JetBeam RRT-0 Cold Weather Operation

[andrewnewman]

There is an electrical lubricant that a lot of companies use on moving electrical contact parts. It is supposed to be neither a conductor of its own or an insulator. That is because in the liquid state it is such a thin film so as not to inhibit contact yet still provide lubrication and help keep contacts in good shape so that they don't readily oxidize.

However. I have had experience with this mystery fluid in the past where it collects moisture out of the air and then it will freeze and cause contacts to separate from each other. I used to find this in potentiometers that had this material in it to minimize resistor element wear from the wiper. Moisture would get in on non sealed elements over time. If the RRT uses this fluid (and the thin film amount being used would be almost invisible even if you opened up the parts) and that area is not sealed from the outside environment then eventually it could bring in moisture and have contact problems when cold beyond that of battery performance. This would not be noticeable ever if you weren't cycling back and forth well below freezing temps.

Thanks! That's the best explanation I have heard yet! In fact it is consistent with the behavior I have noticed. The light only warms up minimally in my hand but just past the point where moisture is condensing on the surface from the temperature change. Next test is to leave it out on the wood pile for an hour in the cold and then sneak out and try it.

From all of the reports that others are providing, I am thinking that this problem is idiosyncratic to my flashlight not the entire RRT-0 line.

 

[HKJ]

I put a freshly recharged AW16340 in my RRT-0 and let it stay in the freezer the night over (That is -18 to -20 degrees Celsius).
It will still turn on, but when I turn it on I can only select max. for a few seconds, before it goes down in output.
A few minutes later and there are no more problems with max.

 

[MrGman]

thanks Yalskey.

For those guys who find out that it is in the rotating collar switch mechanism the best you can do is dry it out with a medium heat. You don't want to bake this thing out but taking it up to about 150 degrees F not C to help drive any moisture out of this lubricant for up to 30 minutes would be good.

Again, that's Fahrenheit not Celsius. You do not need to go above 160 F which is 71 C. that's plenty. And of course take the battery out for the dry out session. that temp shouldn't hurt the flashlight itself with no battery in it. Again this will be temporary and will only help for those with a switch moisture issue. If you got weak or poor battery chemisty batteries that shut down early, this won't help at all.

 

[andrewnewman]

thanks Yalskey.

For those guys who find out that it is in the rotating collar switch mechanism the best you can do is dry it out with a medium heat. You don't want to bake this thing out but taking it up to about 150 degrees F not C to help drive any moisture out of this lubricant for up to 30 minutes would be good.

Again, that's Fahrenheit not Celsius. You do not need to go above 160 F which is 71 C. that's plenty. And of course take the battery out for the dry out session. that temp shouldn't hurt the flashlight itself with no battery in it. Again this will be temporary and will only help for those with a switch moisture issue. If you got weak or poor battery chemisty batteries that shut down early, this won't help at all.

Alright I believe I have "proven" that it is moisture condensing when the cold flashlight is brought back into a warm space. I will be placing it in a 150 degree dehydrator for 30 minutes tonight w/o battery. Apropos your point about this being only temporary, should I assume that the lubricant will eventually reacquire moisture?

 

[MrGman]

Alright I believe I have "proven" that it is moisture condensing when the cold flashlight is brought back into a warm space. I will be placing it in a 150 degree dehydrator for 30 minutes tonight w/o battery. Apropos your point about this being only temporary, should I assume that the lubricant will eventually reacquire moisture?

If it did it the first time, it will do it again and again, slowly over time. If you live in an area where there is a lot of moisture then there is nothing to stop if from being drawn back to the same source. Obviously you want to keep it clean and dry. Things like good ole pocket lint that can accumulate in cracks and crevices of something can also attract moisture. Especially the cotton lint of a good ole fashioned pair of blue jeans.

But basically if it has the lubricant film and it slowly attracted moisture into it the first time, there is nothing from stopping it from repeating the process other than to make the part totally bone dry, which would probably be more detrimental in the long run.

I could make a ridiculous suggestion about having a dessicant drybox filled with silica gel crystals that you keep dry by baking out once a week or so and put your flashlights in there when you aren't carrying them and then see if they are more or less prone to this problem without having to bake out the flashlight itself, but that would be something only a ridiculously serious scientific mind type flashoholic would do.

You can get silica gel crystals in bulk quantity in some brands of Kitty Litter that say Silica Gel right on the label. It would have to be baked out first as it doesn't come in "bone dry" condition for its primary use.

I only keep about 6 pounds of that stuff in my gun safe with 6 dessicant indicators that stay blue.

something like $29 a pound at a gun show and $6 for the 6 pound container at the pet supply store. The clay stuff doesn't draw moisture out of the air 1/10th as well as Silica Gel crystals.

 

[andrewnewman]

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread. After experimenting last night I determined that 3-5 minutes in the cold when turned on but not in my hand is sufficient to cause the light to go off at 25 degrees F. This is with a new primary Lithium CR123 battery. Whether this is related to moisture-saturated contact lubricant or a straight up thermal fault, it makes the light less than useful.

I dropped a note to Flavio at BugoutgearUSA and he has graciously agreed to make an exchange.

 

[clintb]

Another thing you could try, and along MrGman's line of thinking, is stick your RRT-0 and some silica gel (desiccant) packets into a ziplock baggie, then suck the air out with a straw to minimize moisture. Put that in a freezer, or outside, and give it a try after sufficient time.

 

[MrGman]

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread. After experimenting last night I determined that 3-5 minutes in the cold when turned on but not in my hand is sufficient to cause the light to go off at 25 degrees F. This is with a new primary Lithium CR123 battery. Whether this is related to moisture-saturated contact lubricant or a straight up thermal fault, it makes the light less than useful.

I dropped a note to Flavio at BugoutgearUSA and he has graciously agreed to make an exchange.

This could be something more along the lines of a separated solder joint or broken winding wire of a potted inductor coil. The soldered component has no place to move to but can pull away during excursions to cold just enough to lose contact. A broken inductor that is wrapped or potted in a material that holds it all together can also do the same thing. Go cold and the material contracts and pulls away just enough to be an open circuit. Come warm again and contact is made. Surface mount components with one bad solder joint can do this forever. I have seen it many times. One good reason to do thermal cycling on all our military systems to see if they will survive the rigors of use all over the planet. I am doing some thermal cycle testing on some components right now.

 

[was.lost.but.now.found]

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread. After experimenting last night I determined that 3-5 minutes in the cold when turned on but not in my hand is sufficient to cause the light to go off at 25 degrees F. This is with a new primary Lithium CR123 battery. Whether this is related to moisture-saturated contact lubricant or a straight up thermal fault, it makes the light less than useful.

I dropped a note to Flavio at BugoutgearUSA and he has graciously agreed to make an exchange.

Love to hear a follow up to this.

 

[Balog]

Has there ever been a resolution of this? Is it the lube (and if so can you change the lube?) or a defect in certain lights or...?

 

[andrewnewman]

Yup. The follow up was that this appears to have been a singular faulty light. I have yet to hear of anyone else having the problem. Flavio promptly sent me a replacement that doesn't exhibit the cold weather anomaly.

 

[tigman_tim]

My new (Nov 2011) RRT-0 XML ( s/n US4e0902 00211 bar code in box and s/n:43w 1010R5 on the body ) is having a cold weather issue like the above posts. The weather just got cold and my light will not work. It happens so far at temps 27 degF and below. I have a new CR123 battery. To test what is going on, left the flashlight body inside my warm house and put the flashlight head outside at cold temps. I bring the head into the house and connect to the body, no light. I then hold the head for a minute or so and then the light turns on. My question is: Do I need to send it to Jetbeam for service? Anybody else with similar issues? Thanks!!!

 

[fyrstormer]

It sounds like a defective unit. I've never had a light fail to work in cold weather. Nothing's perfect.

Also, batteries are powered by chemical reactions, and if the chemicals are too cold to react, the batteries won't produce power. There is no way around this, and there never will be. I find myself wondering whether Low Self-Discharge batteries like Eneloops might suffer especially badly, since they rely on a layer of distilled water to provide insulation against self-discharge. Once that water freezes, the battery should be as good as dead until it thaws again.

 

[DisrupTer911]

Could the metals be constricting at different rates and the magnetic ring is separating?

 

[fyrstormer]

Could the metals be constricting at different rates and the magnetic ring is separating?

The magnet is strong enough for the compass sensor inside the light to detect its position even if the magnet gets moved slightly further away from the shell of the light.

 

[DisrupTer911]

The magnet is strong enough for the compass sensor inside the light to detect its position even if the magnet gets moved slightly further away from the shell of the light.

Good to know then, that rules out that idea.

 

[tigman_tim]

Hi,
The latest test I did was:
switched the light on to a mid setting and verified the light was on. While the light is on, I unscrewed the head from the body and placed it outside in the cold about 18 degF. After 20 minutes, retrieved the head and screwed it back on to the body. It did not light, I left it tail standing inside the house. After 15 mins with out touching it the light turned on. When warm it operated normally. So, It's looking like I need to send my 3 month old RRT to Jetbeam for service. I am not happy.

 

[fyrstormer]

I wonder if the over-temperature sensor also has a sneak circuit that causes it to cut off if the temperature gets too low. Hmm. I'll have to test my TC-R2 when I get home. It *should* have the same circuitry.

Honestly though, while it should be fixed if there's a manufacturing defect, I don't think this is likely to cause problems in real life. As long as the light is on your person, it will never get that cold while you're still alive, and when it's turned-on, it will keep itself warm whether or not you're holding it.

 

[tigman_tim]

If that were only true. When the RRT is in my coat pocket it will get to the cold ambient temperature and not light. I cannot reliably turn this light on quickly. I going to accept that: I am one of the few people that got a bad light. I'll contact Jetbeam soon and get a return authorization for a replacement or repair. Thanks for the info!!!!!!!

 

[andrewnewman]

So this all sounds an awful lot like the problem I had that caused me to start this thread. Given that the light has gone through a gigantic number of engineering changes over the years, it seems odd that the occasional unit might still display this anomaly. Mine was also useless in the winter as I couldn't count on it to light up outside. Sometimes I could warm it up in my hands but if it was sufficiently cold even that wouldn't work. The replacement unit solved the problem but has a slightly damaged (bent) positive contact. This light is in my "almost great" pile. It also has an occasional anomaly where rotating the ring to the next detent doesn't increase the output but I have to rotate it past the click and back again.