs, even if they were underdriven. And the LEDs aren't even regulated in the A2; only the xenon...
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohgeez.gif

 

[McGizmo]

I would be the first to admit that I am dangerous when it comes to my ignorance about electronic circuits but I think in the case of three 5 mm LED's running on 6 Vin, a simple resistive circuit might be the most efficient. I say this because I am led to believe that there is a certain "overhead" in power required to run constant current drivers; regardless of the current output. I am guessing that this overhead is more power used than the voltage drop by the resistors in the A2's LED circuit.

In any case, I think the three LED's are a perfect alternative or compliment to the regulated incandescent. I swapped the 500's out with 312's for even more of an even and wider flood which is great for what I want out of this light. In the A2, not only do you have two greatly different levels of light output, each mode has its own photon management scheme. This is something that will not be the case with dimmable or variable output single light source programs. I have L1's with NX05 and McFlood optics and am always wishing I could switch from one to the other with a push button. I'd want the low level on the McFlood and the high level on NX05 or parabolic reflector ideally. The A2 takes care of this consideration for me.

If I could dictate the controls, the only change I would want to see on the A2 would be for a simple clickie on the tail and a separate high/ low switch elsewhere. Perhaps a collar switch at the head. If electro/mechanically doable, I would be happier with the tail switch clickie dedicated to the incandescent and a separate circuit and switch for the LED's. For tactical applications, I can see real merit to the existing switch program but I'm not tactical or even tactful. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

As far as evolutionary dead end, I don't think that is necessarily the case. The LED's have a long way to go before they can provide full spectrum, tightly focused light in a diameter of similar size to an incandescent. Perhaps the incandescent in the A2 evolves to a 5 or 7 watt HID down the road but I don't see the A2 as being on an evolutionary path that drops off to nothing.

- Don

 

[Size15's]

You will I hope have noticed that SureFire's product development uses technology and concepts developed across it's range over a period of time.
The A2 pretty much brings together more concepts and technology then any other SureFire.

The A2 has a major advantage because the LED's can be a different colour to the main beam. The L1 shows that two-stage output is possible from a Luxeon and if an "L2" is made with a 5W Luxeon it will be very popular but still not be able to provide low red output and high white output.

You'll have noticed that the 5W Luxeon SureFires have deeper reflectors because the Luxeon source is significantly larger than an incandescant filament. A deeper reflector is required to create a meaningful and useful beam from a 5W Luxeon. Deeper reflectors mean larger bezels and this could be an important consideration for an EDC light.

Bulbs have many years of life left - a decade at least I guess for the general public. SureFire will continue to push forward the technology - I doubt I'll be using SureFire filament bulb models in a couple years time.

The A2 is a significant flashlight and I think it'll be around for a good while yet!

Al

 

[tsg68]

I think that the regualtion is the best technology gleaned from this light as most people I know would be better served by the evolution of Luxeon technology. I do fine with an LSH-P and C2 as EDC and were it not for the defensive prospects of the C2 I would just leave it at home. Nichias, aside from the Photon and AAA style just don't stroke me like a great Luxeon. Now if only Don McLeish would come up with a back to back adapter for a Surefire to Arc LS connection, we might have something! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Remember, it is speculated that at one time there were seven early human subspecies walking the same area competing for the same resources and we are the product of that competition. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

 

[Alan Hsu]

I would love to see a 1x123 version of SF A2.

 

[Lebkuecher]

I am looking forward to seeing reviews for the Streamlight Twin Tasks. I would love to have an A2 but finding it hard to buy with the Twin Task priced so low. I already have a LSH-P for a EDC, so I’m not sure how I can justify buying a A2. Any one think that the A2 price will drop when the Twin Tasks become available?

 

[Size15's]

The A2 price is already low - it is significantly more advanced that the cheaper imports. Streamlight isn't going for the same market. I doubt SureFire will need to compete with Streamlight. Streamlight and SureFire aim at different users.

Al

 

[Joe Talmadge]

What's the Streamlight TT's output from the xenon light? Not specs, but how it compares to an E2 or A2? Based on runtime, I'm guessing it's an unregulated 30 lumens or so?

Joe

 

[JohnK]

I doubt SureFire will need to compete with Streamlight>>>>>>>>>>>>

They already are. Streamlight has the majority of the cop market, and others, who are looking for a great quality light they can get out of a pouch or pocket without shredding themselves on all the gizmos attached to them.

My goodness Al, I have to find out what the Surefire gurus are doing for you. Supplying girls or something ?

There are other companies putting out absolutely splendid lights that don't cost the price of a good used Volkswagon.

 

[Lebkuecher]

I already own a LSHP so I feel like have proven when the package is there I will pay the price. All I want is for Surefire to come up to base and produce something worth the money.

The led is not regulated and the size to function is pretty much a joke. I’m not saying that the Streamlight is the way to go but Surefire needs justify their price for a A2 for me to buy. (Not that they probably care) From what I see, Surefire is overpriced for the market for a hybrid. What am I missing?

 

[Size15's]

"Streamlight has the majority of the cop market, and others"
Yes. So Streamlight are up against Maglite in this mass-market area.

SureFire supply lights to specialised LEO and Spec Ops units - WeaponLights and "Tactical Lights". This is SureFire's core market. How many MP5's or shotguns do you see SureFire dedicated forend WeaponLights on for example.

SureFire produce specialist products for specialist users. Of course they have "duty" rechargeables but it's not SureFire's area of focus unlike Streamlight that has gained significant market share.

Because Streamlight buy many of their products in from large scale factories outside the USA it can provide the duty light market. When a Spec Ops team wants to discuss their illumination requirements they can visit SureFire in California and I bet if they wanted; have all the people who make SureFire's Illumnination tools sat round a table.

I'd go so far to say that SureFire's core market use products that aren't even released to the public. When I visited SureFire I realised just how small scale and specialised they were - their focus allows them to easily tailor make products for users. Of course SureFire's WeaponLight option list is huge to start with!

I get the impression that SureFire "flashlights" are part of the developement of SureFire WeaponLights and used to try out new concepts.

Al

 

[Size15's]

Lebkuecher,

I believe you are missing that the incandescant bulb is regulated. As McGizmo has mentioned; regulating the three LEDs would be less efficient. There is no practical need.
The regulated bulb is another matter - the ability to have constant output means the quality of the light and the capacity of the SF123As is maximised. It is also a test to see whether regulating more models is possible/worth doing.

SureFire develop technology for more than just one product. The A2 is certainly not the end of the evolution.

The two-stage Pressure switch is another concept that SureFire have put to good use on the A2 - the ability to transition between output levels/beam colours just by changing the pressure you apply is very useful. Cycling through output options with a click or timed switch is not as simple nor as fast.

We come back to the point that SureFire can not keep up with demand for the A2 - I assume from this that the product is being used and is proving useful although it is early days with the A2 not even a year released.

The great thing about CPF is that here we can see almost all the flashlights avaliable and pick the ones we need/want.

I can't go back to an E2e and fiddling for a Photon/ArcAAA when the A2 does what I need in a single package.

Others need different illumination requirements.
The A2 remains the best flashlight I have ever EDC'd.

Al

 

[McGizmo]

[ QUOTE ]
Lebkuecher said:
I already own a LSHP so I feel like have proven when the package is there I will pay the price. All I want is for Surefire to come up to base and produce something worth the money.

The led is not regulated and the size to function is pretty much a joke. I’m not saying that the Streamlight is the way to go but Surefire needs justify their price for a A2 for me to buy. (Not that they probably care) From what I see, Surefire is overpriced for the market for a hybrid. What am I missing?


[/ QUOTE ]

Starting with your last question, what are you missing, well I think you are missing quite a bit in terms of design, materials and function when it comes to the A2. Whether these things have value to you is your call but the price of the A2 IS justified. The LED's aren't regulated. Well would regulation of three LED's be more efficient? Size to function is a joke? I love humor but see no joke here. Currently there isn't another light on the planet available for purchase like the A2. From a design and function stand point, forget about price, how would you improve the A2? How about some constructive criticism and lay out how SF missed the mark with the A2. If it's simply a case of the A2 not being a flashlight you find utility in, that's fine. You say the LSHP is justified in price. Using this as a base, I think it would be easy to build upon the design and components used in the LSHP and arrive at the A2 and justification for its price. Now these are apples and oranges and if you prefer oranges, what is the point of being critical of an apple for not being an orange? If the A2 has failed in some sense of design criteria, function or size, please explain so that I too may see the light. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

- Don

 

[Brock]

[ QUOTE ]
The led is not regulated and the size to function is pretty much a joke.

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I missing something? I can't think of ANY light that is this size that is brighter. To get noticeably brighter you need to get in to the 6P size with the P61 lamp or in to the 3 cell lights. I am really confused as to what is brighter then the A2 and smaller?

[ QUOTE ]
I’m not saying that the Streamlight is the way to go but Surefire needs justify their price for an A2 for me to buy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I look at it like carrying the Opalec and E2e in one package. The cost is very close to the two of them, a bit more, but then again it is regulated and the E2 isn't regulated. The beam on the A2 is whiter and stays whiter thought the life of the batteries.

Maybe you have heard me say this before but I used to drop a new set of 123's in my E2 after about 20 min of use because I am a white light junkie, with the A2 I can run 50 min straight or 60+ min if I use it intermittently and always get that fresh battery white beam.

I guess if you don't mind the yellowing beam, and not so smooth beam, and carrying 2 different lights then this light isn't for you.

 

[McGizmo]

Well Al beat me but I beat Brock! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[tkl]

...the lengths we go to so we can justify our toys...... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif